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How to refer to CAP NCO

Started by cadetesman, May 23, 2012, 10:19:14 PM

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cadetesman

Just wondering, how exactly do I refer to a CAP Senior Member NCO?

I believe it is as Sgt, but I'm not entirely sure.

This is the first time I have ever had to contact a CAP NCO, as there are so few of them.

Thank you


manfredvonrichthofen

For the first few times you speak to him, refer to him as his correct grade, Staff Sergeant, tech Sergeant... So on, I he tells you to just drop it to Sergeant, then go for it, but of he doesn't correct you, then keep going with the full correct grade.

Eclipse

What's his grade?  Chiefs, etc., tend to like that included in salutations, the same way that offices like "sir".

"That Others May Zoom"

MSgt Van

Sargeant Lastname is appropriate except for a Chief. I don't personally care for "sarge". If they demand the full title then so be it, but they shouldn't be a jerk about it.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

CAPP 151 covers the basics.

"Air Force and senior member non-commissioned officers and airmen are addressed by grade and last name (ie: Sergeant Levitow)."

While this does not cover the Technical Sergeant vs Sergeant the chart that follows does. There is an earlier reference that states it is always correct for a senior member to address a cadet as Cadet








ABBREV.GRADETERMS OF ADDRESS
C/SSgtCadet Staff SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/TSgtCadet Technical SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/MSgtCadet Master SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/SMSgtCadet Senior Master SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/CMSgtCadet Chief Master SergeantChief Cadet

The table continues to show we address First and Second Lieutenants as Lieutenant, etc.

With this information I think we can conclude the proper way to address a CAP NCO is Sergeant or Chief Last Name.

 

lordmonar

Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 12:58:55 AM
Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

PHall

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 24, 2012, 02:39:41 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 12:58:55 AM
Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?

You do know that the guy who gave you that answer is a recently retired Air Force Master Sergeant, right?
So he might know what he's talking about here.






Or not... >:D

Dad2-4

WWhen I went through USAF Basic Training in the mid-80s we were taught that NCO's can be addressed as sir and m'am.
When I was in the Army in the 1990 I was constantly being told not to do that.
I don't know what the USAF current policy is on it though. Even as a SM officer, I still use sir and m'am when speaking with SM NCOs and all AD personnel just out of respect for the person, and no one has ever complained except a couple of overly gung-ho Army Reservists.

abdsp51

AF policy is a NCO may be addressed as Sergeant, staff, tech sergeant etc or sir or ma'am. 

BuckeyeDEJ

"Sergeant cadet" is how we'd verbally refer to a cadet technical sergeant? What clueless civilian at HQ CAP wrote that?

To other cadets, he'd be "sergeant" or "cadet" and to senior members, he's "cadet."

As for seniors who wear stripes, they're sergeants or chiefs. Cadets would address them as "sergeant" or "chief," and would not need to salute them. And "sirs" and "ma'ams" are officers.

Go look at the book when all else fails. 'Nuff said.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

lordmonar

#11
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 24, 2012, 02:39:41 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 12:58:55 AM
Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?
Dude....look at my signature.....I retired as a MSgt in 08......I called NCO's sir or ma'am from day one at BMTS.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on May 24, 2012, 06:03:19 AM
"Sergeant cadet" is how we'd verbally refer to a cadet technical sergeant? What clueless civilian at HQ CAP wrote that?

To other cadets, he'd be "sergeant" or "cadet" and to senior members, he's "cadet."

As for seniors who wear stripes, they're sergeants or chiefs. Cadets would address them as "sergeant" or "chief," and would not need to salute them. And "sirs" and "ma'ams" are officers.

Go look at the book when all else fails. 'Nuff said.

The chart looks better in the CAPP 151. It has two columns under TERMS OF ADDRESS, one for SMs, and one for Cadets. It doesn't really say "Sergeant cadet" anywhere.

Basic rules:
Cadets address cadet officers and senior members by grade or as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title, "Cadet."
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

bflynn

Quote from: Dad2-4 on May 24, 2012, 04:47:29 AM
WWhen I went through USAF Basic Training in the mid-80s we were taught that NCO's can be addressed as sir and m'am.
When I was in the Army in the 1990 I was constantly being told not to do that.
I don't know what the USAF current policy is on it though. Even as a SM officer, I still use sir and m'am when speaking with SM NCOs and all AD personnel just out of respect for the person, and no one has ever complained except a couple of overly gung-ho Army Reservists.

Interesting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on May 24, 2012, 04:47:29 AM
WWhen I went through USAF Basic Training in the mid-80s we were taught that NCO's can be addressed as sir and m'am.
When I was in the Army in the 1990 I was constantly being told not to do that.
I don't know what the USAF current policy is on it though. Even as a SM officer, I still use sir and m'am when speaking with SM NCOs and all AD personnel just out of respect for the person, and no one has ever complained except a couple of overly gung-ho Army Reservists.

Interesting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...
I hate that joke.

1) It is disrepectful towards officers.
2) It is disrepectful toward the person who offered a term of repect....and is rejected so rudely.....if you want to be called something else....just say...."Call me Sergeant Major" and press on.  No one should get a butt chewing for being respectful....even if they did it "wrong".

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 12:31:04 PMInteresting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...

Wives tales and too many movies.

Never happens.

"That Others May Zoom"

Major Carrales

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 01:04:29 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on May 24, 2012, 04:47:29 AM
WWhen I went through USAF Basic Training in the mid-80s we were taught that NCO's can be addressed as sir and m'am.
When I was in the Army in the 1990 I was constantly being told not to do that.
I don't know what the USAF current policy is on it though. Even as a SM officer, I still use sir and m'am when speaking with SM NCOs and all AD personnel just out of respect for the person, and no one has ever complained except a couple of overly gung-ho Army Reservists.

