Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[LSThiker]

c. Alcohol & Recreational Drugs. Cadets will not possess alcohol nor use any drugs that are prohibited under federal law, even if local law permits their use. Further, tobacco products and e- cigarettes are prohibited for cadets at CAP activities.

Nothing in there states a zero tolerance.

[abdsp51]

It's implied. Plus CAPR35-3 says a cadet maybe terminated for not obeying regulations.  Cadets may only appeal a 2b if the 2b is for cause or misconduct. 

[Flying Pig]

Without going back through a few hundred posts.... did we ever get an outcome update?

[LSThiker]

It's implied. Plus CAPR35-3 says a cadet maybe terminated for not obeying regulations.  Cadets may only appeal a 2b if the 2b is for cause or misconduct.

Implied?  No.  Command decision?  Yes.

[JeffDG]

It's implied. Plus CAPR35-3 says a cadet maybe terminated for not obeying regulations.

So, if a cadet shows up with the name tape on his BDU slightly askew, 2b?  Because that cadet is "not obeying regulations".

[abdsp51]

Nametape askew and use of unlawful substances are apples and oranges. 

[JeffDG]

To JeffDG: Hmmmm. I see your point. Haven't really gone over to many of the termination regs. Just going with my gut, which isn't always the best thing to do. An alcohol misdemeanor would be grounds for demotion, would it not?

Honestly, if it's unconnected with CAP activities, and the member doesn't act inappropriately around CAP members, what business is it of CAP's?

Regulations do not require it to be reported, it's not an exclusionary criteria for membership. 

[Alaric]

It's implied. Plus CAPR35-3 says a cadet maybe terminated for not obeying regulations.  Cadets may only appeal a 2b if the 2b is for cause or misconduct.

Implied?  No.  Command decision?  Yes.

To me its implied at CAP events, but no where else.  If a cadet has a glass of wine at dinner, with his parents permission in a state where it is allowed, don't see how CAP gets involved

[abdsp51]

To JeffDG: Hmmmm. I see your point. Haven't really gone over to many of the termination regs. Just going with my gut, which isn't always the best thing to do. An alcohol misdemeanor would be grounds for demotion, would it not?

Honestly, if it's unconnected with CAP activities, and the member doesn't act inappropriately around CAP members, what business is it of CAP's?

Regulations do not require it to be reported, it's not an exclusionary criteria for membership.

Agree.  However once reported it's a different story.  52-16 says cadets cannot touch it. 

35-3 defines not obeying rgulations as misconduct and grounds for termination.  So if Cadet Snuffy gets repirted for drinking he/she is violating 52-16.  Does this mean automatic termination no but can used as grounds for it.

So here's something for you what if the state defines alcohol possesion and consumptiom by a minor to be a felony then what?

Zero tolerance for use, possesion and consumption of illicit/illegal substances is implied within 52-16.  And let's be honest to many teenagers want to make adult decisions without the adult consequences. 

[JeffDG]

Agree.  However once reported it's a different story.  52-16 says cadets cannot touch it. 

Why, exactly, do you think that 52-16 applies to a member's conduct outside of CAP?

By the standard you expose, we cannot have Catholic cadets, because wine is an integral part of their communion.  Many other denominations as well. 

[abdsp51]

Agree.  However once reported it's a different story.  52-16 says cadets cannot touch it. 

Why, exactly, do you think that 52-16 applies to a member's conduct outside of CAP?

By the standard you expose, we cannot have Catholic cadets, because wine is an integral part of their communion.  Many other denominations as well.

Not my standard it's the orgs.  But by your own statements I guess you're encouraging ubderage drinking and illicit drug use. 

[JeffDG]

Agree.  However once reported it's a different story.  52-16 says cadets cannot touch it. 

Why, exactly, do you think that 52-16 applies to a member's conduct outside of CAP?

By the standard you expose, we cannot have Catholic cadets, because wine is an integral part of their communion.  Many other denominations as well.

Not my standard it's the orgs.  But by your own statements I guess you're encouraging ubderage drinking and illicit drug use.

Then it should be easy to cite a source for that.

And please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

[abdsp51]

By your own statements not mine.  52-16 says no use or possesion of illicit substances even if the state allows it.  It's there in black and white and the verbage is pretty clear.

Since we are CAP members  daily then the reg applies daily not when we want it to. 

But hey if you are cool with cadets using such things then more power to you.

[lordmonar]

JeffDG,

Our standards and rules do cross over to non-CAP time.

And it is good that it does so.

I mean we don't want any child molesters.....not just the one who molest on CAP's time. 

While I agree that what CAP don't know...CAP don't know....but then again if CAP don't know...then they can't take action.

When CAP does know......it then become the command decision of the leaders involved to take appropriate action.

Does this mean "ZERO TOLERANCE"...not in my book....but other commanders may interpret the regulations differently.

Anyone who thinks this is wrong....are free to take the issue up with THAT commander and his/her chain of command.

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform. 

[JeffDG]

By your own statements not mine.  52-16 says no use or possesion of illicit substances even if the state allows it.  It's there in black and white and the verbage is pretty clear.

Yep, cadet brings a beer to a meeting, or encampment, definitely CAP's business.

But hey if you are cool with cadets using such things then more power to you.

So, how do you handle Catholic cadets?

More specifically, I think what members do on their own time, unless it brings disrepute upon CAP, is none of CAP's business.

[JeffDG]

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform.

That's utterly false, and you know it.

If I go fly a private aircraft, I don't need a flight release, I don't need to file a flight plan if I'm going >50nm, or any of that.

CAP regulations apply on CAP time.  Hell, this message is in violation of CAPR 10-1, in that it lacks the appropriate header and footers for a message.

[JeffDG]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

[abdsp51]

1) I don't inquire about religon.

2) Agree to a point.  Once it's known it becomes CAPs business. 

One of the key aspects of this program is leadership and responsibility.  Make an adult decision deal with adult consequences.

[JeffDG]

1) I don't inquire about religon.

2) Agree to a point.  Once it's known it becomes CAPs business. 

One of the key aspects of this program is leadership and responsibility.  Make an adult decision deal with adult consequences.

So if a cadet talks about taking communion over the previous weekend, you whip out a 2B then, because, "ZERO TOLLERANCE", even though the regulations specifically mentions "at cadet activities".

[abdsp51]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise