We're no different

[RiverAux]

It has finally occurred to me that CAPTalk members are really no different than our official leaders when it comes to uniform issues. 

Everyone has got their own opinion on CAP uniforms and about the "right" mix of uniform combinations.  Every single one of us wouldn't hesitate to ram our opinions through the NB if we only had the power to do so.  And there are little subgroups out there that have elected themselves to solve the uniform "issue". 

So, are we really surprised that these things keep changing all the time and often change from one thing right back to the original way of doing it?  If we can't reach any sort of consensus here, what makes us think that any is likely to be formed on the NB that will last more than a year or two (as new Wing commanders come on board)? 

Short of a elimination of the CAP corporation and a re-assumption of total control of the organization by the AF, I don't see this ever changing. 


So, we're really no better than the Wing Kings and the National Commander in this regard, so maybe we should cut them a little bit of slack.   

[lordmonar]

You are right.

Hence one of my suggestions to do away with the NB and NEC as they are today.

This also spills over into just about every aspect of CAP.  Getting anything done through the NB requires a lot of strong arm tactics.....and also leads to the politics and empire building that leads to the HWSRN's that are out there.

My suggestion is to let the BoG's do the governing and allowing the National Commander and his/her staff come up with the regulations to get the mission done.

This does not mean that input from the wings is not needed but we eliminate the politics involved.

[ZigZag911]

Eliminate winter board meeting. Replace it with a meeting of NEC, which should be its only yearly meeting.

In between in person meetings, perhaps if more of the NB voting were conducted by email, there'd be less opportunity for canvassing and lining up factions.

An easier change than one to CAP constitution.

[Eclipse]

Yes, by all means let's make a comparison between an experienced body of corporate officers who have specific authority and limitations with an internet forum where 1/2 the people are anonymous.

[Hawk200]

Yes, by all means let's make a comparison between an experienced body of corporate officers who have specific authority and limitations with an internet forum where 1/2 the people are anonymous.

What does an Internet forum have to do with it?

[NCRblues]

Yes, by all means let's make a comparison between an experienced body of corporate officers who have specific authority and limitations with an internet forum where 1/2 the people are anonymous.

Eclipse, are you feeling ok? Your latest posts have been even more cynical than normal.

[JC004]

Yes, by all means let's make a comparison between an experienced body of corporate officers who have specific authority and limitations with an internet forum where 1/2 the people are anonymous.

I agree.  It's their job to run the organization.  This is just an online outlet for venting and a resource for CAP members.  It isn't our job to go about the business of running our units here.  If you spend the time at your meeting discussing a random new uniform idea instead of running your unit, that's different.

[Hawk200]

Yes, by all means let's make a comparison between an experienced body of corporate officers who have specific authority and limitations with an internet forum where 1/2 the people are anonymous.

I agree.  It's their job to run the organization.  This is just an online outlet for venting and a resource for CAP members.  It isn't our job to go about the business of running our units here.  If you spend the time at your meeting discussing a random new uniform idea instead of running your unit, that's different.

How many people actually read and, in turn, allowed what Zig said to register? Because from the looks of it, at least two people haven't.

[SamFranklin]

It has finally occurred to me that CAPTalk members are really no different than our official leaders when it comes to uniform issues. 

This is a refreshing post. I would like to see more CT members make similar reflections, be open to different views, and not be afraid of admitting that they've changed their minds.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Short of a elimination of the CAP corporation and a re-assumption of total control of the organization by the AF, I don't see this ever changing. 

I have been saying since the late '90s that this is what should happen.

The Coast Guard has a lot more control over its Auxiliary than the Air Force does over CAP...and their relationship is closer.

Some will disagree, but I believe that if we didn't have the cadet side providing warm bodies through Lackland AFB, the Air Force would have much less interest in us.

[Gunner C]

The AF has the interest that the congress tells it to have.  No more, no less.

[Cecil DP]

Eliminate winter board meeting. Replace it with a meeting of NEC, which should be its only yearly meeting.

In between in person meetings, perhaps if more of the NB voting were conducted by email, there'd be less opportunity for canvassing and lining up factions.

An easier change than one to CAP constitution.