Interesting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...
I hate that joke.

1) It is disrepectful towards officers.
2) It is disrepectful toward the person who offered a term of repect....and is rejected so rudely.....if you want to be called something else....just say...."Call me Sergeant Major" and press on.  No one should get a butt chewing for being respectful....even if they did it "wrong".

I have always believe what you just said here.  While I know there exists a clear distinction between Officers, NCOs and the Enlisted Airman that must always be maintained...there should be no animosity between these groups.  I have seen and read both sides of this...  NCOs that treat and precieve officers as if they were "Col Hall" from the Phil Silver's show, basically baffoons.  I've witnessed the opposite also, Officers that treat enlisted like they were unworthy trogs.

This cannot possibly be healthy, despite it's obvious satire/comical origin, in CAP. 

If we are talking about Cadet NCOs taking this position with Cadet Officers, that is just ridiculous and childish "posing" since all CAP Cadet Officers were C/CMSgts prior to becoming cadet officers.  Thus, in terms of the cadet program a C/2d Lt has "been there and done that" and taking that position is just something "someone saw on television."

I have also seen the cadet/senior member dynamic.  Most times, Cadet Programs people are highly respected by the cadets and those "polo shirt" wearing ones are subject to the "rift."  Why?  Because they don't participate in customs and courtesies, return salutes, wear the same uniform and a plethora of other issues.  It usually begins with a visiting O-pilot who leaves cadets "haning" on a salute or says "just call me, Joe."

The cadets who are emotionally invested in the structure find this ridiculous and thus is invented the terms "Donut Eatin' Senior Member."

Why?  I can understand this is so because...from the cadet's point of view there is a clear difference between Capt. C. P. Capman, who displays military trappings and "Joe" the Lt Col who gives O-Rides.

The NCO program in CAP is not really such, it is an hommage to prior service.  If we take it as that, as I do, I have no problems with it.  However, there are some that seek it to be more (and have sought such as evident in a prior administration) who, for the same reason, see either great VALUE in it or NO Value in it.  There are even those that would say that the idea of a former NCO not wanting to wear officer's rank is sort of insulting...citing the same "don't call me sir, I work for a living" base argument.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 01:04:29 PM
I hate that joke.

1) It is disrepectful towards officers.
2) It is disrepectful toward the person who offered a term of repect....and is rejected so rudely.....if you want to be called something else....just say...."Call me Sergeant Major" and press on.  No one should get a butt chewing for being respectful....even if they did it "wrong".

You can hate it, but as a raw recruit right out of boot, I had it said to me by a chief as a spot correction.  And I've used it with other recruits as a spot correction meant and taken completely seriously.  In the Navy at least it is (was) not used as a joke.

The real military is a rougher culture.  It has been toned down some, but when you consider their ultimate mission is to kill other people, roughness, inflexibility and a certain level of contempt for inexperienced people is to be expected. 

arajca

Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2012, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 12:31:04 PMInteresting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...

Wives tales and too many movies.

Never happens.
Bull pucky. It happens. BTDT.

Eclipse

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 02:51:04 PMYou can hate it, but as a raw recruit right out of boot, I had it said to me by a chief as a spot correction.  And I've used it with other recruits as a spot correction meant and taken completely seriously.  In the Navy at least it is (was) not used as a joke.

It's not used any more where the Navy trains its recruits.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 02:51:04 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 01:04:29 PM
I hate that joke.

1) It is disrepectful towards officers.
2) It is disrepectful toward the person who offered a term of repect....and is rejected so rudely.....if you want to be called something else....just say...."Call me Sergeant Major" and press on.  No one should get a butt chewing for being respectful....even if they did it "wrong".

You can hate it, but as a raw recruit right out of boot, I had it said to me by a chief as a spot correction.  And I've used it with other recruits as a spot correction meant and taken completely seriously.  In the Navy at least it is (was) not used as a joke.

The real military is a rougher culture.  It has been toned down some, but when you consider their ultimate mission is to kill other people, roughness, inflexibility and a certain level of contempt for inexperienced people is to be expected.
Totally disagree.....and I will continue to correct my subordinates and challenge my supeirors and peers NOT to use that joke.

It teach disrepect.  End of argument.

If you want to use a "spot correction"......"Call me Sergeant/Chief/Sergeant Major" is all that is needed.  When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?

The CyBorg is destroyed

The "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is not just an old wives' tale.  I have never met an NCO of any stripe (ouch), outside of USAF/USMC/USCG(?) basic training who wanted to be addressed as "sir/ma'am."

The way I always learned it:

Commissioned officers: Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Lieutenant") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Warrant officers (which, of course, the USAF doesn't have and they look like lieutenants until you're close enough to see the little squares on their bars): Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Warrant Officer/Chief Warrant Officer" and/or "Mr/Ms/Miss Jones") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Senior NCO's, depending on service:

USAF
"Chief Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Chief" thereafter (if the CMSgt is good with it).
"Senior Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
"Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
The same goes for the lower NCO grades (Technical Sergeant, Staff Sergeant).
"Senior Airman"...I have tended to use the full title; I'm personally not comfortable with just calling a SrA "airman."
A1C and below: "Airman."

