FCU status?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, February 27, 2015, 03:33:40 PM

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Майор Хаткевич

I was in eServices, curious why I'm not getting ANY requests to approve for Cadet Uniforms from our newest cadets.


Noticed the report, and saw that it's...quite lacking. It showed me 1 cadet from March of last year as "completed" request, and showed me 5 cadets (one from 2013!!!), 4 from December who are in "sent to AAFES" status.


So question is...
How does one find out when uniforms are/are not available?
How does one follow up on pending requests if they are available?
Why don't people do the requests, especially since the link to the section is part of our "Welcome" email to new cadet members?

Laplace

I don't have a answer to your questions, but on a related note, it was just mentioned at the Winter Command Council meeting about the adoption in the very near future of the Curry Blues Voucher Program.  This program will replace the FCU and give a $100.00 voucher to cadets to use at Vanguard.   

No other details given on it. 

Eclipse

Ned,

If you're around and free to speak about it, it might be a good idea to put the high-level details of this plan
out there before the the conjecture starts.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 04:03:40 PM
Ned,

If you're around and free to speak about it, it might be a good idea to put the high-level details of this plan
out there before the the conjecture starts.


Agreed. I can see how it could be "bad" and "good" in different ways from what we have today.


I would even love to have this managed by the unit, so that mistakes could be avoided. Heh.


But in either case, I've got a lot of new cadets (yay!), who need uniforms (boo!), and I'm not sure if I should send them out to source on their own.

NC Hokie

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 04:16:15 PM
[But in either case, I've got a lot of new cadets (yay!), who need uniforms (boo!), and I'm not sure if I should send them out to source on their own.

I just received a FCU uniform that I ordered for a cadet in October, so you might want to have them source them on their own.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: NC Hokie on February 27, 2015, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 04:16:15 PM
[But in either case, I've got a lot of new cadets (yay!), who need uniforms (boo!), and I'm not sure if I should send them out to source on their own.

I just received a FCU uniform that I ordered for a cadet in October, so you might want to have them source them on their own.


Hence the voucher system may actually be of benefit.


But more details WOULD be nice. Are cadet dues going to go up? Is VG giving us any break on the pricing?


And my big question - why hasn't someone done a "package" item, called "new cadet startup kit", that includes everything they need (name tapes, name plate, flight cover device, etc etc), so you choose that item, type in your name as you would for the name plate/tapes, and click "buy" on that ONE item to make sure all cadets get the same start up kit, and there's no need to run around the website finding items in various categories, etc.


Would be easier on VG as well, as they could pre-package these sets, with the exception of nametapes/plates.

Eclipse

Hence why I suggested Ned comment.  My "good idea" light went full bright when I saw that - I can think of about
5 reasons this is "less better" then what is being done today, starting with the fact that it's purported to be
based on a dollar figure and not specific items.  Then there is the issue of shipping, etc.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

So here's the problem and the proposed solution.

CAP obviously has the responsibility to be good guardians of our funds, and that is particularly true of the appropriated dollars entrusted to us by Congress and routed through our CAP-USAF colleagues.

The Issue:  For some time our AF colleagues have been concerned that providing free uniforms to new cadets may not be the most efficient use of tax dollars when the first year retention rate for cadets hovers around 40%.  Some might argue that by definition, 60% of the taxpayer-provided FCU money was sitting idle in the closets of thousands of former cadets.

(Some units are proactive about contacting former members and attempting to get uniforms returned to the squadron for re-issue, but overall "reclamation rates" for used uniforms would always be problematic.)

Complicating the issue is the lengthy fulfillment time in getting the uniforms into the hands of our cadets from the USAF vendor.  Some periods were better than others, but it was not uncommon for delivery to take months instead of the days or weeks we would like.



CP developed two options to address the issue.  The first option was to simply delay the free uniform until the cadet had received the Curry.  This would have measurably increased the "effectiveness" of the program because Curry cadets renew at a significantly higher rate than non-Curry cadets (not very surprising when you consider what it means if a cadet arrives at the one-year anniversary without earning the Curry - it means they have ceased participating already.) 

Part of option one would be accepting that cadets would complete Achievement 1 training while dressed in civvies.  (Or whatever locally-designated uniforms units may create - khakis, jeans, squadron t-shirts, etc.).  The downside would be learning to drill in civilian shoes, the loss of the uniform as an important training and morale tool, etc.  It was hard for me to imagine pinning the all-important first stripe onto a non-uniform shirt.

