Why do we have so many uniform choices

[billford1]

If you look at an obese Senior in uniform be a little more thoughtful. To suggest he is a slob is unfair. Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain that is devastating to them personally. If you define a slob as someone who doesn't seem to care how they look that individual can be influenced by their Squadron Commander and their peers regarding what is required to be in uniform. I see lots of overweight folks in uniform and when I see quite a few of them I'm aware that the folks who do a most of the work and give up a lot of their time have shown up.  Many who wear a goatee do so for reasons of self esteem along with the fact that they are influenced by their spouse not to shave it off. If I'm not mistaken soldiers in Canada and some European countries also are permitted to wear beards. No gas masks and no ticks should make it not a big deal. You can't make gray hair go away as easily as you can make gray slacks go away.

[Slim]

If you look at an obese Senior in uniform be a little more thoughtful. To suggest he is a slob is unfair. Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain that is devastating to them personally. If you define a slob as someone who doesn't seem to care how they look that individual can be influenced by their Squadron Commander and their peers regarding what is required to be in uniform. I see lots of overweight folks in uniform and when I see quite a few of them I'm aware that the folks who do a most of the work and give up a lot of their time have shown up.  Many who wear a goatee do so for reasons of self esteem along with the fact that they are influenced by their spouse not to shave it off. If I'm not mistaken soldiers in Canada and some European countries also are permitted to wear beards. No gas masks and no ticks should make it not a big deal. You can't make gray hair go away as easily as you can make gray slacks go away.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[cap235629]

If you look at an obese Senior in uniform be a little more thoughtful. To suggest he is a slob is unfair. Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain that is devastating to them personally. If you define a slob as someone who doesn't seem to care how they look that individual can be influenced by their Squadron Commander and their peers regarding what is required to be in uniform. I see lots of overweight folks in uniform and when I see quite a few of them I'm aware that the folks who do a most of the work and give up a lot of their time have shown up.  Many who wear a goatee do so for reasons of self esteem along with the fact that they are influenced by their spouse not to shave it off. If I'm not mistaken soldiers in Canada and some European countries also are permitted to wear beards. No gas masks and no ticks should make it not a big deal. You can't make gray hair go away as easily as you can make gray slacks go away.

Or just might be a DISABLED VETERAN who's injuries sustained while ON ACTIVE DUTY are the underlying cause for such obesity.  I have intimate personal knowledge of one such individual  who has done everything he can think of to lose weight but is prohibited from exercise because of his injury.  The next option is weight loss surgery strictly for health reasons.

CAP was founded by folks who could not meet military standards or they would have been in the military.

We are not combatants.  Only a very small portion of our membership actually do Ground Team tasks.  Do I feel they need to be in shape? ABSOLUTELY.  However, those folks don't go anywhere unless there is an Incident command staff sitting on their duffs somewhere USING THEIR BRAINS!  Do I have to run an 8 minute mile to be an effective Incident Commander?  I say NO!

So this being the case, uniforms are necessary for those in this situation.

[Spike]

^  :clap:

I also would like to point out that the "arbitrary" weight standards the USAF implemented to keep CAP members out of AF style uniforms is criminal.  I see FAT (and I mean FAT, FAT, FAT) Airman and NCO's that if were members of CAP would be wearing the Corporate uniform. 

What do we tell the the guy who is 5'7'', and weighs 210?  We tell them "here is your polo shirt and grey pants".  Now what if this guy is not "over limits" because of FAT, but because of MUSCLE??  Is that at all fair?  He can't wear the AF style uniform, but can run further, march farther, and carry three people out of a burning aircraft by himself, while the AF NCO deploys weighing 250 pounds.  (AF.mil had an article a few months ago about an Airman who deployed as a "FATTY" and some how found the time to loose almost 100 pounds. 

It goes to how we perceive the standards.  Don't be so quick to judge those in Corporate wear.  The person you are critiquing most likely is a better person than you are.

