Every Wing has a unique set of circumstances, and a unique personality.
What is one thing that makes your Wing unique?
I'll start with TNWG.
TNWG directly borders more other wings (AR,MO,KY,VA,NC,GA,AL,MS) and more other Regions (In SER, borders with SWR, NCR, GLR and MER) than any other wing in CAP.
GAWG has everything from mountains to swamps. So training between areas is a fairly onerous task. Up nort', where I am, we gots hills and mountains. Down sout' dey got swamps and lowlands, so we do a lot of cross training.
NVWG has a lot of empty space right in the middle......make the us vs them problem all that more pronounced.
Any wing level get together automatically mean 2/3 of the state will be driving 6-8 hours one way.
Sorta like Arkansas. Where I was, the next unit was either 50 miles south, or 110 miles north in Missouri. Lots of spread, lots of empty space.
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 29, 2015, 01:54:33 PM
Sorta like Arkansas. Where I was, the next unit was either 50 miles south, or 110 miles north in Missouri. Lots of spread, lots of empty space.
As someone who has lived most of his life in the rural west, those distances represent practically next door.
Where I grew up, we were 70 miles from the nearest paved runway, 200 from the nearest airport that had commercial carriers, and 60 from the nearest ambulance.
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 29, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
There is NOTHING in Illinois between Springfield and Chicago. Lots and lots of nothing.
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 29, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 29, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
There is NOTHING in Illinois between Springfield and Chicago. Lots and lots of nothing.
I take it you've never driven the road between Billings and Malta in Montana then. God, that one goes on forever.
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 29, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 29, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
There is NOTHING in Illinois between Springfield and Chicago. Lots and lots of nothing.
Philosophically or physically?
Actually, there's a lot of >dinner< between those cities (not that I enjoy watching it for hours in
its raw form).
I'm in Florida, Group 3. My group has more squadrons than some Wings! (This may or may not be true, but it feels like it and paints an accurate picture) Coming from an area where my squadron was the only active one for at least and hour, hour and a half drive, was an adjustment. There is always so much going on here and took some adjusting. I'm used to 10 members being a good meeting to now being in a squadron with 87 members. It seems Florida has many more supplements to learn to deal with the increased tempo of operations. But I think I am growing as a member here better.
RIWG has 4 units and my group has 6.
QuoteTNWG directly borders more other wings (AR,MO,KY,VA,NC,GA,AL,MS) and more other Regions (In SER, borders with SWR, NCR, GLR and MER) than any other wing in CAP.
MOWG also borders eight other wings (AR, TN, KY, IL, IA, NE, KS, OK) but only 4 regions.
Mike
Quote from: JeffDG on January 29, 2015, 07:45:17 PM
I take it you've never driven the road between Billings and Malta in Montana then. God, that one goes on forever.
Tell me about it! In New Mexico, we have miles and miles of miles and miles - some so desolate that they make adults say 'Are we there yet?'.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2015, 08:02:12 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 29, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 29, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
There is NOTHING in Illinois between Springfield and Chicago. Lots and lots of nothing.
Philosophically or physically?
Actually, there's a lot of >dinner< between those cities (not that I enjoy watching it for hours in
its raw form).
Both. I thought time was moving backwards at times. Trees became nuts, people regressed to babies, cars devolved into their separate components. So boring I lost IQ points I could barely afford to.
Grew up near Springfield, live near Peoria. I wouldn't want to live in Chicagoland - too expensive, too many people. Lots to do there, so I can visit for a weekend, but living there wouldn't be my thing. Lots of nice motorcycle riding here I think. If you have the type of personality that has to be entertained all the time by shiny blinky things I can see why it would be boring (there's my jab at the 'city folk', made in jest), but I look forward to corn coming up every year because it brings color back to the landscape and millions of dollars to local economies.
That said, I don't understand the hatred of people and places on the opposite side of 80 from you. I know some of it in jest, but some of it isn't. Get over yourself. I hear lots of people complain about 'Chicagoers' and vice versa - it has no place in CAP or modern society.
Then again, maybe I'm just the only person who can be civil and respectful about these things.
Chicagoers? That's a new one.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 30, 2015, 12:11:00 AM
Chicagoers? That's a new one.
I pulled an all night last night at work for an outage, I was grasping for a term that sounded like what some people I know down here would say :P.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 30, 2015, 12:11:00 AM
Chicagoers? That's a new one.