Option two is similar, but with an important twist.  We would again delay the "free uniform*" (more on that in a bit) until Achievement 2, but would require cadets to purchase and wear the BDU uniform during Achievement 1.  This would increase the effective use of the appropriated funds by providing uniforms to cadets who will renew at much higher rates since they are invested by earning the Curry and also have invested in their BDUs.  Another plus is that it raises the prestige of the blues because they have to be "earned." 

The other aspect of option two is to drastically improve service and fulfillment times by switching from the AF vendor to providing a voucher that can be used at VG.  That has its own plusses and minuses, of course.  The upside is uniform items arriving in days instead of months; the downside is that individual uniform items will be more expensive since VG cannot sell the "issue" DPSC items.  They are restricted to the higher-quality (and more expensive) commercial MILSPEC items.

So there you have it.  We have extensively staffed the options, and the recommendation for option 2 went forward to the senior leadership, who have every right to accept, reject, or request further options.

As far as I know, no final decisions have been made.

Whatever guidance the senior leadership provides will almost certainly require changes to supporting regulations like the 52-16 and the 39-1.  I'm confident that any proposed changes will follow the normal procedures, which typically provide time for member input to any proposed changes.

Dues increases have not been discussed, recommended, or considered as part of this process.

Eclipse

I don't suppose this included any suggestions that NHQ dial-back the C&Ds to vendors who
can provide uniform parts and generics like nametapes and tags to help offset the increased
cost to the cadets?

Of removing the "HMRS" tax, etc. from these items, specifically?

How about fixing the AAFES relationship, which would address both the cost and the access?

There's clearly an issue that needs to be addressed, but turning this into a new revenue stream for
VG at the unnecessary expense of the cadets would seem like the easiest, but less compelling solution.

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 05:34:01 PM
Dues increases have not been discussed, recommended, or considered as part of this process.
Increases?

Or how about just washing first-year membership costs for cadets and letting them get their own uniforms?

A increase in dues just to offset the increase in uniform costs because NHQ can't fix the source problem
puts the onus on the cadets.  Fix the source problem.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Bob, I know you are unhappy with everything NHQ does, but at least try to think some of these things through.


Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 05:47:51 PM
I don't suppose this included any suggestions that NHQ dial-back the C&Ds to vendors who
can provide uniform parts and generics like nametapes and tags to help offset the increased
cost to the cadets?

CAP has not, can not, and will not send C & D letters to vendors who supply "uniform parts and generics."  We want members to have access to uniform items at reasonable prices.  But more importantly, we neither have the authority nor the desire to do so.

QuoteHow about fixing the AAFES relationship, which would address both the cost and the access?

The folks at AAFES are good, hard-working people who continue to provide CAP members with the items permitted by law and AFI.  When mechanical issues arise (like credit cards acceptance on phone orders) we address the issues and work towards a solution.  There are simply no "relationship issues."

QuoteThere's clearly an issue that needs to be addressed, but turning this into a new revenue stream for
VG at the unnecessary expense of the cadets would seem like the easiest, but less compelling solution.

Well there you've got me.  Clearly, if I give a cadet a voucher for x dollars to spend at VG, I have somehow caused the cadet "unnecessary expense."

(Seriously?)

Quote
Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 05:34:01 PM
Dues increases have not been discussed, recommended, or considered as part of this process.
Increases?

Or how about just washing first-year membership costs for cadets and letting them get their own uniforms?

A increase in dues just to offset the increase in uniform costs because NHQ can't fix the source problem
puts the onus on the cadets.  Fix the source problem.

I was responding to another poster who specifically asked if dues would increase because of FCU issues.  The answer is simply "no."

One way to avoid building strawmen to beat down is simply to read the thread carefully before responding.

Майор Хаткевич

But we DO have an unnecessary expense. AAFES cost, based on a report was just shy of $67 dollars. If we're going to give cadets $100 to work with VG prices...that doesn't seem to work out. 

Ned

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 06:09:07 PM
But we DO have an unnecessary expense. AAFES cost, based on a report was just shy of $67 dollars. If we're going to give cadets $100 to work with VG prices...that doesn't seem to work out.

What do you mean?  If the AAFES cost is indeed $67, are you suggesting that we should restrict the VG voucher to the cadet to $67?  Why would we do that?

The whole point of the program is to get uniforms into the hands of cadets in a way that is a responsible use of appropriated funds.  If we saving money by not purchasing uniforms for cadets less likely to renew, why should be not distribute the "saved funds" to the cadets who ARE more likely to renew?

We get X dollars a year to implement the FCU program.  We can't roll it over from year to year.  And if it is not spent on the purpose for which it was appropriated, it has to be returned to Uncle Sam.  Restated, there will be no increased costs over the current program since we will be spending exactly X dollars every FY as Congress and our AF colleagues want us to do.

