Dress Uniform?

[Becks]

I just had this sent to me from a friend. Its uh...interesting looking.



Maybe double tapping your breast insignia opens a communication channel with the commander. Beam me up scotty?

[capchiro]

If you can find some pictures of the uniforms worn by pilots and officers in WWI, you will see a strange resemblance, such as the collar, belt, coat length, etc.  Interesting..

[Pylon]

If you can find some pictures of the uniforms worn by pilots and officers in WWI, you will see a strange resemblance, such as the collar, belt, coat length, etc.  Interesting..

The Air Force is revisiting the service dress uniform to both pull in Air Force heritage and history, as well as make the uniform appear "more military."  There's an article on AFLink about this, along with more photos of the new uniform suggestions.

These are indeed modeled on older US uniforms -- in particular the ones worn by the likes of Gen. Billy Mitchell.  You'll notice a few changes, though, from the historical uniform, including a change from the leather belt with shoulder-strap (perhaps a bit too Prussian?).

There is also another option the USAF is considering that harkens back to the "Hap Arnold" uniform, with the notably large lapels.

The change is based on feedback from a large number of airmen who complain of the cheesy feel of the current service dress, that it resembles not so much the military as it does the corporate world.  Though my favorite was the AF quoting an airman who said that the current service dress is like "a cheap lesiure suit."   

[CAPChap]

These new uniforms look like something left over from a dining-In at a Star Trek convention!

When I first came into CAP, we were wearing the 4-button box-style coat with the service dress uniform. It was bulky and uncomfortable.

While some may think the new AF service dress uniform is a cheap leisure suit, it sure beats the heck out of this stuff!

[smj58501]

And while the CAP developith, the Army takeith away.... Check out the below link regarding getting rid of our green Class A's and using the Dress Blues as our "Dress Up" uniform.

http://www.army.mil/symbols/uniforms/

This announcement comes on the heels of the fielding of the Army Combat Uniform, which is a wash and wear no frills garment (with boots you don't shine, I happily add  :clap: )

Bottom line is they are trying to simplify our lives by making uniform care easier... I guess there is a war on or something. At any rate I can tell you no one I know is complaining about less uniforms to buy/ be issued and maintain. Perhaps a lesson here for the CAP and AF... only time will tell.

[cadetnelson]

They look like a mix between star trek and hitler's third reich (far right guy).  not sure which one has more influence...

However I agree with the feeling that the current service dress uniforms have a cheesy "corporate" feel to them.  When I joined CAP a few months ago, I was going to get "what I thought was" a service dress uniform.  Turns out it was the old service dress coat.  So, I took one look at the new service dress coats and said "huh, uh."

Personally, I think they look like a cheap blazer with some random token insignia pinned on.  Not to mention the fact that in CAPM 39-1, the cadet who models the new coat looks like he's wearing the wrong size jacket, which doesn't help matters.

I wish they would find a happy medium.  Not the current service dress, and hopefully not the ones in this picture.  Hmmm, what would this medium be??  [gasps] I know!  The old service dress uniform!!!  Or at least take some hints from the Army's blue service dress. It looks cool.

[mikeylikey]

I have always been in favor of the Army Blue Uniform.  If the Air Force supports moving to a uniform that represents its past, this would be a great uniform to sport it in.  I do believe the Army Blue Uniform was worn by those Airman transitioning form the Army to the Air Force up to and even afterwards until the early part of 1950.  It was a shame they decided to stop wearing it.  I guess it is something about the shoulder straps that shadow earlier times in military service. 
  I support moving from three separate uniforms in the Army to just one.  I think that is what the Air Force did many years ago, but the end result is what we have now.  I for one like the cut of the current AF service jacket.  It is modern and matches contemporary style.   I also did like getting rid of the nameplate.  Too bad that did not stick around.  We will have to wait and find out what is decided upon.

[Hammer]

  I support moving from three separate uniforms in the Army to just one.  I think that is what the Air Force did many years ago, but the end result is what we have now. 

Which three uniforms did the Air Force lose to one?  And was the one uniform the Blues?

[Chris Jacobs]

It doesn't look TOO bad.  I think they could lose the collars.

[cadetnelson]

Each time I look at the photo, each person looks different to me.

The left guy still looks like Star Trek, accentuated by his wings.
The middle lady looks like a police officer.
The guy on the right still looks to me like one of Hitler's officers (I think it has to do with his medals).