At least it has more then 4 letters.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 30, 2015, 12:02:54 AM
That said, I don't understand the hatred of people and places on the opposite side of 80 from you. I know some of it in jest, but some of it isn't. Get over yourself. I hear lots of people complain about 'Chicagoers' and vice versa - it has no place in CAP or modern society.
It's primarily a South thing. The people North really don't care about anything South, which
is part and parcel of the issue, but not related (directly) to CAP. It's more of a rural vs. city cultural
issue, tinged with plenty of politics because the people and the tax-base is rooted on the North.
It usually boils down to members wanting equal attention and resources, even though there aren't
an equal number of people involved. That just doesn't work mathematically, especially in a volunteer
organization where people are allowed to do "pretty much whatever they want".
If you're some place that needs help to get things moving, then it's understandable to be frustrated that
no one wants to take the drive, but by the same token, a lot of people have made efforts to take the
drive, lots of times, only to find no one waiting to help.
It's an issue that NHQ should address directly, either with a more appropriate structure or command imperative
regarding growth, but it doesn't appear to even be on the radar.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 12:29:11 AM
It's an issue that NHQ should address directly, either with a more appropriate structure or command imperative
regarding growth, but it doesn't appear to even be on the radar.
You know what?
You don't have to wait for NHQ to change things. Fix your problems locally.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 12:27:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 12:29:11 AM
It's an issue that NHQ should address directly, either with a more appropriate structure or command imperative
regarding growth, but it doesn't appear to even be on the radar.
You know what?
You don't have to wait for NHQ to change things. Fix your problems locally.
Please Grandpa, tell us how that works, exactly...
You can't fix systemic problems "locally". You can brute force them in your own AOR. BTDT.
That may provide some circumstantial, one-time successful activities, but it doesn't "fix" anything,
and those circumstantial successes evaporate with the calendar.
In fact, your response to your own question frames the situation quite nicely.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 29, 2015, 01:01:15 AM
TNWG directly borders more other wings (AR,MO,KY,VA,NC,GA,AL,MS) and more other Regions (In SER, borders with SWR, NCR, GLR and MER) than any other wing in CAP.
Why should bordering on more wings or regions be anything more then dinner conversation?
Because every one of those Commanders brings their own "spin" to what is supposed to be a
nationally standardized organization, and the whims and fancies of the members and staff
(or non-participation of same) can throw a wrench into even the most careful plan - the fact
that you bring it up means it almost certainly has on a regular basis.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 01:04:43 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 12:27:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 12:29:11 AM
It's an issue that NHQ should address directly, either with a more appropriate structure or command imperative
regarding growth, but it doesn't appear to even be on the radar.
You know what?
You don't have to wait for NHQ to change things. Fix your problems locally.
Please Grandpa, tell us how that works, exactly...
You can't fix systemic problems "locally". You can brute force them in your own AOR. BTDT.
That may provide some circumstantial, one-time successful activities, but it doesn't "fix" anything,
and those circumstantial successes evaporate with the calendar.
In fact, your response to your own question frames the situation quite nicely.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 29, 2015, 01:01:15 AM
TNWG directly borders more other wings (AR,MO,KY,VA,NC,GA,AL,MS) and more other Regions (In SER, borders with SWR, NCR, GLR and MER) than any other wing in CAP.
Why should bordering on more wings or regions be anything more then dinner conversation?
Because every one of those Commanders brings their own "spin" to what is supposed to be a
nationally standardized organization, and the whims and fancies of the members and staff
(or non-participation of same) can throw a wrench into even the most careful plan - the fact
that you bring it up means it almost certainly has on a regular basis.
It must be so comforting to live in your world. You're not really responsible for anything, because all the problems cannot be fixed except by NHQ, and since you're not with NHQ, it's not your responsibility.
In my world, I see a problem and I tend to take responsibility for coming up with a solution for it. If my solution is good, I expect it to spread to others similarly situated facing the same issue. It's how most organizations solve problems. Local level solutions that work are adopted at higher and higher levels. Instead of your one-size-fits-all-can't-do-anything-unless-NHQ-specifically-says-so approach, I don't pawn off responsibility on others above me to fix problems that I'm facing. Flexibility of subordinate units is a feature, not a bug. It's how you inject some creativity into the system, and creativity is what solves problems, not more and more rules from above.
