Why do we have so many uniform choices

[AlphaSigOU]

And I wouldn't mind allowing the wear of neatly-trimmed facial hair on the CSU, if they got rid of the grays-on-whites.

[Gunner C]

I would.  Just shave and get a haircut.  It's simple.  If CAP isn't that important, then don't sweat it.   

[billford1]

Just shave and get a haircut is easy. For those of us who are neatly groomed with a goatee it's kind of trivial when we see the appearance of some who don't have facial hair and wear the CSU. I would define good grooming to not exclude facial hair, but rather present an otherwise neatly groomed appearance.

[Spike]

Just shave and get a haircut is easy. For those of us who are neatly groomed with a goatee it's kind of trivial when we see the appearance of some who don't have facial hair and wear the CSU. I would define good grooming to not exclude facial hair, but rather present an otherwise neatly groomed appearance.

:clap:

Facial hair is considered "bad" in the military because Gas Masks will not create a good seal against the face if hair is present. 

We don't have the issue of wearing gas masks in CAP, so I never understood the issue of having a neatly trimmed beard. 

It is a silly rule, only dictated to us by those in leadership who have no idea why the rule ever came into existence.

For people to say "just get a haircut or a shave" is shameful on their part.  We all deserve to groom ourselves in a way that makes us feel better about ourselves.  Some people don't brush their teeth.  Should we have a rule that says "unless you brush your teeth three times a day you can't wear AF style uniforms"?? 

[wuzafuzz]

Why do we have so many uniform choices?

Hmmm, maybe it's so the rampant unauthorized customizations won't stand out quite so much.   :angel:

[Gunner C]

Just shave and get a haircut is easy. For those of us who are neatly groomed with a goatee it's kind of trivial when we see the appearance of some who don't have facial hair and wear the CSU. I would define good grooming to not exclude facial hair, but rather present an otherwise neatly groomed appearance.

Like I said.  If your facial hair is more important than your service in CAP, so be it.  I wouldn't blame you at all - everyone needs to make their own decisions. 

Facial hair is considered "bad" in the military because Gas Masks will not create a good seal against the face if hair is present. 

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

Civilian norms changed, also.  A well groomed man became one who was clean shaven.  There are precious few in the elite levels of business who still have them (some exceptions like Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, very few).  In the military, beards and moustaches are looked down on - it's just not part of the culture.  If you want to fit in, you have to play the game.

[Spike]

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

hmm......a little research shows that straight razors were being mass produced in bulk by at least 1850.  I also have the Army Officers guide from 1903, which shows beards permissible.  It was not until the advent of Gas Warfare and the mask as a defense, when the military moved to shaving off beards.  Look at some historical photos on the net and you can probably deduce the time frame the "shaving reg" came out.  Also, it wasn't until the 1920's when beards went out of style.

Hygiene was not a forethought until after WW1. 

[Stonewall]

Facial hair is considered "bad" in the military because Gas Masks will not create a good seal against the face if hair is present.

Just some food for thought....all of these are US Military personnel:

[Spike]

^ Please don't pretend we are not educated.  Special Operations personnel operate "somewhat differently" than "regular forces".

[Rotorhead]

In my squadron, we are doing an experiement. The last two months we have all worn the blue service uniform. It has worked out great.

So you have NO overweight members or ones with facial hair? Must be a small squadron.

[Stonewall]

^ Please don't pretend we are not educated.  Special Operations personnel operate "somewhat differently" than "regular forces".

Relax, I was just goofin' around.  Not to mention there are gas masks these days that can be used with a beard and still provide a seal.

[PHall]

The Navy allowed facial hair in the late 60's through the early 80's.

[SarDragon]

The Navy allowed facial hair in the late 60's through the early 80's.

Actually, according to my research, beards were never specifically prohibited in the Navy until 1 Jan 1985. Prior to the "Zumwalt era", beards were permitted, but discouraged, and permission up the chain of command was required. They were primarily seen at sea, where uniform enforcement was not as strict.

There were two reasons they went away - the aforementioned sealing problems with protective equipment, and appearance issues among the 18-25 set. There were too many people that grew "beards" that consisted of several unconnected patches hair that looked terrible.

I lamented their passing, and promptly started growing mine back the day I left active duty.

[Gunner C]

^ Please don't pretend we are not educated.  Special Operations personnel operate "somewhat differently" than "regular forces".

Relax, I was just goofin' around.  Not to mention there are gas masks these days that can be used with a beard and still provide a seal.

Having been one of "those guys", our chain of command nearly threw up every time they saw us in relaxed grooming standards.  But, every time we had RGS, there was a reason for it.  BTW, I'm thinking the guy on the bottom picture isn't military.  No shirt is streng verbotten - foreigners usually don't look on that well.

[Gunner C]

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

hmm......a little research shows that straight razors were being mass produced in bulk by at least 1850.  I also have the Army Officers guide from 1903, which shows beards permissible.  It was not until the advent of Gas Warfare and the mask as a defense, when the military moved to shaving off beards.  Look at some historical photos on the net and you can probably deduce the time frame the "shaving reg" came out.  Also, it wasn't until the 1920's when beards went out of style.

Hygiene was not a forethought until after WW1.

Straight razors (also known as "cut throats" were the norm, but were notorious for being unpopular.  When Gillette brought safety razors to the US in the early 1900s, that's when beards began to disappear.  There are all sorts of things that were listed in the Army Officers' Guide, it doesn't mean that commanders allowed their officers or NCOs to have beards.  (When was the last time you saw a military officer with a moustache, sideburns, and hair all at the legal limits?)