I would not like this uniform.  I still like the Army blues best and dislike the modern AF service coat.  It looks nothing like anything remotely military-like, and though the current style is more modern, etc.  we mustn't forget that the Air Force is military, therefore it makes sense to wear a uniform that stands out from what normal businesspeople wear.

If I were designing a uniform, I would choose to include the following:
--epaulets on shoulders (one of the key distinctions between military/civilian coats)
--four buttons on coat (I just think it looks better)
--point lapel (like the Army green class A)
--blue coat with silverish buttons (like now)
--nameplate
--pockets like the old service dress
--nameplate, ribbons, insignia, etc.
--patches on shoulder (grade, squadron, CAP patch whatever)

This oddly seems familiar...hmmm, what could it be??  Oh yeah!  The old service dress!! 

[shorning]

This oddly seems familiar...hmmm, what could it be??  Oh yeah!  The old service dress!! 

Yeah, congratulations!  You just designed the service coat of the 1960's.

[cadetnelson]

hmm, since you're typing I can't tell if it's sarcasm, but I'll laugh it off anyway.  ha ha....ha, ha...ha?

Well, it's just my personal opinion.  I just think it looks better and served it's purpose well, with no real need for change.  If we're gonna go with something new though, I would model it basically after the Army blue service uniform.  Now that's a sharp looking uniform, especially when it's being worn by someone who really takes pride in it...for example, the tomb guards at Arlington National Cemetery.   If you wanna see a sweet uniform, look at theirs.  It's immaculate!

[shorning]

If you wanna see a sweet uniform, look at theirs.  It's immaculate!

And has nothing to do with what an Air Force uniform should look like.

[ZigZag911]

The choker collars make them look like they ought to be lining up John Philip Sousa, ready to play "76 Trombones"!!

Current AF uniform is modelled on US Postal Service (I kid you not, so was Army green!)

Why not something along the lines of the Army Blue, only in AF blue shade??

[shorning]

Current AF uniform is modelled on US Postal Service (I kid you not, so was Army green!)

You do know that the current Air Force service dress uniform and the current Army Class A's are totally different, right?  The Air Force service dress used to look like the Army's Class A's, but that hasn't been the case in more than a decade.

[PWK-GT]

If you wanna see a sweet uniform, look at theirs.  It's immaculate!

And has nothing to do with what an Air Force uniform should look like.

Well, I can't seem to find that referrence where it says what the USAF uniform SHOULD look like. Of course, if it does exist, they'd be following it already.
Must just be 2 different OPINIONS......huh?

[cadetnelson]

Yeah, shorning.  Take my comments with a grain of salt, geesh.  I didn't say the army dress blues were the USAF air force uniform, I said they look sharp and that if the Air Force was designing a new uniform, which it seems they are according to the already posted pic, my opinion is that it would be cool to be loosely based off the army blues.  Afterall, the army blues and marine corps service dress look similar, but can obviously be distinguished from one another.  I propose a similar situation for the air force.

You said it had nothing to do with what an air force uniform should look like.  Are you the person who decides what the air force uniform should look like?  Cause I'm pretty sure nobody on this forum is the one, that's why we're discussing it.  Not putting down an ultimatum on "this is the way it is and should be, don't dare propose anything different."
Man, shorning, cool it on the responses.  This is discussion, not put down other people's ideas time.

If you wanna see a sweet uniform, look at theirs.  It's immaculate!

And has nothing to do with what an Air Force uniform should look like........

......You do know that the current Air Force service dress uniform and the current Army Class A's are totally different, right?  The Air Force service dress used to look like the Army's Class A's, but that hasn't been the case in more than a decade.........

.........Yeah, congratulations!  You just designed the service coat of the 1960's.

Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

[shorning]

You need to un-bunch your shorts...

If the Air Force is going to design a new uniform, what they should not do is simply copy another service and change the color.  The Air Force has a certain philosophy they use when they approach uniform design.  It should be something distinctly Air Force.  In part, that's what they are trying to do with the two proposed uniforms.  They are throw backs to what was worn by the Air Corps in WWI and WWII. 

Let me say this:  while many of you think it's "nifty" that you get to wear a uniform, some of us have more at stake with what the Air Force chooses.  While you get to "play" Air Force and can choose to wear the uniform or not, I have to wear it every day.  You can dream about pretty uniforms with lots of bling all day long, but that doesn't mean your ideas are in line with the Air Force's culture.