Good God, I presented a unique situation. I didn't say it was something that makes my life hell, it's just that we have more interfaces to maintain with our neighbours. No big deal, but an interesting factoid.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 01:04:43 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 12:27:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 12:29:11 AM
It's an issue that NHQ should address directly, either with a more appropriate structure or command imperative
regarding growth, but it doesn't appear to even be on the radar.
You know what?
You don't have to wait for NHQ to change things. Fix your problems locally.
Please Grandpa, tell us how that works, exactly...
You can't fix systemic problems "locally". You can brute force them in your own AOR. BTDT.
That may provide some circumstantial, one-time successful activities, but it doesn't "fix" anything,
and those circumstantial successes evaporate with the calendar.
In fact, your response to your own question frames the situation quite nicely.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 29, 2015, 01:01:15 AM
TNWG directly borders more other wings (AR,MO,KY,VA,NC,GA,AL,MS) and more other Regions (In SER, borders with SWR, NCR, GLR and MER) than any other wing in CAP.
Why should bordering on more wings or regions be anything more then dinner conversation?
Because every one of those Commanders brings their own "spin" to what is supposed to be a
nationally standardized organization, and the whims and fancies of the members and staff
(or non-participation of same) can throw a wrench into even the most careful plan - the fact
that you bring it up means it almost certainly has on a regular basis.
It must be so comforting to live in your world. You're not really responsible for anything, because all the problems cannot be fixed except by NHQ, and since you're not with NHQ, it's not your responsibility.
^ OK, again the facts of what I said and have been saying don't support that, even a little, but since it
helps your narrative to just make things up, so be it.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 01:29:21 PM
In my world, I see a problem and I tend to take responsibility for coming up with a solution for it. If my solution is good, I expect it to spread to others similarly situated facing the same issue. It's how most organizations solve problems. Local level solutions that work are adopted at higher and higher levels.
That's actually quite amusing considering your posts on issues related to IT. We both know this is not the case in CAP.
Local solutions are brute-force efforts, usually end-arounding the
real system, and they work counter to the economies
of scale necessary for an organization as large as CAP to thrive. They are also undone on a whim, throwing out the efforts
of those involved, and many times to the loss of the member.
Sometimes that's necessary for field expedience, but those are rare cases. Usually it's people who have simply "had enough" and instead of pushing the problem and the fix "up", they just throw duct tape on it and press on, which seems like a great idea "today",
until "tomorrow" when everyone has to attack the problem from the same vector like a new box >again<.
That's >why< we have all these fiefdoms that hold the organization back, because we have people all over the place who feel "empowered" towards local fixes, creating a mess of systems, attitudes, and procedures.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 02:18:10 PM
That's actually quite amusing considering your posts on issues related to IT. We both know this is not the case in CAP.
I have consistently and strongly advocated for local solutions to issues. I have said many times that the solution is to let people develop their own systems, and let the marketplace of ideas pick the good solutions and spread them organically.
I have also strongly advocated for NHQ getting out for the [darn]ed way and letting such solutions take shape. We would be light-years further ahead would NHQ get out of the way, instead of trying to impose one-size-fits-all-regulate-everything-people-do solutions.
Your solution to everything is more standardization and more regulation. That squashes any chance of a solution from actually occurring.
No. It stops people from wasting their time reinventing the wheel.
Unfortunately, it's those 52 wheels and innumerable subordinate wheels that make it so difficult for different CAP groups to work together on large scale operations. Standardization from NHQ is important, because when you're wheel gets in the way of my wheel, we aren't getting the mission accomplished.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 03:40:13 PM
No. It stops people from wasting their time reinventing the wheel.
Actually, it prevents the initial invention of the wheel in the first place.
Local innovation means:
A: These squares are kinda bumpy, I'm going to make pentagons
B: Those pentagons worked better...I wonder if a hexagon will be better
C: Screw hexagons! Octagons rule!
D: Dodecagons for the win!
E: Heck, let's just round the whole thing out...
A,B,C,D: Great, we'll do that too.
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 03:40:13 PM
No. It stops people from wasting their time reinventing the wheel.
Actually, it prevents the initial invention of the wheel in the first place.
Local innovation means:
A: These squares are kinda bumpy, I'm going to make pentagons
B: Those pentagons worked better...I wonder if a hexagon will be better
C: Screw hexagons! Octagons rule!
