Honor Guard Uniforms: Split from Marketplace

[ThorntonOL]

Definately make sure the Honor guard has a pair of shoes dedicated to Honor Guard if they are going to put those clickers on. (That is a C folks!!! not a D!!!)

[BuckeyeDEJ]

As a side note, since the service coat was mentioned: No cadet may wear the officer coat -- they're not officers. They wear blue braid (not the checked officer braid) on their flight caps, and they wear the enlisted service coat.

That also makes the coats a bit less expensive, if you're buying new.

Cadets DO seem to prefer the old-style uniforms, because they think the old-style coats appear "more military." I have a feeling we'll be able to find the old coats for years and years to come (the USAFA still wears them, for instance).

[spaatzmom]

Sir, Can you show me and others where it states that cadets are prohibited from wearing the officer style service coat?  When attending many events all over the country, one can see cadets wearing them without any problems.  Many prefer the officer style as they glue the shirt epaulets to the underside of the cadet shoulder board and use the tabs on the coat to secure the boards.  Much neater, easier, and cleaner than trying to use velcro tabs which are a joke or safety pins.  When obtaining the jacket the only required alteration is the removal of the blue braid. 

The Honor Guard usually wear the service cap with a rear chin strap not flight caps.

Of utmost importance though is that the pants and jackets MUST be of the same cloth and color and all members MUST be in the same uniform either new or old style.  For the past several years, I have been attending the NHGA as a parent support person, not a CAP member and the dominant choice of jacket(over 600 cadets that I have seen go through the academy)has been new style for a few reasons.  Those attending are over 15 and with a few exceptions pretty much grown so the new jacket will still be usable when they transition to senior membership, more bang for the buck.  When trying to match color and fabric of pants the old style is difficult to find as opposed to the new style. 

Taps and cheaters are optional and take some practice in walking with them on slick surfaces.  The idea of separate shoes for HG duty is very good that way all are wearing the same shoe. 

One thing missing from the list was ascot with patch and gloves with rubber nubbies on them for better grip.

The USAFA cadets wear a modified version of the old style so it is not the same.  The next largest detachment of AFROTC is at Embry-Riddle and they wear officer new style.  Your generalizations about preferences are not holding up but may be somewhat correct for Group 8 in Florida where the majority of members rarely go beyond the county border.  Very few cadets or seniors attend things outside the group with the exception of 1 encampment so they can get their Mitchell. I know of only a handful in the last ten years that have gone to special acts, an NCSA, or even wing conference, and sadly that goes for the seniors too. 

[PHall]

As a side note, since the service coat was mentioned: No cadet may wear the officer coat -- they're not officers.

You got a reg cite for that?  Because you are very, very wrong.

Cadets can wear the "officers coat" with the epaulets, they just can not wear the blue "commissioning braid" on the sleeve.

And we are talking about the new style coats here.

[JayT]

As a side note, since the service coat was mentioned: No cadet may wear the officer coat -- they're not officers. They wear blue braid (not the checked officer braid) on their flight caps, and they wear the enlisted service coat.

That also makes the coats a bit less expensive, if you're buying new.

Cadets DO seem to prefer the old-style uniforms, because they think the old-style coats appear "more military." I have a feeling we'll be able to find the old coats for years and years to come (the USAFA still wears them, for instance).

Cadets may wear any style service coat.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Pylon, I know this got derailed, and I apologize for continuing down this path. I'm not sure where to say this otherwise, unless a mod is willing to edit at least one previous post in addition to this one.

Spaatzmom, please don't compare apples to oranges. AFROTC CAN wear the officer coat because it is an officer accession program. CAP and AFJROTC are not. Just as they wear enlisted flight caps, they *should* wear enlisted service coats. They are not officers, nor will they become one through those programs.

While CAPM 39-1 does not differentiate between officer and enlisted coats, the pictures of cadets in new service coats show enlisted coats. (Probably left a bit vague for supply reasons.)

THAT SAID, CAP HONOR GUARD MEMBERS, according to CAPM 39-1, can wear either coat, as long as they all match. So on that, I STAND CORRECTED.

I think what grinds my gears here is that I can't believe you tried to call out Florida Wing Group 8, the group in the most densely populated area of Florida (yes, denser than Miami-Dade). We just put a kid at USAFA and a couple of others in OA programs elsewhere. And Group 8 members DO participate in out-of-group activities (I know for a fact). Frankly, who do you think you are to take potshots?

[Pylon]

Split from the Marketplace thread.  Keep the discussion about the uniforms, regulations, options, etc. in here and posts in the Marketplace specific to the original posters needs.

[spaatzmom]

Pylon, I know this got derailed, and I apologize for continuing down this path. I'm not sure where to say this otherwise, unless a mod is willing to edit at least one previous post in addition to this one.

