Hunter Orange MOLLE Vest

[LSThiker]

Good point, no reason to carry both colors and switch mid search to legally cross onto state game lands, plus most GTMs will have orange, so why be the odd man on the team unless assigning a different color vest for a duty position for quick identification in the field.

Or for those states that require orange in hunting areas, a little politicking might be helpful.  Get with other SAR agencies or similar agencies and lobby for a policy change/law amendment that allows an exception to non-hunters or emergency personnel that authorize lime yellow. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

An exception for safety rules?

[LSThiker]

An exception for safety rules?

No, an exception on the color that would still allow the intent (high visibility) of the safety rules to be followed. 

[Samex]

Hello everyone,

It's very interesting to go through all the various posts about regulations and what would be best.  I can tell you from our point of view it varies.  For example, we just received an order from the Royal New Zealand Air Force.  They ordered all yellow gear.  We are currently in discussions with the Canadian military and they are looking at all orange.  So I guess the good thing for everyone is that we offer both.  We produce all pouches and vest in both hi vis orange and hi vis yellow.  I can tell you that so far all CAP orders have been hi-vis orange.

We just finished shooting our product video.  This is currently at the editing stage.  As soon as it's ready we will post it on our website so everyone can see the vest and the Breakaway Modular System and how it works.  If you go to our website www.dutyapparel.com, you will see that we uploaded some great new pictures of the vest.  You can see how the reflective striping looks for both the parallel striping and the X striping on the back.  We are unveiling all the new products at the 2015 Toronto Sportsman Show next week.  We will be posting some great pictures on our Instagram and our Facebook page. If you log on to our website and click the Facebook icon it will take you to our page.  Follow us on Facebook (and "like us") or Instagram to see the new products before they are posted on the website.

One of our new products which I haven't disclosed yet is an blaze orange windproof/water repellent pant with a built in attachment system that snaps into our vests.  This is a great product for Search and Rescue application.  So as you can see we continue to innovate and progress with some great new products. 

Roger Rondeau

On Duty Equipment Ltd - Duty Apparel

[Samex]

Hello everyone,

We just came back from the Toronto Sportsman Show where we introduced the 2015 line up.  We are currently working on adding all the new products to the website.  In the meantime, take a look at the following video.  It shows our hunting/search and rescue vest.  There are slight differences between this vest and the hi vis reflective version but the design and basic features are the same.

http://youtu.be/EfmIuUJj148

Roger Rondeau

On Duty Equipment Ltd - Duty Apparel

[Capt Thompson]

My vest took exactly 2 weeks from the order date, till it arrived at my doorstep. Not bad for being shipped from over the border. I got the vest, the medium pouch and the organizer pouch. None came with the new breakaway system, but I'm not sure I really wanted that anyway. I added a red molle first aid pouch I picked up for $15 at the local surplus store. With the 3 pouches, and all of the included pockets, I can pretty much get all of the required 24 hour gear stowed away neatly. I'm thinking of adding a butt pack to the back to hold the few things I couldn't fit in (mre's and tarp) but I don't know how I'll attach it without covering the reflective striping on the back yet. Overall I'm quite impressed with the quality of the vest. Once I finish assembling it I'll throw a few pics up of my setup.

[Samex]

Glad you like your vest.  We have a 3 in 1 pack that attaches to the back of the vest just below the striping.  This would probably suit your needs.  We had a vest on display at the show with this set up and everyone loved that feature.  I'll try and post pictures tomorrow of how it attaches to the back.

Roger Rondeau

[Capt Thompson]

Is the pack listed on the website sir?

[Eclipse]

Hello everyone,

We just came back from the Toronto Sportsman Show where we introduced the 2015 line up.  We are currently working on adding all the new products to the website.  In the meantime, take a look at the following video.  It shows our hunting/search and rescue vest.  There are slight differences between this vest and the hi vis reflective version but the design and basic features are the same.

http://youtu.be/EfmIuUJj148

Roger Rondeau

On Duty Equipment Ltd - Duty Apparel

Wow - I really like those suspender straps for weight distribution - would probably help a lot from the
typical "tip-back" you get with a vest that is heavy in the back.

[Samex]

Hello everyone.  Well we finally finished adding all the new products to our website.  These are in stock now and ready to ship.  Take some time and visit our website www.dutyapparel.com to see these great new products.  Don't forget, CAP members receive 15% discount on orders.

Roger Rondeau
On Duty Equipment Ltd - Duty Apparel

[TexasBEAST]

Re: Orange vs. Lime

CAPR 60-3 (2012) prescribes the SQTRs and task guides for each specialty rating.

And the Ground Team task guide (2004) prescribes reflective orange.

CAPR 60-3 (2012) prescribes either ANSI Class II orange or lime for CAP ground activities, but it does not spell out which colors shall be used for which particular ground activities.

The latest edition of CAPM 39-1 (2014) requires that ES items meet the respective NHQ/DO task guide.

And the GT task guide still prescribes reflective orange for GT ops.

So this would seem to mean that lime could theoretically be used for Flight Line Management or road guards. But GT still requires orange.

I wouldn't bother buying two different safety vests in different colors. Just go with ANSI II reflective orange, and you'll be covered for GT, FLM, and road guard duty. Three birds with one stone.

--TB

[Storm Chaser]

Re: Orange vs. Lime

CAPR 60-3 (2012) prescribes the SQTRs and task guides for each specialty rating.

And the Ground Team task guide (2004) prescribes reflective orange.

CAPR 60-3 (2012) prescribes either ANSI Class II orange or lime for CAP ground activities, but it does not spell out which colors shall be used for which particular ground activities.

The latest edition of CAPM 39-1 (2014) requires that ES items meet the respective NHQ/DO task guide.