D: Dodecagons for the win!
E: Heck, let's just round the whole thing out...
A,B,C,D: Great, we'll do that too.
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
This episode of the Cavemen Area Patrol was brought to you by Shur-Flame - When the cave gets cold, grab a Shur-Flame!
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Actually, it prevents the initial invention of the wheel in the first place.
Local innovation means:
A: These squares are kinda bumpy, I'm going to make pentagons
B: Those pentagons worked better...I wonder if a hexagon will be better
C: Screw hexagons! Octagons rule!
D: Dodecagons for the win!
E: Heck, let's just round the whole thing out...
A,B,C,D: Great, we'll do that too.
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
I'd suggest a 3rd way. Take the Square that National gives you and use it as the hub of your wheel. Abstract the square so people only see the wheel, but the wheel won't work without the square. That's innovation in CAP.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 03:40:13 PM
No. It stops people from wasting their time reinventing the wheel.
Actually, it prevents the initial invention of the wheel in the first place.
Local innovation means:
A: These squares are kinda bumpy, I'm going to make pentagons
B: Those pentagons worked better...I wonder if a hexagon will be better
C: Screw hexagons! Octagons rule!
D: Dodecagons for the win!
E: Heck, let's just round the whole thing out...
A,B,C,D: Great, we'll do that too.
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
Oh, I forgot:
D: Can we get a waiver to try these round things?
NATIONAL: please contact "S" to request the waiver. Did you know S invented the square and really hates it when people try to improve on his idea?
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 29, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 29, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
There is NOTHING in Illinois between Springfield and Chicago. Lots and lots of nothing.
1. The largest automobile insurance company in the world
2. The world's leading heavy construction company.
3. The tallest college dorm in the world
4. etc.
Just because you don't like miles and miles of food (for humans & animals), fuel, and other usages doesn't mean it is nothing. >:D
Quote from: JeffDG on January 29, 2015, 01:01:15 AM
Every Wing has a unique set of circumstances, and a unique personality.
What is one thing that makes your Wing unique?
I'll start with TNWG.
TNWG directly borders more other wings (AR,MO,KY,VA,NC,GA,AL,MS) and more other Regions (In SER, borders with SWR, NCR, GLR and MER) than any other wing in CAP.
Whereas it may border the most regions, MO borders the same number of states 8 (IA, IL, KY, TN, AR, OK, KS, NE)
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 03:40:13 PM
No. It stops people from wasting their time reinventing the wheel.
Actually, it prevents the initial invention of the wheel in the first place.
Local innovation means:
A: These squares are kinda bumpy, I'm going to make pentagons
B: Those pentagons worked better...I wonder if a hexagon will be better
C: Screw hexagons! Octagons rule!
D: Dodecagons for the win!
E: Heck, let's just round the whole thing out...
A,B,C,D: Great, we'll do that too.
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
Now wait just a minute here: this is the new and improved CAP. I thought we were only allowed to use those new
triangle thingies!!!
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
National Standardization means you use the squares, move on, and worry about something
where there is latitude.
When CAP, as an organization, achieves even a bare margin or proficiency and execution
with the squares, then those who are in staff jobs who are charged with looking at other shapes
can do so, at their discretion, or the direction of command.
And those who aren't SUAC.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 10:36:58 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on January 30, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
National Standardization means:
A: I'm going to try pentagons
NATIONAL: No, squares are the standard
B: What about hexagons?
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard
C: But the squares are very bumpy
NATIONAL: Squares are the standard.
National Standardization means you use the squares, move on, and worry about something
where there is latitude.
When CAP, as an organization, achieves even a bare margin or proficiency and execution
with the squares, then those who are in staff jobs who are charged with looking at other shapes
can do so, at their discretion, or the direction of command.
And those who aren't SUAC.
Thanks for making my point.
Standardization is not a bad thing. Organizations need standardization in order to successfully operate at a larger scale. That's one of the reasons for ICS.
Standardization ≠ micromanagement or over regulation.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 30, 2015, 11:34:06 PM
Standardization ≠ micromanagement or over regulation.
Exactly.
Quote from: Papabird on January 30, 2015, 06:26:16 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 29, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on January 29, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
ILWG is pretty much like IL. South of 80 it might as well be a separate wing.