USA:
Command Sergeant Major - full title
First Sergeant - full title
Sergeant Major - full title
Master Sergeant and below - full title first time, "Sergeant" thereafter.
Corporal and below - full title

USMC:
Much the same as for the Army.
Gunnery Sergeant - full title, unless the GySgt allows you to call him/her "Gunny."
Lance Corporal - full title

USN/USCG:
Here my knowledge fails, because I don't know the myriad of ratings in the Navy and Coast Guard.
So I just do the following:
Master Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Master Chief"
Senior Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Senior Chief"
Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Chief"
Petty Officers - "Petty Officer"
Seamen - "Seaman," "Constructionman," "Fireman," "Hospitalman," "Airman"...though I've found that most are good with "Seaman."
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

a2capt

I bet it did, too. Many times I've simply gone into a situation and laid it on the table, and shot right through that kind of attitude and the results are pretty much "improved", because both sides see they're serious and here to get the job done.

lordmonar

Quote from: a2capt on May 24, 2012, 05:58:47 PM
I bet it did, too. Many times I've simply gone into a situation and laid it on the table, and shot right through that kind of attitude and the results are pretty much "improved", because both sides see they're serious and here to get the job done.
Exactly.....I simpely explained that I was in the USAF and I meant no disrepect for calling her ma'am.  I then respectfuly explained my position that the "joke" was in poor taste, counter to good order and discipline and pressed on.

No different then correctining a superior on a uniform issue or any other thing that were doing "wrong".
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 05:36:12 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.

Surprising...what did you say that turned it from the chief yelling at you into an improved relationship?  Or was she not really serious about it in the first place?

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 05:36:12 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.

Surprising...what did you say that turned it from the chief yelling at you into an improved relationship?  Or was she not really serious about it in the first place?
I'm sorry Chief....in the the USAF ma'am is a term of respect.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 06:15:53 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 05:36:12 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.

Surprising...what did you say that turned it from the chief yelling at you into an improved relationship?  Or was she not really serious about it in the first place?
I'm sorry Chief....in the the USAF ma'am is a term of respect.

Ok, I can see that that difuses it if the chief was half joking to start with.  It doesn't match the chiefs I've dealt with, but every person and situation is different.

RogueLeader

I always addressed an army e-9 as sergeant major.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

lordmonar

Quote from: RogueLeader on May 24, 2012, 06:22:18 PM
I always addressed an army e-9 as sergeant major.
And the Master Chief is always the Master Chief....and the USAF Chief is always Chief.

But those guys should not be jumping down your throat for saying Sir or Ma'am......not the first time you say it anyway.
And I am not talking about what your DI/MTI did to you at basic......they don't have time to deal with you like a living thinking human being.

It is not so much that they want to be called chief/sergeant/senior (which is the new thing sneaking into the USAF for E-8s).....by all mean if you want me to call you Grand Pooh Bah The Almighty.......I will follow your wishes....but attacking people for being respectful (even if it was 100% right....like calling a judge sir instead of "your honor") is counter productive.

And using the "I work for a living" line....simply reinforces the contempt for the officer corps...which again is against good order and discipline.

That's all I am saying.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 05:18:00 PMI've found that most are good with "Seaman."
Hey, now. DADT is in a different thread somewhere.... >:D

All this quibbling can be taken care of by avoiding the confusion of CAP urban legend and conflicting directives and going straight to AFI 34-1201, Protocol. From there, you'll find additional readings on the matter. Officers always get salutes. Enlisted personnel and cadets do not salute each other except under certain circumstances. And while you're reading that instruction, look at how many other helpful things you'll find that we just don't learn to use in CAP except from urban legend. There it all is, in black and white.

A sergeant is a sergeant is a sergeant. A chief is a chief, albeit still a sergeant. A cadet is a cadet. "Sir" and "ma'am" are terms you can use when you're at a loss for something else. How we wind up in long discussions about silly stuff like this, I don't know, but it shows there's an elemental problem with our training when we don't know how to react properly to noncomms.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

lordmonar

Well.....you are right.

How we get here is.....that the USAF does not read AFI 34-1201 nor a lot of the other regulations/instructions that "tell you how it is".

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

FlyTiger77

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 05:18:00 PM
The way I always learned it:

Commissioned officers: Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Lieutenant") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Warrant officers (which, of course, the USAF doesn't have and they look like lieutenants until you're close enough to see the little squares on their bars): Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Warrant Officer/Chief Warrant Officer" and/or "Mr/Ms/Miss Jones") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Senior NCO's, depending on service:

...

USA:
Command Sergeant Major - full title
Sergeant Major - full title {I rearranged the order for you}
First Sergeant - full title
Master Sergeant and below - full title first time, "Sergeant" thereafter.
Corporal and below - full title

...


My experience and practice differ. Also, a lot depends on who is senior to whom when the addressing occurs.

AR 600-20 dictates how Soldiers are to be addressed:

--More senior officers (to include warrant officers if you are junior to them) are addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am" as appropriate. I have never used his or her rank as a noun of address on first contact.
        (Among officers, it is most common for more senior officers to address more junior officers by their first name.)

When spoken to:
--Command Sergeants Major and Sergeants Major are addressed as "Sergeant Major"
--First Sergeants are addressed as such
--Sergeants through Master Sergeant are addressed as "Sergeant" (by regulation, although Master Sergeants more often than not insist on being called "Master Sergeant")
--Corporals are addressed as such
--Specialist and below are addressed by their last name more often than not

When speaking about a Soldier, full rank and last name are used, except for warrant officers where Mr./Mrs./Ms. is used in lieu of rank.

Example:

"Hey, Jones, the Sergeant First Class Smith wants to see you."

"Good afternoon, sergeant."
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

sardak

Quotebut attacking people for being respectful (even if it was 100% right....like calling a judge sir instead of "your honor") is counter productive.
Thanks for the opening.

Kaffee: I'm not through with my examination. Sit down.
Col. Jessep: Colonel!
Kaffee: What's that?
Col. Jessep: I would appreciate it if he would address me as "Colonel" or "Sir." I believe I've earned it.
Judge Randolph: Defense counsel will address the witness as "Colonel" or "Sir."
Col. Jessep: [to Judge] I don't know what the hell kind of unit you're running here.
Judge Randolph: And the witness will address this court as "Judge" or "Your Honor." I'm quite certain I've earned it. Take your seat, Colonel.