The AF needs to lighten up it's standards for CAP, or at least enforce more strictly its own standards first.  (and yes, I know they "enforce standards", but flagging a guy from promoting until he drops 30 pounds is not enforcement.  Enforcement would be telling the guy he has 6 months to lose the weight or he will be discharged)

[JohnKachenmeister]

The current weight standards for CAP are indeed arbitrary.  They were designed with the idea that CAP members are too stupid to use a tape measure and simple math to calculate body fat.  Also, they stop at age 50.

Under the current CAP weight standards, I can weigh a maximum on-the-scale of 200 pounds, including the clothing allowance.  On active duty in the Army I weighed between 216-220 pounds, and PASSED the body-fat determination tests.  And that was when I was much younger!

What's wrong with this picture?

I have softened my attitude toward facial hair somewhat, but the CAP attitude of completely abandoning ALL grooming standards with the corporate white-and-grays and BBDU's is, in my humble opinion, counterproductive.  Well-groomed beards and slightly longer hair should be the rule, not looking like a gang of bikers or members of the Charles Manson family.

[RiverAux]

The current CAP weight standards haven't been changed since they were implemented in the early 1980s and represent a 10% allowance above what the USAF standards were at the time.  In a happy coincidence the CAP standards happen to be almost right on the boundary between Overweight and Obese using the modern-day BMI standards.

And anyone who thinks that CAP was formed so that people too fat to join the military might want to consider that the obesity rates of today are way, way, way higher than they were in the 1940s.  Take a look at photos of CAP members of the time and while you will probably find a few overweight folks, its nothing like today. 

[Ned]

Don't be so quick to judge those in Corporate wear.  The person you are critiquing most likely is a better person than you are.

I dunno about that.  I think it is more like 50-50.

I've noticed that only about 50% of CAP members are below average.

[Spike]

In a happy coincidence the CAP standards happen to be almost right on the boundary between Overweight and Obese using the modern-day BMI standards.

Relevance?  I am considered over my BMI "group", but not because of FAT.  I choose to work out to relieve stress and do something with friends. 

BMI is also arbitrary, in today's world.  How can they consider me to be "obese" when I have no protruding fat? (Everyone has fat, mine is just not as thick as others....I understand)

The AF style uniform restrictions regarding weight are stupid and silly.  However that is the rule we must follow, and I joined CAP for other reasons than wearing a AF Style Uniforms.

On the other side, a well groomed man or woman should not have to meet military restrictions regarding facial hair to wear CAP uniforms.  Like KACH said above, if you present a neat appearance with a beard or goatee, I have no problem with that.  Let them whatever they want.

 

[RiverAux]

Just pointing out that someone didn't pull the CAP standards out of a hat.  Is the 10% above the old AF weight limits any better than 9% or worse than 11%?  Hard to say, but since it approximates modern-day BMI standards which are generally accepted as weight management tools, then they are about as good as you're going to ever get.   

And don't go throwing out those muscle-man arguements.  I don't think I've ever met a CAP member who couldn't wear an AF-style uniform because of too much muscle mass.  In the military that certainly is a bigger issue, but I would feel confident in saying that 95% or more of the CAP members who don't meet the weight standards are just just fat due to their own actions and not due to various physical issues.   

The above might seem like we're straying from the thread topic, but the basic reason for why we have so many uniform choices comes down to weight and grooming. 

[Stonewall]

Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain...

Yes, some folks.  What's the percentage?

While obesity is predominantly associated with over eating or consuming otherwise unhealthy foods; the three main conditions which can cause obesity are hypothyroidism, Cushing's syndrome and depression.  My niece, a 911 dispatcher in Richmond, has one of the above conditions and weighs in at 300 lbs.  She's only in her late 20s.