So you want to "discuss" uniforms, but you don't want to hear points that run counter to yours?  Okay:

"Wow!  What would be neato!  Gosh I sure would like to look like the Army!  They are so cool!  I can't wait to join the Army...er...I mean...Air Force!"

Is that more to your tastes?

Geesh...lighten up Francis...

[cadetnelson]

I'll preface this with a statement:  This will be my last post in this discussion.

Now to my points:
--You will notice that the first person to get defensive and touchy about the subject was a poster named shorning when he decided to criticize my remarks on the old service dress and go on to put down other's comments.

--Not sure where you got the idea I don't like people's ideas running counter to mine.  In fact, someone else disagreed with me further up in the post when they said they liked the modern AF uniform because it was more in line with contemporary style.  I don't remember getting my "shorts in a bunch" when he said that.  Why?  Because he made a dignified remark that was in line with the discussion rather than blatantly putting down other posters' remarks.

--I'm sorry, where did I say that the air force should...how did you put it....copy another service and change the color?  I said perhaps it should be loosely based on one another.  As I provided the example of the army/marine uniform:  both have light blue trousers with a line down the side (red: marine, goldish: army) and a darker coat.  Army has fewer buttons, marines have more.  They are easily distinguished yet their uniformity contributes to the idea that both branches serve the same country.  Why is it so much skin off your back if that is my opinion?  The least you could do is provide some intelligent discourse on the subject rather than putting down Civil Air Patrol for "playing air force".

--After all, if that's all we are really doing, "playing air force," then why is it that we are known for being the United States Air Force Auxiliary, flying the majority of search and rescue missions in America, providing security at the nation's largest air shows, etc. etc. etc.??

--Next time you'd like to put down CAP for "playing" air force, I would suggest choosing your forums more carefully as this is a CAP forum to begin with.

--When did I say I was dreaming of putting on a nifty uniform with lots of bling?  To clear things up, shorning, let me tell you this, and I wanna make sure you understand it reeeeeaaaaalllll well.  The reason I put on the Air Force style uniform is not because I think it is nifty, or blingy, or neato, or because I wanna look like the AF/army/marine corps/ whatever service....

It is because of this:  I respect the service that my grandfathers gave in our nation's defense in World War II, and Civil Air Patrol offers me a real way to serve my nation until I'm old enough to serve in the armed forces.  Pardon me for not being born earlier and pardon me for not waiting do serve in the military instead of actively serving my country through CAP.  So next time my squadron is out doing a search and rescue, or flying a mission, or working security, or whatever the case may be, I'll be sure to remember you, shorning, and how you're so much better than us because I'm just playing Air Force.

I forgot that us lowly CAP members are just mere wannabes with no real purpose and that you, shorning, are the supreme defender of our nation's country and that you do so alone and without any support whatsoever from civilian volunteers like those at CAP.  I forgot about that.  I forgot how you have the privelage to judge others who are here to discuss things, and how you can use your status as a member of the armed forces as a way to keep us riff-raff CAP members in line and in our place.

Reeeeeaaaallllll nice, shorning.  Next time I see an active duty member of the Air Force, I hope he isn't like you, because it's a pity to think that any Air Force member would try and place himself above others just because he thinks CAP's services serve no purpose and is just an organization for those who want to play military.  I hope not all of them are like you.

I thought those in the Air Force were supposed to have honor, integrity, and carry themselves in a way that gives honor to the entire armed services, I guess you're above that rule.  You do realize your comments are a discredit to the honor that the military upholds, right?  Because your comments come across as snobby, close-minded, and extremely arrogant.

All hail king shorning, supreme ruler and knowledgable one in anything and everything, supreme commander of everything Air Force, and supreme insult to the missions of Civil Air Patrol!

Don't get your panties in such a wad.

P.S.--Next time, I won't even dignify you with a response.  I decided to take a gander at some of your other postings by clicking on the link in your profile, and I can't find hardly a single positive posting on there.  Each time you open your mouth/type on the keyboard, you seem to be putting down other people's questions and opinions by either a) offering some rude comment on why they're so wrong, or b) instead of answering a question and providing them a link to the most relative manual that would have answered the question, you instead find it necessary to put them down with a simple "you coulda looked that up."  That's why people are here, to provide discourse and to get questions answered.  About 90% of all posts here could be answered with a glance at a manual, but people come here because it's a great resource.  Maybe you should try contributing to that.

[shorning]

All hail king shorning, supreme ruler and knowledgable one in anything and everything, supreme commander of everything Air Force, and supreme insult to the missions of Civil Air Patrol!