Mike

SARDOC

In the Army frequently the First Sergeant is also called "Top"

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2012, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 12:31:04 PMInteresting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...

Wives tales and too many movies.

Never happens.

Wrong answer. Maybe not these days, but it was very prevalent WIWOAD. USN, USMC, and USA.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

manfredvonrichthofen

You still hear it a lot.

In the 506, I had a really cool Sergeant Major, and he told us it takes too long to say Sergeant Major, unless a high officer was around from a different unit or from division were there, just call me smaj. Good guy.

But if your hazy on the title, and they are an NCO, throw out the full title, if they tell you otherwise, then go with it. It is much easier on you and the NCO.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: phirons on May 24, 2012, 12:48:00 AM
CAPP 151 covers the basics.

"Air Force and senior member non-commissioned officers and airmen are addressed by grade and last name (ie: Sergeant Levitow)."

While this does not cover the Technical Sergeant vs Sergeant the chart that follows does. There is an earlier reference that states it is always correct for a senior member to address a cadet as Cadet








ABBREV.GRADETERMS OF ADDRESS
C/SSgtCadet Staff SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/TSgtCadet Technical SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/MSgtCadet Master SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/SMSgtCadet Senior Master SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/CMSgtCadet Chief Master SergeantChief Cadet

The table continues to show we address First and Second Lieutenants as Lieutenant, etc.

With this information I think we can conclude the proper way to address a CAP NCO is Sergeant or Chief Last Name.

The OP was about how we address CAP NCOs. With some interpretation, CAPP 151 addresses this.  Where CAP publications address an issue we should follow them.

That said, I would make every attempt to address an active / reserve / guard NCO by the customs / regulations of their service. Now if I could ever get my head around the Navy enlisted structure....

Eclipse

Quote from: phirons on May 25, 2012, 01:13:46 PM
That said, I would make every attempt to address an active / reserve / guard NCO by the customs / regulations of their service. Now if I could ever get my head around the Navy enlisted structure...

Most are Petty Officers and Chiefs, though internally they like to refer to each other by their MOS.

How do you tell the difference between a Chief and a Senior Chief?

They will tell you...

"That Others May Zoom"

stillamarine

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 05:18:00 PM
The "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is not just an old wives' tale.  I have never met an NCO of any stripe (ouch), outside of USAF/USMC/USCG(?) basic training who wanted to be addressed as "sir/ma'am."

The way I always learned it:

Commissioned officers: Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Lieutenant") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Warrant officers (which, of course, the USAF doesn't have and they look like lieutenants until you're close enough to see the little squares on their bars): Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Warrant Officer/Chief Warrant Officer" and/or "Mr/Ms/Miss Jones") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Senior NCO's, depending on service:

USAF
"Chief Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Chief" thereafter (if the CMSgt is good with it).
"Senior Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
"Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
The same goes for the lower NCO grades (Technical Sergeant, Staff Sergeant).
"Senior Airman"...I have tended to use the full title; I'm personally not comfortable with just calling a SrA "airman."
A1C and below: "Airman."

USA:
Command Sergeant Major - full title
First Sergeant - full title
Sergeant Major - full title
Master Sergeant and below - full title first time, "Sergeant" thereafter.
Corporal and below - full title

USMC:
Much the same as for the Army.
Gunnery Sergeant - full title, unless the GySgt allows you to call him/her "Gunny."
Lance Corporal - full title

USN/USCG:
Here my knowledge fails, because I don't know the myriad of ratings in the Navy and Coast Guard.
So I just do the following:
Master Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Master Chief"
Senior Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Senior Chief"
Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Chief"
Petty Officers - "Petty Officer"
Seamen - "Seaman," "Constructionman," "Fireman," "Hospitalman," "Airman"...though I've found that most are good with "Seaman."

Interesting enough though Marine Corps regulations state a Lance Corporal can be referred to as Corporal. You will never see a Marine do that. I didn't even know myself until an AF female pointed it out to me after I constantly corrected her while I was stationed at the Marine Corps Airfield Arrival and Departure Control Group on Kadena AB. I got to learn a lot about AF customs then.
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com

stillamarine

Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 01:25:59 PM
Quote from: phirons on May 25, 2012, 01:13:46 PM
That said, I would make every attempt to address an active / reserve / guard NCO by the customs / regulations of their service. Now if I could ever get my head around the Navy enlisted structure...

Most are Petty Officers and Chiefs, though internally they like to refer to each other by their MOS.

How do you tell the difference between a Chief and a Senior Chief?

They will tell you...

I remember when I was a cadet in the late 80s doing some kind of fund raiser in front of the exchange. I see this navy guy walking up in khakis and he's got shiny stuff on his collars. So I saluted and he told me he was just a chief. He got a good laugh out of it. He said the way to tell between the two when they are in khakis is the shoes. I believe it's chiefs that wear brown shoes and officers wear black. Or the other way around I forgets.
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com

The CyBorg is destroyed

^^I thought brown shoes indicated a naval aviator?

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on May 24, 2012, 07:37:39 PM
My experience and practice differ. Also, a lot depends on who is senior to whom when the addressing occurs.

Your experience with Soldiers is undoubtedly greater than mine.  My dad was in the Army, back when the Specialist grades were first introduced - they went clear up to Specialist 9.  He'd gone from National Guard to active Army.  He was a Corporal in the Guard but lost his stripes and had to put on Specialist 4.  He said that back then the Specialist grades were to be kind of like an enlisted version of warrant officers.  Now promotion to Corporal is the exception rather than the rule.  He said that he was rarely addressed as "Specialist 4," it was usually just "Spec 4."