Майор Хаткевич

#12
I just went on VG and priced out the following items:
Belt - $16.90
Male Trousers - $59.40 //// Female Slacks OR Skirt- $54.00
Short Sleeve Dress Shirt/Blouse - $47.50
Flight Cap -$19.49

So the cost at VG right now, to get the items AAFES sent is actually $143.29 for male cadets and $137.89 for females.

The cost of an AAFES filled order? $63.75

So essentially, CAP is going to spend 56% more, without solving the issue with "waste" due to retention whatsoever.
Cadets will have to spend between $37.89 and $43.29 MORE than they currently do.

Overall costs will go up more 116-124%

So why not a compromise? Raise cadet dues by the cost of the provided items. (I suppose if we stick with the AAFES one, it's cheaper). IF a cadet sticks around past year 2 of membership, credit their "uniform insurance" fee back (since we're trying to say they should get at least 1+ years out of it). If a cadet quits and returns everything in usable shape (maybe we need a module in eservices to track this?), then they get a refund despite not renewing.

Eclipse

The problem with the math is that some of the VG "cost" is actually profit.

So while it might look like zero-sum to the GAO, it comes at the expense of the cadet and to
the advantage of a private business.

Personally, I have always thought it would be a good idea to restrict the FCU to Curry, I just don't know
how yo make that work in the existing paradigm, and since there's no actual requirement or time limit
on Curry, you could have cadets in "khakis" (which in the real-world of conflict-averse Unit CCs will equal "whatever")
for months if not years.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 06:30:32 PM
The problem with the math is that some of the VG "cost" is actually profit.

True enough. 

But I think the GAO understands that pretty much every vendor providing goods and services to Uncle Sam has some "profit" in the numbers.  Cuz otherwise there would be no vendors providing goods and services to Uncle Sam.

And if CAP can find another vendor that can provide MILSPEC AF service uniforms in cadet sizes at a better price with comparable service, I can't imagine why we wouldn't use them.


QuotePersonally, I have always thought it would be a good idea to restrict the FCU to Curry, I just don't know
how yo make that work in the existing paradigm, and since there's no actual requirement or time limit
on Curry, you could have cadets in "khakis" (which in the real-world of conflict-averse Unit CCs will equal "whatever")
for months if not years.

I think we agree that cadets should be in uniform as early as possible.  Uniform wear is the first listed "Key Traits of Cadet Life" in para 1-3 of the 52-16.  I literally cannot imagine our cadet program without AF uniforms.

But assuming our leaders have adopted option 2, new cadets will be working on Achievement 1 in BDUs rather than khakis.  Look for a formal announcement of the new program to come out next week.  We'll all know the details then.

And Capt Hatkevich, your comparison of AAFES and VG prices is not really an "apples to apples" comparison for reasons I described above.  AAFES sells the "issue" DPSC items (which I think are the prices you quoted), while VG sells the higher quality MILSPEC commercial items.  (Which AAFES also sells for significantly higher prices than the DPSC items.)

But I can only agree that VG will never be as cheap as AAFES, simply because it cannot be.

The other factor we considered is the lengthy (some would say unacceptable) lag time in fulfillment from AAFES, which was measured in months.  VG service is almost "Amazon-like" in delivery times.  Indeed, our analysis suggested that part of the problem with retention rates may have been directly tied to the 10 week FCU delivery times.  Cadets really appreciate the uniform and all that it represents.

But I must confess I still don't understand how raising cadet dues to cover aspects of the FCU would help the situation.  Could you explain?

Майор Хаткевич

#15
Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
And Capt Hatkevich, your comparison of AAFES and VG prices is not really an "apples to apples" comparison for reasons I described above.


It doesn't have to be "apples to apples" on quality. Parents will see it as $$ to $$$, and that's all that matters. Whether the items are better quality or not, fact remains, last week a cadet *in theory* paid his dues, and could get a uniform.


When the new program starts, the cadet will pay his dues, get a voucher, and then have to pay additional money to get those same items, quality differences notwithstanding.

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
  AAFES sells the "issue" DPSC items (which I think are the prices you quoted), while VG sells the higher quality MILSPEC commercial items.  (Which AAFES also sells for significantly higher prices than the DPSC items.)


Again, that doesn't matter to parents, or cadets who will most likely outgrow the garments. But the real cost is what the $100 won't cover.

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
But I can only agree that VG will never be as cheap as AAFES, simply because it cannot be.


They could...give a startup package discount, and get everything a cadet needs in one order. Would save them on picking and packing, and they are guaranteed a larger "sale" right out of the gate.