The factions are caused not by the NEC and NB meeting,s, but the incestious relationships involved in the selection and continuation in office of the NB members. IE. National Commander selects Region Commanders, who select the Wing Commanders. Disagree with the Region Commander and you are a former Wing Commander, Have a dispute with the National Commander and you're a former Region Commander. Just look at the number of Corporate Officers who leave office early  soon after the National Board. I've had several Wing Commanders tell me that they voted for national candidates , because the Region Commander wanted that person-or else.

[Seabee219]

Yes everyone has there own opinion, but thats the good part of it. You all get your ideas out and come to a good choice for everyone. Asking the members what they want and what they are looking for.  To me asking everyone what they want makes your choice better for everyone.  different ideas are what make things interesting. 


JC

[Gunner C]

Eliminate winter board meeting. Replace it with a meeting of NEC, which should be its only yearly meeting.

In between in person meetings, perhaps if more of the NB voting were conducted by email, there'd be less opportunity for canvassing and lining up factions.

An easier change than one to CAP constitution.

The factions are caused not by the NEC and NB meeting,s, but the incestious relationships involved in the selection and continuation in office of the NB members. IE. National Commander selects Region Commanders, who select the Wing Commanders. Disagree with the Region Commander and you are a former Wing Commander, Have a dispute with the National Commander and you're a former Region Commander. Just look at the number of Corporate Officers who leave office early  soon after the National Board. I've had several Wing Commanders tell me that they voted for national candidates , because the Region Commander wanted that person-or else.

Over the past few years, there's been a secret ballot for CAP/CC, CV, etc (backlash from HWNBN).  I don't see how a region commander could tell.  However, many of the other votes are made by raised paddle. 

That system is ridiculous. We need to go back to an AF general officer as national commander who actually knows how to make an organization work.

[BillB]

I think a look at the early history of CAP is needed. For the first years CAP operated under the total control of the Army Air Force (after the first year under the Office of Civilian Defense) When CAP became a Public Corporation, the National Board was basically an advisor to the Commander of CAP-USAF who was a General garde officer. HQ CAP-USAF provided the guidance to the Wings through the Wing CAP-USAF Liaison Officers who advised the Wing Commanders. There was no term limits on Wing Commanders so many served for long periods. Regions were not operational, but in place to provide guidence to Wing staff's.
The National Commander of CAP had powers given by the Commander CAP-USAF in the running of the CAP Corporation. Somehow that has reversed and the National Commander CAP has almost all control and CAP USAF just says yeas or nay to changes in the Corporation.
Politics is rife under the current corporate structure. The multiple votes for Vice Commander provs that. But the politics in CAP runs down the chain of command and is strong in many Wings. Cliques have developed that control various aspects of the Wing organization. As many members of CAP with long service (I mean over thirty years) will tell you, CAP "ain't what it used to be". With the confusion on the mission(s) of CAP at all levels, a command structure that is like a three headed monsterand no clear line of a command strucrure as found in the Coast Guard Auxiliary, CAP will continue along the current rocky path. More control is needed from either USAF or the BoG, and for that matter Congress.

[FW]

The Air Force no longer has the money nor will to engage in the affairs of CAP as it was until 1994-1997; the time NHQ became "corporate" instead of blue and, Wing LO's became civilians. 

Civil Air Patrol is governed by a Board of Governors who, for better or worse, don't wish to delve into the politics of CAP nor consider it their problem.

The volunteer "commanders" in the respective wings are too busy dealing with day to day affairs in managing the needs of the membership; figuring out how to keep their radios, computers and stuff from disappearing and, leaving the other matters to the region commanders and the national officers. 

This could be the reason why we have so much to discuss here on CT.   We are like the NB and NEC.... to busy talking and caring about our own corner of the universe and, not taking a real stand on affairs which affect all of us.

Sure, it's great to argue inadfinitum over the color of a new corporate uniform; it's just not OK to translate it into action by demanding that a disparaged membership  needs to be reconnected with an organization with a tremendous past and, hopefully, a great future.

[High Speed Low Drag]

BG Brookfield was commander the last time I started CAP, but my hey-days as a cadet were under BG Cass and then Maj Gen Harwell.  I can't remember the USAF Col that was the main AF commander (Massingale??) but I can remember the bald gentleman that would always have the “I’m a nice guy but I can be not-so-nice: smile that I would see in the pictures of every publication.  There was not doubt in anyone minds that the National Commander may be in charge, but the good colonel held the trump card.  And we were not a part-time auxiliary, we had the active-duty Wing Liaison Officers & NCOs for support.  Seniors and cadets all wore the same uniform, (although there were the infamous Smurf Suits).  What happened?  How did we end up like this, adrift?