All the different ratings in the USN/USCG (though I did learn some as a CG Auxiliarist) are a mystery to me so I just address them by what's on their sleeve, and of course commissioned/warrant officers as "Sir/Ma'am."  I know that just because of what's on my shoulders as a CAP Captain I visually (not legally) "outrank" O-1, O-2 and WO/CWO's, but I salute all commissioned/warrants regardless of grade.  They're military officers and I'm a CAP officer.  They did a lot more to earn what they've got than I did.

So how does this relate to addressing CAP NCO's?  A former squadron had a retired Army SFC Drill Sergeant join, and he wanted to keep his NCO grade, so he came in as a CAP MSgt.  Even with all his experience from his Army days, he still had to catch himself now and again on the various levels of sergeant in AF/CAP grade, especially given that they've changed both title and insignia over the years.

I always thought it was a bad idea to bin Buck Sergeant and to give E-2, E-3 and E-4 back the silver star in the centre of their stripes...going from SrA to "buck" may be a lateral promotion within grade, but it was important symbolically, in that it was a clear transition to the NCO corps.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

SarDragon

Brown shoes used to be a distinguishing feature between the chiefs and officers in the aviation community (brown shoes), and those not (black shoes). That line has blurred significantly over the years. I don't have the time right now to look it up, but I think there is some overlap now.

What do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Non-rates (E-3 and below) are called Seaman, Airman, etc., depending on the color of the stripes on their dress uniforms. In working uniforms, it's a guess. They will let you know soon enough if you get it wrong.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

Quote from: SarDragon on May 25, 2012, 06:06:21 PMWhat do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Maybe it's anomalous to the RTC, but in the last 4-5 years, we've seen PO's, especially, referring to each other as much by rate (CM1, HC3, etc.), as by
grade, though on the recruit side it is definitely "Petty Officer", "Chief Petty Officer" (etc.).

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 06:11:28 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 25, 2012, 06:06:21 PMWhat do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Maybe it's anomalous to the RTC, but in the last 4-5 years, we've seen PO's, especially, referring to each other as much by rate (CM1, HC3, etc.), as by
grade, though on the recruit side it is definitely "Petty Officer", "Chief Petty Officer" (etc.).

That's pretty much an internal thing. It's grown over the past few years, and is usually among folks who know each other. For us outsiders, my previous post is more applicable. The folks in my shop might call me AT1, but out and about on the base, I'm more likely to hear Petty Officer Bowles.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

krnlpanick

Just found this - thought it may be helpful? (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFPAM34-1202.pdf)

Quote from: AFPAM34-1202
Table A3.6.  TITLES AND FORMS OF ADDRESS
* Use the full rank in the address element
** For the Army and Air Force: In salutations and place cards, the base rank is used, e.g., Sergeant Doe,
not Staff Sergeant Doe. The specific rank of Marine Noncommissioned officers is customarily used on
invitations and place cards as well as salutations.
*** In conversation use Chief as appropriate

Noncommissioned Officers (Air Force, Army, Marine Corps)
Envelope: 
official: Full rank Scott A. Doe, USAF*
social: Full rank* (and Mrs.) Scott A. Doe

Salutation:
Dear Sergeant** (and Mrs.) Doe: 
or for a woman NCO
Dear Sergeant** Doe (and Mr. Doe): 

Complimentary Close:
Sincerely,

Invitation:
Full rank** (and Mrs.) Doe

Place Card:
Sergeant**Doe
Mrs. (Mr.) Doe

Introductions:
(Full rank) Doe and (Mrs. (Mr.) Doe)

Conversation:
Base Rank*** Doe
Mrs. (Mr.) Doe
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: SarDragon on May 25, 2012, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 06:11:28 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 25, 2012, 06:06:21 PMWhat do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Maybe it's anomalous to the RTC, but in the last 4-5 years, we've seen PO's, especially, referring to each other as much by rate (CM1, HC3, etc.), as by
grade, though on the recruit side it is definitely "Petty Officer", "Chief Petty Officer" (etc.).

That's pretty much an internal thing. It's grown over the past few years, and is usually among folks who know each other. For us outsiders, my previous post is more applicable. The folks in my shop might call me AT1, but out and about on the base, I'm more likely to hear Petty Officer Bowles.
I worked a joint assignment a few years back with some navy type.  Between themselves they would say "aviation mate" and "FC Mate" but us USAF types just called them Seaman 1st, PO 2nd, Chief.  They did not expect us to be able to read their insignia....so the accepted the generic titles from us.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LTCTerry

Old thread, but just in case someone actually reads this far:

Navy Shoes

"Brown shoes" are for aviators or in aviation rates, regardless of officer/chief status. Sometime in the 60s (?) brown shoes went away but came back in the mid/late 80s.

"Black shoes" are worn by anyone not in aviation.

Break, break...

Back when I was a very young guy it was quite common for USAF officers to address USAF NCOs by their first name. As a Navy junior and later an Army officer than just didn't work for me.

TP

SarDragon

According to the latest USN Uni reg, brown shoes are optional for anyone, E-7 and above, wearing the khaki uniform.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Storm Chaser

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 24, 2012, 02:39:41 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 12:58:55 AM
Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?
As someone who has been in the active duty Air Force, Air National Guard and currently in the Air Force Reserve, I can tell you that sir and ma'am are not only appropriate to use with NCOs (and even airmen), but are used frequently. The Army may be different, but CAP is a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force so we should use those customs used by the Air Force, unless otherwise stated by CAP regulations.

NorCal21

Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

For instance, you wouldn't refer to a lance corporal as corporal. Entirely different rank. You refer to a first sergeant as sergeant and let's just you'll be corrected. Now, CAP or the AF may have their own courtesy in this area, and that's why I said you should check first.

You call a Sailor or Coastie who's a Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class (BM3) as BM or boatswain's mate... he'll ignore you or correct you.

Officer ranks can be shortened to the main rank such as a 2LT or 1LT to just lieutenant.