BTW, soldiers were clean shaven before WW1.  Have you seen any beards on soldiers in the Mexico Expedition?  Panama Canal Contruction?  Cuban Expedition?  No gas in any of those places.  AAMOF, I don't believe it had been used at that point.

The absence of beards in the non-sea services has been in effect for over 100 years.  (BTW, the picture of the Rough Riders below reminds me of a CAP meeting. Talk about a variety of uniforms!) 

[Cecil DP]

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

hmm......a little research shows that straight razors were being mass produced in bulk by at least 1850.  I also have the Army Officers guide from 1903, which shows beards permissible.  It was not until the advent of Gas Warfare and the mask as a defense, when the military moved to shaving off beards.  Look at some historical photos on the net and you can probably deduce the time frame the "shaving reg" came out.  Also, it wasn't until the 1920's when beards went out of style.

Hygiene was not a forethought until after WW1.

Straight razors (also known as "cut throats" were the norm, but were notorious for being unpopular.  When Gillette brought safety razors to the US in the early 1900s, that's when beards began to disappear.  There are all sorts of things that were listed in the Army Officers' Guide, it doesn't mean that commanders allowed their officers or NCOs to have beards.  (When was the last time you saw a military officer with a moustache, sideburns, and hair all at the legal limits?)

BTW, soldiers were clean shaven before WW1.  Have you seen any beards on soldiers in the Mexico Expedition?  Panama Canal Contruction?  Cuban Expedition?  No gas in any of those places.  AAMOF, I don't believe it had been used at that point.

The absence of beards in the non-sea services has been in effect for over 100 years.  (BTW, the picture of the Rough Riders below reminds me of a CAP meeting. Talk about a variety of uniforms!) 

The drop in the use of mustaches and beards also coincides with the beginning of the recognition of just how bad fleas, ticks, and other creatures adversely affected the health of soldiers. In the field soldiers had a decided lack of hygeine, so they picked up a lot of hitchhikers. In most wars up until WWII, more people died of fever than ever died from combat. They also began vaccinating for everything at the same time.
To recap: No hair=no parasites=fewer soldiers dying or incapacitated from pestilence.

[O-Rex]

Hey there, don't go calling my favorite uniform a "Monstrosity."  You just have not learned to wear it right.

To properly wear the TPU, you have to wear it in a hotel cocktail lounge with a not-too-bright waitress.  (Look for blondes, they're your best bet!)

Then, fake a foreign accent, and tell her you are the Dictator-For-Life of a third-world banana republic, and tell her you will make her "Minister of Internal Beautification" or something.

You don't ever have to leave a tip, and usually she will spring for a few drinks just to hear you pick up the cell phone and order some dissidents to be executed.

Curses, I've been exposed!

Doom on you, Kach! 

[Hawk200]

The drop in the use of mustaches and beards also coincides with the beginning of the recognition of just how bad fleas, ticks, and other creatures adversely affected the health of soldiers. In the field soldiers had a decided lack of hygeine, so they picked up a lot of hitchhikers. In most wars up until WWII, more people died of fever than ever died from combat. They also began vaccinating for everything at the same time.
To recap: No hair=no parasites=fewer soldiers dying or incapacitated from pestilence.

And this is relevant to Civil Air Patrol members in what way? To say that CAP shouldn't have beards because soldiers of yesteryear had problems with infestations is idiotic. 

I agree that beards are not appropriate with our blues, but the CSU is a CAP "custom" uniform. Beards being forbidden with it is an arbitrary decision.

And the closeminded military concept that every man in the world needs to be clean shaven is blatantly prejudicial. It's the same mindset that causes junior (or just old timers that can't adapt) military members to have a facial tic when someone says "civilian". Ironically, it doesn't show the kind of tolerance that military members are supposed to have in the first place.

[Cecil DP]

The drop in the use of mustaches and beards also coincides with the beginning of the recognition of just how bad fleas, ticks, and other creatures adversely affected the health of soldiers. In the field soldiers had a decided lack of hygeine, so they picked up a lot of hitchhikers. In most wars up until WWII, more people died of fever than ever died from combat. They also began vaccinating for everything at the same time.
To recap: No hair=no parasites=fewer soldiers dying or incapacitated from pestilence.

And this is relevant to Civil Air Patrol members in what way? To say that CAP shouldn't have beards because soldiers of yesteryear had problems with infestations is idiotic. 

I agree that beards are not appropriate with our blues, but the CSU is a CAP "custom" uniform. Beards being forbidden with it is an arbitrary decision.

And the closeminded military concept that every man in the world needs to be clean shaven is blatantly prejudicial. It's the same mindset that causes junior (or just old timers that can't adapt) military members to have a facial tic when someone says "civilian". Ironically, it doesn't show the kind of tolerance that military members are supposed to have in the first place.

It goes  to refute the argument that the  reason for the the clean shave was to allow for the wear of gas masks. Personal hygiene and prevention of parasitic diseases is a far better rationalization of the shaving requirement than any other given in this forum in a historical context. As far as the wear of facial hair with the CSU, I never addressed it, and won't as I  retired from CAP in January.

[Pumbaa]

So being a fat slob is OK for the TPU, but not a neatly trimmed beard/ goatee???

Sorry, but when the blubber is flowing over the belt, and the shirt looks like crap.  I would say if you are going to allow a fatty, then a beard should not be an issue...