But across the board, how many Americans are obese due to these "medical issues" versus reasons related to overeating, irregular meals or a lack of daily physical activity.  My guess is that obesity is caused by a medical condition in fewer than 10% of obesity cases in America.  If that's the case, then we need to get off our arses.  It ain't easy; I struggle with my weight because like many of us, I love to eat.  But since getting off of active duty in 1995 I've been going to a gym or working out in some fashion.  I lost the fight for a year between 98 & 99 when I battled depression and gained close to 40 lbs in a year.  After I realized the issue, I changed and lost that weight in about 6 months, the healthy way.

Yes, the fact is there are some obese people who can honestly say they are victims of a sickness that they can't do anything about.  What are we teaching cadets when we show up to SAREX's with donuts and coffee as snacks?  Or have "working nights" where we share 5 large "Meatapalooza" pizzas?  Maybe we should start a CAP version of Biggest Loser.

In the movie Super Size Me they compared smoking and obesity, and how it has become socially acceptable to heckle smokers. They asked when would it become socially acceptable to heckle fat people eating at McDonald's etc.

Sorry, off topic, but somewhat related to the CPU and the need for it.  Just a sensitive subject for me.

[ColonelJack]

I'm going to go along with Kirt on this one.  I spent the bulk of my adult life hovering between being obese, morbidly obese, and just plain stupidly obese -- and it was all my fault.  I love to eat too.

But last year -- my 50th birthday, on 26 Sep -- I decided enough was enough.  That day, I weighed 271 pounds.  (I stand 5 feet 8 inches tall.)  Today, seven months later, I weigh 171 pounds.  Yes, I lost 100 pounds in seven months, with a 1000-calorie-a-day diet and a bit more exercise than I had been doing.

I did it for a variety of reasons -- I want 50 more birthdays, I want to buy my clothing off the rack, etc.  But there's one more reason I did it.

This week, I'm sending in my paperwork.  After 12 years in retirement and after a long period of soul-searching to make sure my burnout was cured ... I am rejoining Civil Air Patrol.  My unit needs a Public Affiars Officer, and I fit the bill ... seems that my work in television and radio is something the unit can use.  The squadron CC says all I need is Level I, CPPT, and OPSEC, and I even get my rank back.

Yay me!! 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Jack

[jimmydeanno]

Off Topic, but Congratulations Jack!  :clap:

[Spike]

And don't go throwing out those muscle-man arguments.  I don't think I've ever met a CAP member who couldn't wear an AF-style uniform because of too much muscle mass.  In the military that certainly is a bigger issue, but I would feel confident in saying that 95% or more of the CAP members who don't meet the weight standards are just just fat due to their own actions and not due to various physical issues.   

Hmmm.......Where and when would you like to meet.  PM me!  I am a work out freak.

I have no problem wearing the Corporate variations, but just wanted everyone to know I don't like it, but will do it because of the rules.

I also wanted to get across that not all corporate uniform wearing members are "fat".  I really dislike that argument, and it seems like that is the first thing thrown out when discussing uniform options. 

Honestly, when the Military services start "booting" members for being fat, instead of "counseling them and flagging them", and when no Airman is over limits, then I say start enforcing weight and grooming standards on CAP. 

River.......just because you have never seen something doesn't mean it may not exist. 

[Hawk200]

Have to agree with UK on this, too.

The point of convient food as opposed to good food is something that we need to consider too. I'm guiilty of getting good deals on pizza to bring to meetings since I work at a pizza place. Not really seeing that as a positive thing anymore.

A few years ago, I started noticing that pants and such were fitting a little more snug. I was close around 190 (which at 5'10" isn't really all that bad), but didn't like the idea of getting any heavier. My weight loss plan was simple, watch portions (go for the six inch sub instead of the foot long), and walking at a brisk pace for four nights a week. No supplements or special foods. In four months went from 190 to 165. Felt better, clothes fit better, started looking better.