NorCal21

Quote from: RSalort on November 09, 2012, 07:34:36 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 24, 2012, 02:39:41 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 12:58:55 AM
Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?
As someone who has been in the active duty Air Force, Air National Guard and currently in the Air Force Reserve, I can tell you that sir and ma'am are not only appropriate to use with NCOs (and even airmen), but are used frequently. The Army may be different, but CAP is a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force so we should use those customs used by the Air Force, unless otherwise stated by CAP regulations.

Well my active duty experience with the AF is limited to a one time convoy to Seymour Johnson AFB in NC. However, I can tell you from first hand experience that in the Marines (I'm a former Marine), Navy, Army and Coast Guard you DO NOT EVER refer to any enlisted person as sir or ma'am. Its incorrect by customs and courtesies. You refer to them by their rank such as "yes staff sergeant" or "no chief." Referring to an enlisted person by sir or ma'am is akin to calling them an officer.

Also, in the Marines you never refer to an officer by their rank unless you need to differentiate between multiple officers at which point you call them by name and rank only. You never refer to an officer by rank alone.

lordmonar

Quote from: NorCal21 on December 29, 2012, 07:07:39 AM
Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

For instance, you wouldn't refer to a lance corporal as corporal. Entirely different rank. You refer to a first sergeant as sergeant and let's just you'll be corrected. Now, CAP or the AF may have their own courtesy in this area, and that's why I said you should check first.

You call a Sailor or Coastie who's a Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class (BM3) as BM or boatswain's mate... he'll ignore you or correct you.

Officer ranks can be shortened to the main rank such as a 2LT or 1LT to just lieutenant.
As an AD USAF SNCO who worked a joint assignment with all four services....you will find that really they don't care.  Once in a blue moon you will get someone who may say something...but really.....I would not know a BM3 from an ET3....they are all Seaman or Petty Officer to us USAF guys.   

Now....if Staff Sergeant John Hardcore tells you to call him "Staff Sergeant" you do it....other then that...we are the USAF auxillary....let's just follow the USAF tradtions and let the other services take care of themselves.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Private Investigator

Quote from: stillamarine on May 25, 2012, 01:34:19 PMI was stationed at the Marine Corps Airfield Arrival and Departure Control Group on Kadena AB. I got to learn a lot about AF customs then.

Every Sunday I use to take the bus from McTureous to Kadena for a steak dinner and a sundae. Great times for a teenager   ;)

LGM30GMCC

Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
Quote from: NorCal21 on December 29, 2012, 07:07:39 AM
Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

For instance, you wouldn't refer to a lance corporal as corporal. Entirely different rank. You refer to a first sergeant as sergeant and let's just you'll be corrected. Now, CAP or the AF may have their own courtesy in this area, and that's why I said you should check first.

You call a Sailor or Coastie who's a Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class (BM3) as BM or boatswain's mate... he'll ignore you or correct you.

Officer ranks can be shortened to the main rank such as a 2LT or 1LT to just lieutenant.
As an AD USAF SNCO who worked a joint assignment with all four services....you will find that really they don't care.  Once in a blue moon you will get someone who may say something...but really.....I would not know a BM3 from an ET3....they are all Seaman or Petty Officer to us USAF guys.   

Now....if Staff Sergeant John Hardcore tells you to call him "Staff Sergeant" you do it....other then that...we are the USAF auxillary....let's just follow the USAF tradtions and let the other services take care of themselves.

If Staff Sergeant Hardcore is growling at me to call him 'Staff Sergeant' I'm likely to start growling at him to call every lieutenant by their full rank. (Assuming we're talking USAF Staff Sergeant) If it's a non-USAF guy who has gone into the CAP NCO 'corps' (hard to call it that, since it has no real organization/purpose right now) I would probably educate him on the USAF culture a bit. Culturally the USAF seems to be more relaxed about this sort of thing. Hard to say exactly why that is, maybe it's just how our tradition has formed. Maybe it's because our primary operators are overwhelmingly officers who work closely with small groups of NCOs and it's just formed a more relaxed atmosphere.

Nuke52

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on December 29, 2012, 08:23:02 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
Now....if Staff Sergeant John Hardcore tells you to call him "Staff Sergeant" you do it....other then that...we are the USAF auxillary....let's just follow the USAF tradtions and let the other services take care of themselves.
If Staff Sergeant Hardcore is growling at me to call him 'Staff Sergeant' I'm likely to start growling at him to call every lieutenant by their full rank. (Assuming we're talking USAF Staff Sergeant) If it's a non-USAF guy who has gone into the CAP NCO 'corps' (hard to call it that, since it has no real organization/purpose right now) I would probably educate him on the USAF culture a bit. Culturally the USAF seems to be more relaxed about this sort of thing. Hard to say exactly why that is, maybe it's just how our tradition has formed. Maybe it's because our primary operators are overwhelmingly officers who work closely with small groups of NCOs and it's just formed a more relaxed atmosphere.
Staff Sergeant Hardcore had better not be growling at me about anything, or he's in for an attitude adjustment tout de suite.  If he "tells me to" call him staff sergeant, he'll get a "thanks for your input, sergeant" or maybe an "I'll take that into consideration, John."  Politely requesting is another thing, but calling an AF staff sergeant "sergeant" is a respectful term of address, one I don't intend to deviate from.

I get that the other services have different traditions/courtesies, and I call them Top (Shirt), Sergeant Major, Master Chief, as appropriate, but when that person joins CAP, they're following our traditions now, and when they're wearing our uniform, it's Sergeant or Chief.

CAP is the AF Auxiliary and we ought to follow AF traditions whenever possible.
Lt Col
Wilson Awd

saleet

When I was inthe Navy you called someone either Petty Officer or Chief.  E3 and below Airman, Fireman etc.