And the GT task guide still prescribes reflective orange for GT ops.

So this would seem to mean that lime could theoretically be used for Flight Line Management or road guards. But GT still requires orange.

I wouldn't bother buying two different safety vests in different colors. Just go with ANSI II reflective orange, and you'll be covered for GT, FLM, and road guard duty. Three birds with one stone.

--TB

I think you meant CAPR 62-1, not CAPR 60-3, when you referred to the regulation that prescribes the approved safety vest types and colors. CAPM 39-1, Para 9.5.1, refers to CAPR 62-1 for approved vests. And while the 2004 G&UDFT Task Guide prescribes an orange safety vest, the newer regulations take precedence over it. Now, I personally prefer orange, but any ground team member wearing an lime green ANSI II safety vest would be within regulations.

[TexasBEAST]

I think you meant CAPR 62-1, not CAPR 60-3, when you referred to the regulation that prescribes the approved safety vest types and colors.

Yep yep. I coulda sworn that's what I typed. Oh well.

CAPM 39-1, Para 9.5.1, refers to CAPR 62-1 for approved vests. And while the 2004 G&UDFT Task Guide prescribes an orange safety vest, the newer regulations take precedence over it. Now, I personally prefer orange, but any ground team member wearing an lime green ANSI II safety vest would be within regulations.

That's not all that 39-1 says, though. 9.5 says,

Wear of Items Required for Emergency Services or Safe Operations. Items required to be worn by the various Task Guides as published by NHQ/DO are authorized to be worn with the USAF-style and Corporate-style utility and flight uniforms. [...] Commanders will ensure that these items meet the requirements of the NHQ/DO published task training guide[...].

While the 2012 62-1 authorizes either orange or lime for all ground activities, the 2014 39-1 says that the task guides lay out the requirements for ES operations, and commanders will ensure compliance with the task guides. The 2014 manual is newer than 2012 reg. So, using your reasoning, the 2014 manual trumps the open-ended 2012 reg.

And that newer 2014 manual points right back to the old 2004 G&UDFT Tasks. So, in a way, the old 2004 task guide actually still trumps the newer open-ended 2012 reg, too.

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAPR > CAPM > Taskbook.

[SarDragon]

CAPR > CAPM > Taskbook.

FTFY.

(CAPR = CAPM) > Taskbook

[Storm Chaser]

And that newer 2014 manual points right back to the old 2004 G&UDFT Tasks. So, in a way, the old 2004 task guide actually still trumps the newer open-ended 2012 reg, too.

With that logic, then we wouldn't be required to wear ANSI II safety vests either because all the Task Guide requires is for the vests to be orange and reflective. Yeah, I don't think it works that way.

[TexasBEAST]

Not at all.

What I'm saying is that since all of these various publications are still active, in-force, current pubs, then they should all be given credence. None should be viewed as really "trumping" the other, in totality. That's a zero-sum game.

When you have several pubs that deal with the same subject, and one is more open-ended and permissive, while the other is more restrictive and exclusive, then you should abide by the more restrictive publication. It's not that the open-ended one is wrong, but its provisions are narrowed and limited by the more restrictive pub.

39-1 says that CAP members can wear, what, 17 different uniforms? (I'm being facetious, but you should get my point.) But a unit or activity commander may prescribe wear of just one or two uniforms for certain functions, in the guise of the UOD. The more restrictive instruction should be seen as ruling out over the more open-ended one, in that specific instance.

62-1 says that either orange or lime shall be worn for CAP ground activities. That's open-ended. Unit or activity commanders may further specify beyond that which colors shall be worn for certain functions. It's pretty much always been that way. So the reg's open-endedness isn't absolute. It can be reined in.

The task guide is still in force, even 11 years later. It was never rescinded or replaced. In fact, the latest edition of 60-3 was published after 62-1, and 60-3 still requires use of the task guides. And then in 2014, 39-1 reiterated that the task guides are still binding when it comes to ES gear. And so, the GT task guide's provisions are still in force. Those provisions are more restrictive than 62-1's. Thus, reflective orange is still the prescribed color for ground and UDF team outdoor ops.

62-1 goes further by saying that vests must be ANSI II. That's more restrictive than the old language that merely said that safety vests had to be "reflective orange". OK, so those reflective orange vests called for in the task guide must now be ANSI II reflective orange vests. This supplements and further restricts the "reflective orange" description in the task guide, without contradicting it.

So the reflective lime stuff must be for some other activities besides GT ops. Flight line marshalling or road guards come to mind. This interpretation means that 62-1 is still correct; it is not invalidated or trumped by the task guide. But 62-1's mention of lime green isn't applicable to ground team. It's certainly applicable to some of the other types of CAP ground activities, though.

Interpreting 62-1 as authorizing lime green for ground team, when two different newer publications (60-3 and 39-1) both say that the task guide (and its provision only for orange) is still in force, would be an interpretation that 62-1 contradicts the task guide.

My approach honors and follows all of the various publications that deal with the same subject. It's not picking and choosing regs to follow, buffet style. it's following them all.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Or...option two - the guide is olde, and when the others were revised no one bothered/thought/wanted to deal with it.

[PHall]

Some of you folks have not "met" TexasBEAST yet. He is the Patron Saint of Blaze Orange!!! :clap:

Any attempt get him to forsake his beloved Blaze Orange is pointless. 

But have fun anyway!

[Storm Chaser]

I prefer orange too, but will not turn any ground team member away for wearing an ANSI II lime green vest. I think lime green works great for urban environments, but orange is better for wilderness ones. Personally, I have an easier time seeing someone wearing orange in the woods from a great distance than I do lime green.