*sigh*  Feel better?  Quite frankly, snide comments and veiled insults from you don't mean much to me.  As the saying goes "attack the ideas, not the person".  There is no need to resort to ad hom attacks.  I'll let you vent your spleen if that make you feel better.

Honestly, you've jumped to some conclusions based on things you think I posted/said, but that I never did.  And instead of asking me questions to clarify my statements, you made several accusations that have no basis in truth. 

But since that was your last post, I suggest this issue is done, and we should get back on topic.

[flyguy06]

The high collar looks like the USMC uniforms

[CAP428]

These do look kinda star-trekky but they're not too bad, but I still wouldn't choose them if it were up to me.  I'm not entirely fond of the current service dress style but I would prefer the current style to these.  I would like to see a bit more uniformity amongst the branches, but with enough distinction to still hold each branch's own identity.  For now, though, I'm fine with the current service dress uniform.

[Hammer]

" air force".

One thing, and I don't mean t be an @$$, but it's Air Force.  Just an FYI the "A" and the "F" are capitolized.

[md132]

I pretty much don't care what kind of uniform the USAF goes to.  As long as it's functional and does what it needs.  Besides even if USAF goes to this new service dress doesn't mean we will be wearing it anytime soon.  An example is our current service coat.  Didn't it take some time before CAP was able to wear it?  I didn't particularly like the old service uniform because it does remind me of the Army uniform and I wear my Army Class A's a lot.  One good thing about the current coat is that it is lighter. 

I will wear what ever is prescribed.  So if my SDF goes to ACU's I will have to purchase them.  The Army Dress blues aren't what they are made to be though.  If I don't have to have them I won't get one.  Right now only Army Officer's and some SDF officers are required to have one.  It's optional for enlisted.  Thank goodness.  They are double the cost of Army Greens.  Not including the converstion kit for enlisted. 

IMHO, cadetnelson, the Army Dress blues may look nicer, but it is definately more uncomfortable.  If had a choice I would wear Army Greens instead of Dress Blues.  Also usually when term of "playing Air Force" is used it usually means CAP members WHO ARE NOT Military personnel using privilages they are NOT entitled (AAFES (Not including food courts, and MCSS, strolling for salutes, correcting airmen, privates, etc.  And I have seen many. 

[capchiro]

I have a silly question, looking at the proposed new jackets, would one wear a shirt under it and what kind?  collarless?  t-shirt?  Nehru style?  or does one never remove the jacket? 

[Becks]

I have a silly question, looking at the proposed new jackets, would one wear a shirt under it and what kind?  collarless?  t-shirt?  Nehru style?  or does one never remove the jacket? 

Heh well if the jacket is never to be removed I know what I'm wearing under it.


o yeah! 

[ZigZag911]

Current AF uniform is modelled on US Postal Service (I kid you not, so was Army green!)

You do know that the current Air Force service dress uniform and the current Army Class A's are totally different, right?  The Air Force service dress used to look like the Army's Class A's, but that hasn't been the case in more than a decade.

If you are referring to the 'change' in AF service dress during the 1990s, I have always thought that was a minor alteration....did not look all that different to me, semed mainly a change in the cloth material used.

If, however, there was a significant change in the Army green, no, I was not aware of that, thanks for pointing it out.

[ZigZag911]

.   I also did like getting rid of the nameplate.  Too bad that did not stick around.  We will have to wait and find out what is decided upon.

Perhaps it looked better without nameplate, but in a large organization such as USAF (or even CAP) it's helpful not to need to continually ask names or introduce oneself!

[shorning]

If you are referring to the 'change' in AF service dress during the 1990s, I have always thought that was a minor alteration....did not look all that different to me, semed mainly a change in the cloth material used.

Perhaps I didn't understand what you were driving at.  The material and the cut are the biggest changes to the current Air Force service coat.  Yes, somewhat unfortunately, it does look a little more like a business coat, but oddly that works for the Air Force some how.  I don't think anyone would consider it to be the same as the Army's Class A's though.  Perhaps the Navy's service coat, although single-breasted.  Having worn both versions of the Air Force's service dress, the current service coat is a much better choice.

[flyguy06]

  I didn't particularly like the old service uniform because it does remind me of the Army uniform

It's supposed to look like the Army Dress unifrom. remember, the USAF came out of the Army. Just like the Navy and Marines have a relationship and many of their uniforms have a similar design, the same hold true for the Army and Air Force. They have a relationship although they are two seperate services. I uderstand the MArines aepart of the Dept of the NAvy so please no boduy remind me of that. I am speaking more historical. The Air Force traces its heritage from the U.S. Army and so many uniform items are similar.