NorCal21

Quote from: Nuke52 on December 30, 2012, 10:20:29 PM
Politely requesting is another thing, but calling an AF staff sergeant "sergeant" is a respectful term of address, one I don't intend to deviate from.

I get that the other services have different traditions/courtesies, and I call them Top (Shirt), Sergeant Major, Master Chief, as appropriate, but when that person joins CAP, they're following our traditions now, and when they're wearing our uniform, it's Sergeant or Chief.

CAP is the AF Auxiliary and we ought to follow AF traditions whenever possible.

In actuality, referring to someone who's more than a sergeant as just sergeant is an informal thing. It is accepted in the AF as a matter of custom, but you would refer to a master sergeant as just that if you are being formal or you don't know the person. That comes from a friend who's a staff sergeant at Kunsan AB.

I refer to enlisted personnel by their full title at all times unless they tell me to do otherwise. I refer to officers higher in grade as sir, and lower in grade as Mr. usually or by their title. Officer titles are entirely different than enlisted when it comes to addressing them in familiar terms. While there are some people who have requested a more familiar title such as just sergeant, anyone who would come into my squadron as a transfer or new member would always be addressed by their full rank until they say otherwise. Any less is disrespectful. I'm not their friend or their drinking buddy.

CAP is made up of veterans of all seven uniformed services, as well as people who've never served. It is not the AF. Educating people to AF customs and courtesies is one thing, but absolutely refusing to abide by a person's request or the tradition they are used to is not right.

So to close, while it may be customary in the AF to refer to all types of sergeants as sergeant as an informal title, there is nothing wrong, nor prohibited anywhere, from that person requested that they be addressed by their entire title. Put it this way... you are less likely to upset an enlisted person if you just refer to them by their entire title rather than taking the liberty of referring to them by a title that denotes some sense of familiarity or informality that they would not approve of. Give THEM the opportunity to say how they want to be addressed.

Nuke52

#59
Quote from: Nuke52 on December 30, 2012, 10:20:29 PM
Politely requesting is another thing, but calling an AF staff sergeant "sergeant" is a respectful term of address, one I don't intend to deviate from.

I get that the other services have different traditions/courtesies, and I call them Top (Shirt), Sergeant Major, Master Chief, as appropriate, but when that person joins CAP, they're following our traditions now, and when they're wearing our uniform, it's Sergeant or Chief.

CAP is the AF Auxiliary and we ought to follow AF traditions whenever possible.

I didn't want to get into one of these line-by-line, nitpicking-how-you're-wrong things, which makes me look like I think I'm some kind of know-it-all, so I had considered responding to your post simply by dropping the issue with a "YMMV," but that would be a missed opportunity to educate a fellow CAP member and a disservice to anyone who happened to read your post and think it correct.  So, here goes...  First off, it's apparent a good read-through of CAPP 151 is necessary--it even extols for us in black and white the virtues of following the customs & courtesies of our "parent service."  While it does not address (pun intended) SM NCOs, one can infer from its treatment of cadet NCO grades and SM lieutenants and colonels how a sergeant of any stripe (!) should be addressed.  For more advanced reading, I refer you to AFPAM 34-1202, AF Protocol.

Quote from: NorCal21 on December 31, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
In actuality, referring to someone who's more than a sergeant as just sergeant is an informal thing. It is accepted in the AF as a matter of custom, but you would refer to a master sergeant as just that if you are being formal or you don't know the person. That comes from a friend who's a staff sergeant at Kunsan AB.

Wrong.  It is not an informal thing, it is the correct way to address an NCO in the AF.  Other than perhaps in initial training, you do not hear AF personnel running around saying, "yes, Technical Sergeant; no, Technical Sergeant; this airman does not know, Technical Sergeant, but he will find out; etc....," and certainly no officers are saying that to their enlisted professionals.  Perhaps you misunderstood what your SSgt friend was saying or perhaps he/she misunderstood your question. 

Quote from: NorCal21 on December 31, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
I refer to enlisted personnel by their full title at all times unless they tell me to do otherwise. I refer to officers higher in grade as sir, and lower in grade as Mr. usually or by their title. Officer titles are entirely different than enlisted when it comes to addressing them in familiar terms. While there are some people who have requested a more familiar title such as just sergeant, anyone who would come into my squadron as a transfer or new member would always be addressed by their full rank until they say otherwise. Any less is disrespectful. I'm not their friend or their drinking buddy.
You do what you think you need to, just be advised that it's wrong.  I get the feeling you're coming from a Navy background here, so it's understandable you'd get some things confused, but calling an AF (and thus, CAP) officer who's lower in grade than you "Mr." is flat-out wrong and if he knew you were doing it out of anything other than ignorance, he would be insulted.  I do not speak to SMSgts with "thank you, Senior Master Sergeant Smith" (nor do I use "Senior"), I also would NEVER say, "1st Lieutenant Jones, please hand me that binder," "Sergeant" and "Lieutenant," respectively, are correct--NOT informal.  And I can assure you that I am a drinking buddy of neither of them...

Quote from: NorCal21 on December 31, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
CAP is made up of veterans of all seven uniformed services, as well as people who've never served. It is not the AF. Educating people to AF customs and courtesies is one thing, but absolutely refusing to abide by a person's request or the tradition they are used to is not right.
Again, no.  Whether a member is a veteran of another service is completely irrelevant for anything other than what they get to put on their uniform.  You're right in that CAP is not the AF--it is, however, the AF auxiliary, and again, I refer you to CAPP 151, which tells us how important it is to follow "AF-style protocol."  "Refusing to abide by the tradition someone is used to" is completely appropriate if they're coming into the AF auxiliary expecting to be treated with sea service protocol.  That's not how it works.  If they're expecting you to call them "Sergeant First Class Jones" in CAP, I think there's probably a different organization somewhere that will better suit their needs--and ours.  In a (hypothetical) other organization I (don't really) belong to, I am accorded the honorific "Chief Grand Poobah of Poobahliciousness."  I join CAP and then expect the same tradition I'm used to.  Kosher, right?  no.

