Uniform Phasing out

[Eclipse]

2.  If you don't wear the Jacket with it, it's just the white/grey with different pants.  What's the point?

Which would be white / blue, so 1/2 the uniform is different, not a minor thing.

Also, no military badges and the different nameplate.  Distinctive enough but uniform at a distance and for photos.

[Hawk200]

1.  If you wear the Jacket with it, still looks too AF.

It would look similar to the blues with the grey epaulettes on the jacket, and would be closer in uniformity with a standardized jacket.

2.  If you don't wear the Jacket with it, it's just the white/grey with different pants.  What's the point?

Uniformity again. Go to a wing event, and you'll see six different shades of grey pants. Not so with the CSU, the blue pants are all the same shade of blue. That would go a long way.

Now if they would just allow beards and longer hair with it, we could get back to two types of uniforms instead of three. Our utilities don't even differentiate as much as blues, CSU, and white/grey does.

[Smithsonia]

For anyone of the Uniform committee or National Staff who may be lurking. When 39-1 is redone it would be helpful if we could get a picture of each uniform approved. Start with White and Greys and add approved jacket or sweater and then approved outer wear coats. Do the same for duty uniforms and dress uniforms. Right now I can't figure out any of this stuff and as this thread indicates - we all have various ideas.

There are more regulations and ideas than anyone can fit together in any coherent fashion.

I am for simplified uni's
1. Dress (whatever one you like but just one please. Well male and female versions of course)
2. Utility (perhaps 2, one for flight and one for ground, I suggest BBDUs and Dark blue flight suits for everybody)
3. Golf Shirt and or Whites with Grays for liaison and comfort while in office or training.

Add a sweater, add an outer coat/jacket/black A2, add gloves, add hats. 20-25 photos tops for all approved uniform items.
Add exceptions below the pictures for approved berets, raincoats, or whatever. Close up thumbnails of these will work.

The current 39-1 reflects a time when duplicating photos was expensive and added much to printing
costs. Being that 39-1 is either on CD or online... that is no longer the case.

Simply put: Tell us what you want. Give us a way to do it. We will comply. We're trying to be good about this. But, you are confusing us.

[Hawk200]

3. Golf Shirt with Grays for liaison and comfort while in office or training.

The other stuff aside, what need is there for a gold shirt?

[JoeTomasone]

1.  If you wear the Jacket with it, still looks too AF.

It would look similar to the blues with the grey epaulettes on the jacket, and would be closer in uniformity with a standardized jacket.

Exactly, and when the first out-of-weight member is spotted in what appears to be the blues, someone on the USAF side is bound to get bent out of shape.

2.  If you don't wear the Jacket with it, it's just the white/grey with different pants.  What's the point?

Uniformity again. Go to a wing event, and you'll see six different shades of grey pants. Not so with the CSU, the blue pants are all the same shade of blue. That would go a long way.

Too far, I think, as above. 

IIWIC, we'd have:

USAF Blues, BDUs, Flight suit for those meeting standards

Greys (w/standard shade), BBDUs, Blue flight suit for those who do not.

Yes, I'd advocate getting rid of all of the others. 

[Smithsonia]

Hawk 200.
You've misread the quote provided by me. I said "Golf" Shirt (check my quote in your own posting) and you interpreted it as "gold" shirt. I can't account for member dyslexia.

[Hawk200]

Exactly, and when the first out-of-weight member is spotted in what appears to be the blues, someone on the USAF side is bound to get bent out of shape.

As someone who has been on the Air Force side, I seriously doubt that a double breasted coat with a white shirt is going to be mistaken for an Air Force service dress. The outfit was supposed to look very close to Air Force service dress with enough differentiation that it wasn't. I'd bet that most Air Force personnel had a response of "Who/What is that?" It's different enough that any airman out of boot isn't going to even confuse it with semi-formal.

Too far, I think, as above.

Uniformity among ourselves. The grey slacks vary in color that there is little uniformity to the concept. It's a cobbled together concept that's lacking.

IIWIC, we'd have:

USAF Blues, BDUs, Flight suit for those meeting standards

Greys (w/standard shade), BBDUs, Blue flight suit for those who do not.

Yes, I'd advocate getting rid of all of the others.

With a standardized jacket and grey pants, you'd get my vote. But right now there aren't  standardized grey pants, but there are standardized blue pants. They're here, now, why not use them?

[Hawk200]

I can't account for member dyslexia.

Or civility.

[JoeTomasone]

Exactly, and when the first out-of-weight member is spotted in what appears to be the blues, someone on the USAF side is bound to get bent out of shape.

As someone who has been on the Air Force side, I seriously doubt that a double breasted coat with a white shirt is going to be mistaken for an Air Force service dress. The outfit was supposed to look very close to Air Force service dress with enough differentiation that it wasn't. I'd bet that most Air Force personnel had a response of "Who/What is that?" It's different enough that any airman out of boot isn't going to even confuse it with semi-formal.

Well, remember, concern about looking too much like an AF uniform is why it's on the way out in the first place.

But right now there aren't  standardized grey pants, but there are standardized blue pants. They're here, now, why not use them?

I just want to settle on a uniform that won't change in a year.   If we can find a standard shade of grey -- heck, let Vanguard sell it for those who can't find it -- the greys make much more sense, jacket notwithstanding.  I don't have a grand answer for that one.

As for the shade, I'd say it needs to match the epaulet slides; but I have no earthly idea what shade that is.