There is NOTHING in Illinois between Springfield and Chicago. Lots and lots of nothing.
1. The largest automobile insurance company in the world
2. The world's leading heavy construction company.
3. The tallest college dorm in the world
4. etc.
Just because you don't like miles and miles of food (for humans & animals), fuel, and other usages doesn't mean it is nothing. >:D
When I lived in Milwaukee, we looked upon Illinois as a barrier to the rest of the world. :angel:
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 31, 2015, 12:01:03 AM
When I lived in Milwaukee, we looked upon Illinois as a barrier to the rest of the world.
This from an economy based primarily on beer, cheese, and defibrillators...
Illinois views Wisconsin as a beach house and a waterslide.
WIWG isn't the only one with the Dells.. ;)
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2015, 12:08:55 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on January 31, 2015, 12:01:03 AM
When I lived in Milwaukee, we looked upon Illinois as a barrier to the rest of the world.
This from an economy based primarily on beer, cheese, and defibrillators...
Illinois views Wisconsin as a beach house and a waterslide.
'Tis what it is. Cut open a Milwaukee sout' sider and if they don't bleed beer they are imposters.
Quote from: Papabird on January 30, 2015, 06:26:16 PM
2. The world's leading heavy construction company.
And who would that be? VINCI heads my list, and they aren't a US company.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 31, 2015, 03:26:35 AM
Quote from: Papabird on January 30, 2015, 06:26:16 PM
2. The world's leading heavy construction company.
And who would that be? VINCI heads my list, and they aren't a US company.
www.cat.com
"Leading heavy machinery company" would probably be more apt.
OK, I'll accept that.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 30, 2015, 12:02:54 AM
That said, I don't understand the hatred of people and places on the opposite side of 80 from you. I know some of it in jest, but some of it isn't. Get over yourself. I hear lots of people complain about 'Chicagoers' and vice versa - it has no place in CAP or modern society.
Then again, maybe I'm just the only person who can be civil and respectful about these things.
I've got family all over Southern Illinois, where they think Cook county is that area North of I-70 and East of Effingham. Bottom line is that Chicago's politics, voting block and economy control the state and until they don't you're never going to see this change. Much of this goes back to the Great Depression as the Southern end of the state took the Depression hard and didn't show any signs of recovery until the early 80's.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2015, 11:46:17 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 30, 2015, 11:34:06 PM
Standardization ≠ micromanagement or over regulation.
Exactly.
Standardization, and continued innovation = Progress. When NHQ listens to members in the field, positive things have happened. Aircraft management, Financial Accountability, Information distribution, School Programs, WIMRS, and quite a few other practices/standards all started out at the unit, wing, or region level.
I would think all wings have "interesting challenges", however none should be overwhelming or unique. IMHO, all it takes is some mutual cooperation, and leadership with a focused vision on positive growth. BTW; are "affinity groups" still around?
I'm jumping over all of you, moving from Hawaii to Michigan's UP in June. From paradise to... another kind of paradise in one move!
Quote from: FW on February 01, 2015, 01:51:40 PM
Standardization, and continued innovation = Progress. When NHQ listens to members in the field, positive things have happened...WIMRS...
WMIRS is one of the biggest problems.
NHQ did everything they could to kill field-developed systems, then when they failed at that, they did a half-assed attempt to copy them, and released even that half-done with the mandate "Thou shalt not interface to this".
Jeff, believe it or not, WIMRS was developed because it became impossible to incorporate all the various systems in play back then. From what I remember, "they" made a very strong effort to do so. I heard a lot of frustration back then, and quite a few IT guys called it quits. I'm not an IT person, so I can't comment on the whys. From a non IT perspective, I can deal with it quite well. YMMV.
I've heard scuttlebutt that Pete Anderson is behind WIMRS 2.0 ..
If there's any basis to that .. it would be sort of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" kind of thing. He development cycle on IMU was maddening enough, making architectural changes at will, beta testing that must have been like seeing if the flap-jacks stick to the ceiling, or come back down.
Total headache from a support viewpoint, to deal with.
Quote from: AirDX on February 01, 2015, 04:56:11 PM
I'm jumping over all of you, moving from Hawaii to Michigan's UP in June. From paradise to... another kind of paradise in one move!
I can not see that move. But that is me. I am encourging my youngest daughter to go to UH. Aloha ;)