Will probably start that same routine when I get back. Gained a little, and just don't have any real energy. I'm realizing that fitness is part of a lifestyle, not just an occasional necesary evil.

I'm thinking that even though there might be a backlash, weight is probably the kind of thing that needs to be addressed. Maybe an occasional class on fitness and proper diet might not hurt.

If they start weigh-ins, I'll be first in line. May not like the results, but I'll own up to it. If we do so, cadets will follow suit. May take a while, but I figure it will happen.

All in all, it might not be a bad idea to start considering BMI in figuring out who might be able to still wear blues. It's kind of crazy to tell a guy with an Adonis-like build that he can't wear blues because he's "overweight". That flattering appearance is the kind of thing that should be encouraged, not penalized because of crazy numbers.

[Spike]

It's kind of crazy to tell a guy with an Adonis-like build that he can't wear blues because he's "overweight". That flattering appearance is the kind of thing that should be encouraged, not penalized because of crazy numbers.

I wouldn't say "Adonis" just thick, and not thick as in fat.  I would welcome the AF body fat measurement system.  I was "husky" as a kid.  Husky meaning I had to buy from the "fat kids" section at the department store.  In school I joined the wrestling team and ran track and stayed active in intramural sports in college.  I lost the body weight, and when I went to the military, my friends got me into lifting weights.     

I agree there are serious weight issues in our Country!  Physical fitness and eating properly need to be addressed...... however, it is harder to do than most "skinny" people think, who never had to spend one minute worrying about what they were eating or being singled out for being a fat kid.  I couldn't help I was a fat kid, that was environment. 

The only good thing about being fat is you will live longer when the food runs out when the swine flu scares all of us into sheltering in our basements and not going outside for fear of getting sick!

BTW.....the polo shirt is the most comfortable uniform option.  It is both stylish and business casual.  You can even get your name embroidered on it so everyone knows who you are!!

[Larry Mangum]

How many times are you guys going to beat that dead horse to death over uniforms and peoples appearance? We all know of people who should not be wearing the AF uniforms, but do, and until national cracks down on the regions and wings, nothing will change. 

Why not move on to more productive discussions of which there are many on this board.

[Spike]

Why not move on to more productive discussions of which there are many on this board.

Go start one then!

[es_g0d]

until national cracks down on the regions and wings, nothing will change.

Its not "National's" responsibility; its ALL of our responsibility.  If you like the status quo, you'll wait for "National."

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just pointing out that someone didn't pull the CAP standards out of a hat.  Is the 10% above the old AF weight limits any better than 9% or worse than 11%?  Hard to say, but since it approximates modern-day BMI standards which are generally accepted as weight management tools, then they are about as good as you're going to ever get.   

And don't go throwing out those muscle-man arguements.  I don't think I've ever met a CAP member who couldn't wear an AF-style uniform because of too much muscle mass.  In the military that certainly is a bigger issue, but I would feel confident in saying that 95% or more of the CAP members who don't meet the weight standards are just just fat due to their own actions and not due to various physical issues.   

The above might seem like we're straying from the thread topic, but the basic reason for why we have so many uniform choices comes down to weight and grooming.

Actually, "Pulling out of a hat" is pretty much what happened.

The AF back in the 80's laid a requirement on CAP that the fat guys NOT wear the AF uniform and wear the Corp. uniform instead. (The Corp. uniform already existed so the long-haired guys could stay).  Somebody on the NB decided that units could not do body fat determinations, and a basic standard allowance over USAF basic-training entry weights was set at 10 per cent.

[capchiro]

Just to disprove a myth, the Air Force does kick people out for being overweight.  My brother, a dental tech, was 15 pounds overweight.  They wrote him up and sent him to a psychologist.  The Air Force psychologist told him that if he was happy being 15 pounds overweight, it was his life.  Thereafter, he put no effort into losing the weight and they gave him a general discharge..  Now he is sorry..  But then again, little brothers can't ever do anything right.  JMHO..