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PMThe other factor we considered is the lengthy (some would say unacceptable) lag time in fulfillment from AAFES, which was measured in months.


Agreed, a massive downside.


Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
VG service is almost "Amazon-like" in delivery times.  Indeed, our analysis suggested that part of the problem with retention rates may have been directly tied to the 10 week FCU delivery times.  Cadets really appreciate the uniform and all that it represents.


Perhaps, but I think a lot of it is also "Not for me", which typically comes out 3 months into membership.

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PMBut I must confess I still don't understand how raising cadet dues to cover aspects of the FCU would help the situation.  Could you explain?


We're worried about "waste" due to cadets only sticking around for a year. So raise the cost by the cost of the uniform, to be refunded after 2 years/upon return of uniforms. [/size][/font]

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
And if CAP can find another vendor that can provide MILSPEC AF service uniforms in cadet sizes at a better price with comparable service, I can't imagine why we wouldn't use them.

Where do ROTC and JROTC, not to mention Academy cadets getting theirs?

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 06:56:41 PM
Look for a formal announcement of the new program to come out next week. 
Which will hopefully include either a requisite update to 39-1 or at at least an ICL, as Commanders
are currently barred from mandating any uniform for cadets which is not issued.  For cash-strapped moms
looking for a loop-hole, this will be an issue.

The sad fact is that the ground-level impact of this is minimal, because while CAP has promised a free uniform
forever, the number of cadets who actually get one, for various reasons ranging from funding, program administration issues
(at all levels), or simply the lack of requesting one, is decidedly less then 100%.

Couple that with how fast kids grow, and it isn't unusual for cadets to finally get an FCU well past their being able to wear it,
at which point it either goes into the unit storeroom or back to CAP with a new size request and more waiting.

Perhaps a national program by which units were mandated to report all serviceable uniforms on hand, which could then
be requested by other members.  There is a lot of cloth sitting in backrooms, never to be worn.

A decent IT guy, or the average 12 year old, could cobble a request system together in a few hours, let the recipient pay flat rate
shipping, done.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 07:12:25 PM
It doesn't have to be "apples to apples" on quality. Parents will see it as $$ to $$$, and that's all that matters. Whether the items are better quality or not, fact remains, last week a cadet *in theory* paid his dues, and could get a uniform.

Agreed - it's just a blue shirt to them, and most cadets can't wear them more then a year before they out grow them.

It's a different story for adults.

Perhaps it's time to make some phone calls and let VG sell the issue gear, allowing them to leverage their ecommerce
back end for distribution.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 07:15:14 PM

Where do ROTC and JROTC, not to mention Academy cadets getting theirs?

Good question.  Since JROTC and ROTC are actual AF entities, they simply use the existing AF supply system just like any other AF unit.  They requisition things which sit in the supply room until they are issued out to their cadets.  And as attractive as that sounds, it simply isn't an option for us.

QuoteThe sad fact is that the ground-level impact of this is minimal, because while CAP has promised a free uniform
forever, the number of cadets who actually get one, for various reasons ranging from funding, program administration issues
(at all levels), or simply the lack of requesting one, is decidedly less then 100%.

Absolutely true.  Which is a good reason to upgrade the program.  While we have always been grateful to Congress and our AF colleagues for the FCU, there are issues associated with the existing program.  But you are absolutely correct that the FCU "Rate" is well under 100%.  (I'm at work and don't have the number handy.)  Some units simply don't participate as a matter of local policy.  Some units have existing supplies of uniforms, and can get uniforms into the hands of cadets far more quickly than relying on the old FCU.

QuotePerhaps a national program by which units were mandated to report all serviceable uniforms on hand, which could then
be requested by other members.  There is a lot of cloth sitting in backrooms, never to be worn.

A decent IT guy, or the average 12 year old, could cobble a request system together in a few hours, let the recipient pay flat rate
shipping, done.

Not a bad idea, but we'd have to scrub the numbers pretty carefully.  I could see shipping (even at "flat rate") fairly quickly eating up the cost of a "free" used shirt, for instance.  But I could see it working for larger quantities.

Some other good news:  I understand that using the voucher will take the cadet / Mom / Dad directly to a special page at VG that will offer discounted uniform "packages" designed to make most efficient use of the voucher.  But again, this is a bit premature since the official announcement and program description will be released next week.



Майор Хаткевич

That is some good news.

Any chance of the NHQ CP team also writing up the "bare bones" required accessories list for uniforms (name tapes/plates/cover devices, etc), and asking VG to make a "add to cart" ready package as well?