[CAP428]

Any particular reason why the two guys are wearing nametags but the lady isn't?

[Earhart1971]

If you can find some pictures of the uniforms worn by pilots and officers in WWI, you will see a strange resemblance, such as the collar, belt, coat length, etc.  Interesting..

There are other changes in the Wind, like moving the Air Force back under the Army, as the Army Air Corps.

CAP will become the CAF - Civil Air Force and we will be a seperate Service.

Hey, don't you just love Change!

[shorning]

Any particular reason why the two guys are wearing nametags but the lady isn't?

Testing different options.  The idea is to show serveral possible combinations to see what the Air Staff likes best.

[Hammer]

If you can find some pictures of the uniforms worn by pilots and officers in WWI, you will see a strange resemblance, such as the collar, belt, coat length, etc.  Interesting..

There are other changes in the Wind, like moving the Air Force back under the Army, as the Army Air Corps.

CAP will become the CAF - Civil Air Force and we will be a seperate Service.

Hey, don't you just love Change!

If you are serious, which I think you are, please post sources!  It isn't because I doubt you, it's just so I have something to be like "Why" when I'm reading it.

[ZigZag911]

If you are referring to the 'change' in AF service dress during the 1990s, I have always thought that was a minor alteration....did not look all that different to me, semed mainly a change in the cloth material used.

Perhaps I didn't understand what you were driving at.  The material and the cut are the biggest changes to the current Air Force service coat.  Yes, somewhat unfortunately, it does look a little more like a business coat, but oddly that works for the Air Force some how.  I don't think anyone would consider it to be the same as the Army's Class A's though.  Perhaps the Navy's service coat, although single-breasted.  Having worn both versions of the Air Force's service dress, the current service coat is a much better choice.

You are absolutely correct, it was the older version of USAF dress & Army green that were based on postal service.

I don't particularly care for the 'business suit' appearance of the current USAF uniform, but that is a matter of taste....and a moot point personally, since I use the gray/white out of necessity.

[Becks]

Could always go back to these, i think they look pretty spiffy:

[PhoenixRisen]

Could always go back to these, i think they looks pretty spiffy:

Woah, awesome!  Where'd you find that?

[BillB]

It's currently listed on eBay and bid up to over $500.00

[Becks]

yup, its a vintage WWII cap uniform on ebay, thought it was pretty cool

[arajca]

It is very cool.

off topic
Since National is looking to create specific training for aerial photo takers and ARCHER operators that may not be part of the Observer training; and the idea of an "Aircrew Badge" for non-pilot non-observer aircrew members has been brought up, how about using the old CAP wings as an Aircrew Badge with just one level? Make them shiney to match the current bling finish.

[MIKE]

off topic
Since National is looking to create specific training for aerial photo takers and ARCHER operators that may not be part of the Observer training; and the idea of an "Aircrew Badge" for non-pilot non-observer aircrew members has been brought up, how about using the old CAP wings as an Aircrew Badge with just one level? Make them shiney to match the current bling finish.

Nah... Just take the "O" off the Observer wings.

Edit:  On second thought, that would be Pilot wings wouldn't it.  Same wings, but instead of the prop have AC in the center.

[BillB]

The vintage WW II uniform is not correct. The red braid should have been removed the same time the red epaulets were removed. The charge in 1942 was to remove red epaulets and braid not just red epaulets. Either that or the uniform was a standard USAAF uniform with the red braid added. Many of the uniforms of the period with red epaulets were the standard USAAF uniform and members added the red epaulets and braid, changed the gold buttons for CAP silver and added the silver prop and wings and the C.A.P. cutouts. I had an estimate of $67 to change the standard epaulets and braid to red epaulets and braid on a uniform I was "reconstructing" just a month ago.

[jayleswo]

I think we have enough badges and wings as it is. ARCHER and SDIS should be separate ES ratings with their own SQTR, with qualified Mission Observer as a pre-req.

[AlphaSigOU]

I think we have enough badges and wings as it is. ARCHER and SDIS should be separate ES ratings with their own SQTR, with qualified Mission Observer as a pre-req.

To be fully qualified either in ARCHER or SDIS, minimum qual is MS. Our commander prefers MOs as ARCHER operators.