I have all three dress uniforms - CSU (no jacket), greys, and blues, but I always wear the blues.  I have the greys in case for some reason I've let my hair go.  The CSU just really added the blue slides.   (And can I say that I was looking forward to wearing my Capt blue slides when I got home?!  I bought them so that I'd have incentive to get promoted..  Sigh..)

Maybe I'll have them shipped here and give them to the USAF 1st Lt across the way - paying forward the incentive. 

[Hawk200]

Well, remember, concern about looking too much like an AF uniform is why it's on the way out in the first place.

Because it used hard rank, Air Force officer insignia, and a blue nametag similar in design to an Air Force one. "U.S." collar brass got changed out for CAP cutouts pretty early in the game. The problem was more in the insignia than it was in the components.

If we can find a standard shade of grey --

But why go looking to standardize a color when one is already here? The CSU blue shade is standardized. We could have a standardized uniform that's a lot more associative with the Air Force variants today, rather than whatever development time would be required to come up with a standardized color.

I'm considering at the practical availability of the pieces, and what many members already have. We don't need to look. In fact, looking at other avenues is overlooking what we have. That's wasteful.

There is so much we could do with what's available to clean up our uniforms, but we seem to get stuck on our exclusivity. If the CSU as configured with today's letter had been the one originally produced, we might not have had any (or near as many) issues in the first place.

[Spike]

So here is what I understand as the general consensus.....

We can look almost like Air Force if we are not overweight or have a beard. 

If we are overweight or have a beard we need to wear something SO different from all other CAP members that we do not even look like we are in the same Civil Air Patrol.

How about getting rid of all Air Force uniforms.  Would those that meet wear requirements for Air Force style hate that, be upset and post dislike for it on this board??  You bet you all would.

I see a double standard here.  The "it doesn't effect/affect me, so to hell with those that are being caught in the middle". AND "I meet requirements for AF Style, am better than you and you need to get out of a uniform that has metal rank on it because I can not wear metal rank on my Air Force Jacket".

That is what it boils down to, I think some AF-Style wearing members are upset that CSU wearing members don't have to wear grey junk and look more professional.

[JoeTomasone]

That is what it boils down to, I think some AF-Style wearing members are upset that CSU wearing members don't have to wear grey junk and look more professional.

How could that be so when they have the option of wearing the same uniform?

You are right, of course - I absolutely desire to wear the USAF style uniforms.   I'm proud of the fact that we are the USAF's Auxiliary, and I think it's entirely appropriate that we have the USAF style uniforms.    That being said, we don't have a policy of "get in shape and get cleaned up or you're out!" that the military does - of course, we haven't the same needs.   

What I truly would like to see would be the USAF relaxing the standards (and perhaps accepting medical waivers?) to allow more of our membership that currently does not meet the weight standard to wear the USAF uniforms.    The grooming standards, however, I feel should then apply to all members.   If you want to join a quasi-military organization and wear a military-style uniform, you have to expect to at least meet things halfway.   If you insist on retaining the ZZ Top beard, then that is the choice you make.   

Further, I would *love* to see more Commanders enforcing proper uniform wear. 

I realize that all of this has little chance of happening... But hey, it's bedtime, can't I dream?

[FARRIER]

Vanguard is still selling the trousers. I wonder if this means that those Senior Members still wishing to do so, can purchase the trousers and the flight cap, especially if they are working with cadets. Just thinking out loud.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think the way the CSU was "introduced" had at least as much to do with the grief over it as the similarity to the AF uniform did.

If it had come out with AF approval, which would have meant grey epaulette sleeves and nameplate most likely, I doubt this would be happening the way it has.

[Earhart1971]

I have a problem with the whole process of elimination of the "Corporpate Uniform" White/Blue.

And Page 21 of the Agenda 2010 National Board has a very interesting attachment.

"One reason possibly cited for the elimination of the CAP Corporate Uniform was its
somewhat similarity to the new Army Blue Service Dress Uniform. The Army has done
away with their green service dress uniform and has updated an older blue uniform style
for the modern era. Differences are many between the CAP Corporate Uniform and this
Army uniform, but as you can see below, some similarities do exist."

And below this is in the 2010 Agenda is a picture of the "Army Uniform" that has just been implimented that conflicts with our Blue/White Corporate Uniform.

I have a problem with CAP changing its Uniform at all, but additional to that I object to CAP having to change for a NEW Combination, because the Army has a new Uniform.

I object to all this, the excuses and the whole process that got us to this point.

[FW]

^Maybe we will get some clarity about this with the NB meeting next week?

[Spike]

If it had come out with AF approval, which would have meant grey epaulette sleeves and nameplate most likely, I doubt this would be happening the way it has.

It had AF approval.  The AF told CAP "remove US Cutouts, and metal rank insignia from the flight cap".  By doing that, it meant there was approval for everything else regarding the CSU.  If they did not approve they would have instead said "get rid of it NOW", not 3 years later.   

[Eclipse]

Jan 2011.

Jan 2012
For the record.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I may start wearing my grey epaulettes and name tag right away, to show that at least ONE junior officer member of CAP doesn't have a problem with the "compromise" combination and in fact likes it a heckuva lot better than grey and white.

[Hawk200]

I may start wearing my grey epaulettes and name tag right away, to show that at least ONE junior officer member of CAP doesn't have a problem with the "compromise" combination and in fact likes it a heckuva lot better than grey and white.

Why not? I'd recommend that you print the letter out, and carry it for a while. Considering some of the stuff I've seen in the past as far as uniforms go, there's probably plenty of people that won't know of it.