Some will disagree, but I believe that if we didn't have the cadet side providing warm bodies through Lackland AFB, the Air Force would have much less interest in us.

I agree with the above quote.   Ever since I have "come back" to CAP, I have seen the effects of a lack of top-down cohesive leadership.  Our wing commander does his best, but without a clear vision from National, it's hard to give a "big-picture" vision lower down.  I have no doubt that the cadet program is 90 % of why the AF doesn't the plug and cut CAP loose.  The other 10% is the former AF senior NCOs & officers (now CAP) that help keep a good word in the minds of AD AF.

Could it be a lack of mission or adversity?  CAP was formed in the face of WWII, transitioned and operated in the face of the Cold War, and now what?  Although terrorism is a threat, is it really a threat we can internalize – the way the threat of Hitler and later the USSR with their nukes did?  No – the very nature of terrorism is subversive.  In the absence of an outside threat (conflict), all groups turn inward for conflict – and strife breaks out because there is not a common rallying “mission.”  I am sure that if Congress said “OK CAP – effective in 2012, we are going to disband you, revoke your federal charter.  You no longer serve a purpose for the U.S.,” the issues of “I can fly the Archer and your can’t” and the “I’ll support your pet project if you support mine” days would disappear – we would all be fighting as one to save CAP from the chopping block.

We have demonstrated that we are not effective at governing ourselves.  How do we fix this?

[High Speed Low Drag]

This could be the reason why we have so much to discuss here on CT.   We are like the NB and NEC.... to busy talking and caring about our own corner of the universe and, not taking a real stand on affairs which affect all of us.

Sure, it's great to argue inadfinitum over the color of a new corporate uniform; it's just not OK to translate it into action by demanding that a disparaged membership  needs to be reconnected with an organization with a tremendous past and, hopefully, a great future.

FW - could you please explain?  I am confused at what you are saying - and what are the real affairs you are referring to?

[LTC Don]

Interesting thread, and content.  Our organization does have a unique structure, that is for sure.

In actualilty, we don't really have 'three' levels of governorship.  The NEC/NB relationship is essentially the same as it always has been.  The NEC and the BOG are the governing bodies.  The NEC ceases to exist when the National Board is in session.

I am in agreement, that the current command/political structure is a real problem.  Common sense should dictate the obvious conflict of interest in a National Commander appointing those at Region level who then vote for/against that same National Commander. Huh?  Whut?

But anyway, after reading through the Constitution and Bylaws, it is clear to me another Article needs to be insituted that clearly establishes basic uniform platforms (field (utility), dress, and flying) with regards to style, color, and fabric type and specify all bling to be managed by the regulatory process (CAPR 39-1?).  Seriously, adding or removing or changing a specialty badge is one thing, but just 'dropping' a whole uniform on a whim, or instituting a whole uniform the same way.....very stupid.

Someone mentioned in another thread about the USMC uniform, and the fact it has been virtually unchanged for many, many years.  I think we need that level of stability as an organization.

I believe the majority of the membership crave a long-term, stable uniform slate so they can feel confident in making purchases that will not be trashed at someone's whim.

The question becomes, in regards to this, is wording of the new Article.

Link to current CAP Constitution and Bylaws: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_Constitution_Bylaws_CAFAAE96BCA1C.pdf


Cheers,

[FW]

FW - could you please explain?  I am confused at what you are saying - and what are the real affairs you are referring to?

I've mentioned and explained my opinion on this in quite a number of recent posts.  As a former NB/NEC member, I've already made all the "difference" I could in CAP.  Now is the time for others to get involved and move to the top.  For members to make change in CAP, they must open up to more than just what is going on in their unit or, just talk about the state of things on CT.  I'm no longer interested in hearing excuses about why things can't be.  I'm no longer intereseted in hearing excuses about lack of time to be more involved in the "greater good". 
You either like the staus quo or, your not really interested in making positive change.  Either way, nothing will happen unless qualified and motivated members take the extra time, become more involved and move into positions of influence and authority. We need leaders more interested in the betterment of CAP than self.  You interested?