Quote from: NorCal21 on December 31, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
So to close, while it may be customary in the AF to refer to all types of sergeants as sergeant as an informal title, there is nothing wrong, nor prohibited anywhere, from that person requested that they be addressed by their entire title. Put it this way... you are less likely to upset an enlisted person if you just refer to them by their entire title rather than taking the liberty of referring to them by a title that denotes some sense of familiarity or informality that they would not approve of. Give THEM the opportunity to say how they want to be addressed.
One last time, it is NOT an informal title.  It is the prescribed term of address in both CAPP 151 and AFPAM 34-1202.  Using the prescribed terms is NOT "taking liberty," nor does it denote any sense of "familiarity or informality," and I couldn't care less if they don't approve of it.  If a CAP enlisted member is going to be "upset" by someone following our (prescribed-in-official-documents) customs, again, they're probably a better fit for some other outfit.  As to giving them the courtesy of how they want to be addressed, absolutely:  I'll honor their request whether it's "John, Johnathon, Johnny, Doc, Red, Blitz, whatever"; but what's in the CAPP 151/AFPAM 34-1202 is non-negotiable. 
Lt Col
Wilson Awd

FlyTiger77

#60
Quote from: NorCal21 on December 29, 2012, 07:07:39 AM
Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

As your response pertains to the Army, you are incorrect (and it is irelevant if an Army NCO is "...all right with that..." or not). Per AR 600-20 (chapter 2), when spoken to in conversation, all NCOs are referred to as "Sergeant". The exceptions are Corporals, First Sergeants and Sergeants Major. In many places, Soldiers make an exception for Master Sergeants as well, but that is not supported by the regulation.

Any NCO who attempts to make a correction to the contrary is out of line (and in over 21 years with the organization, I have not seen any make the attempt).

Also, again in the Army, subordinate officers are not referred to as "Mister/Miss" by more senior officers. More often than not, they are referred to by their first names. Of course, there are (many) exceptions.

As it has been pointed out elsewhere, the other service's customs and courtesies should only inform our actions in CAP when USAF/CAP customs and courtesies are silent.
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

LGM30GMCC

Because it's fun to confuse the issue even more and throw a monkey wrench into things, I guess I'll give a window into the operations world; at least the slice I work in with missile ops.

NOTE CAUTION WARNING: This is simply a cultural exposition. I do not recommend use of this in CAP, it is for educational purposes only!

For us a lot of how terms of address depends on your relative position (rank) as opposed to grade. For example, Deputy Missile Combat Crew Instructors sometimes refer to higher ranking instructors very informally, however it is considered culturally unacceptable for line deps to refer to crew commander Captains, or any instructor/evaluator this way. Except in the case that they were crewed together and had a positive crew experience together.

Crew commanders frequently use just a first or last name with each other. If rank is being broken out it usually means someone isn't happy about something.

People in O-4 and above billets are always referred to as 'Sir/Ma'am.' This one was a bit confusing/disconcerting for our chief of training who came from a flying unit that was even more relaxed (very specialized missileers). He would say 'Guys, I'm just 'Bill'' And we would respond 'Uh, Yes, Sir.' Finally some of us were chatting and just explained it wasn't that we were being unfriendly, but that he wasn't 'Just a captain' like the rest of us. He was our boss and pretty high in the pecking order. He would also be a major soon so we all just called him 'Sir.' Eventually he became a major and it was a moot point anyway.

I now work in a shop that is mixed NCO/Officer and it is also very relaxed. All of the officers (save the major) are Captains and the NCOs are SSgt to MSgt. It's a complete mish-mash of titles/last names, and 'Sirs' flying around. The key is we treat each other respectfully. If that were to start to evaporate there would be some problems, but for the work we do, when it's just our shop, we are very relaxed.

Again, the previous has been for informational purposes only. It might be usable among SMs when in informal situations away from cadets. Otherwise it's just to show what the culture of the service really is like among at least a small slice of the officer corps of the USAF. Not recommended for training purposes.

Eclipse

#62
Nuance is something that CAP members tend to be terrible at, especially those without prior service.
There is so little contact time and attention paid to these baseline issues that they either become
way too prevalent, or are ignored.  Neither is proper.

Everything outside what is written puts you at risk.  The "risk" being relative to your G-A-S factor.

How you may interact with a superior with whom you spend hours a day in the trenches should have no bearing on
how you interact with someone you just met, or have no established informal relationship, and in the CAP world,
we should stand on formality in all cases where cadets are within earshot.

Just because your unit CC is uncomfortable with "Sir", doesn't give you carte blanche to address anyone else in a less formal way.

My experience has been that, outside the mean, there are two extremes - the relatively small group with legitimate street cred
both in the military and CAP who "get it" and choose to be less formal, with the ability to turn it on as necessary, and those
with zero street cred anywhere who are either passive-aggressively trying to downplay their lack of authority / grade / position
by disdaining courtesies, and / or those who simply can't be bothered, period (and that is generally reflected in their duty
performance elsewhere as well).



"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG


Nuke52

Quote from: JeffDG on December 31, 2012, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on December 31, 2012, 06:19:14 PMIt's a complete mish-mash of titles/last names, and 'Sirs' flying around.
[Doctor Greetings - Spies Like Us[/url]
"Spies Like Us" --> Respect.

Every time I see an aerial chart of the 'Stan and see "Dunshanbe FIR," it makes me think of Spies Like Us and "the road to Dunshanbe..." and I chuckle. 
Lt Col
Wilson Awd