Spaatzmom, please don't compare apples to oranges. AFROTC CAN wear the officer coat because it is an officer accession program. CAP and AFJROTC are not. Just as they wear enlisted flight caps, they *should* wear enlisted service coats. They are not officers, nor will they become one through those programs.

While CAPM 39-1 does not differentiate between officer and enlisted coats, the pictures of cadets in new service coats show enlisted coats. (Probably left a bit vague for supply reasons.)

THAT SAID, CAP HONOR GUARD MEMBERS, according to CAPM 39-1, can wear either coat, as long as they all match. So on that, I STAND CORRECTED.

I think what grinds my gears here is that I can't believe you tried to call out Florida Wing Group 8, the group in the most densely populated area of Florida (yes, denser than Miami-Dade). We just put a kid at USAFA and a couple of others in OA programs elsewhere. And Group 8 members DO participate in out-of-group activities (I know for a fact). Frankly, who do you think you are to take potshots?

PM sent with my valid reasons.

[JayT]

Pylon, I know this got derailed, and I apologize for continuing down this path. I'm not sure where to say this otherwise, unless a mod is willing to edit at least one previous post in addition to this one.

Spaatzmom, please don't compare apples to oranges. AFROTC CAN wear the officer coat because it is an officer accession program. CAP and AFJROTC are not. Just as they wear enlisted flight caps, they *should* wear enlisted service coats. They are not officers, nor will they become one through those programs.

While CAPM 39-1 does not differentiate between officer and enlisted coats, the pictures of cadets in new service coats show enlisted coats. (Probably left a bit vague for supply reasons.)

THAT SAID, CAP HONOR GUARD MEMBERS, according to CAPM 39-1, can wear either coat, as long as they all match. So on that, I STAND CORRECTED.

I think what grinds my gears here is that I can't believe you tried to call out Florida Wing Group 8, the group in the most densely populated area of Florida (yes, denser than Miami-Dade). We just put a kid at USAFA and a couple of others in OA programs elsewhere. And Group 8 members DO participate in out-of-group activities (I know for a fact). Frankly, who do you think you are to take potshots?

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, 39-1 says that Cadets may wear any style, and not just for Honor Guardsmen.

Also, Cadet's can become officers..........Cadet Officers.............

[BuckeyeDEJ]

JThemann: But they're still cadets. No cadet is an officer. They are cadet officers if they're anything higher than a cadet chief master sergeant. A real officer has a commission or, in CAP's case, at least a butterbar and Level I. The uniform is emblematic of that status, or is supposed to be (I know, I know, this is CAP).

As a flight officer, you wear the officer coat out of necessity -- there's nowhere else to put your rank -- but you don't wear the braid, and you're not an officer, until you're a second louie. (WAIT: CAPM 39-1 defines "officer" to include flight officers, and says "officers wear braid." So someone who's not really an officer gets officer braid on hat and coat, or whoever at NHQ wrote the book didn't really take everything into consideration... in my 25 years in CAP, I can believe that....) Can anyone who remembers warrant officers in the Air Force enlighten this thread?

A further pause... CAPM 39-1 calls flight officers "officers," which directly violates CAPR 35-5:

Flight Officer Grades. Senior members who are ineligible for officer grade because of the minimum age criteria (21 years) may qualify for appointment or promotion to flight officer grades as outlined in section F.

By law, an officer has to be at least 21.

As you can tell, I just looked at the 39-1. Where does it say, other than in the honor guard section, that cadets can wear both? I haven't seen any verbage in the service-dress uniform area of the manual that specifies either way at all, just the implication made by photos of cadets wearing the enlisted coat. So the regulation is either deliberately or accidentally vague, just as it seems not to know really what to do with flight officers.

At that point, you go with the knowledge that officers have a separate coat, and that cadets aren't officers.

(Yeah, I guess I'm using your status as an example of where CAP hasn't spelled things out -- I have an FO in my unit, too. It's an awkward place to be sometimes.)

Spaatzmom: Got your message, and replied. Thanks, and hope to continue the dialogue.

[LtCol057]

Looking at the current 39-1 right now, at the bottom of the page in parentheses on page 17, just below Figure 2-2, it states (Cadets are authorized to wear both the old and new style service coats.)

[IceNine]

The difference in an officer coat and an enlisted coat is some blue piping around the cuff and epaulet sleeves, which are both VERY minor changes to that uniform.

You will also note that we have proven over the course of several hundred man hours of uniform postings and searches that 39-1 is absolute and unless it is explicitly authorized or forbidden then there is no leg to stand on when arguing about this regulation.

That being said all throughout this manual you will find mention of cadets being authorized to wear both the Old and new style service dress to include the service coat.  You will not find direction as to which version they are to wear.  So by the very nature of the broad authorization of service coats  they are authorized to wear which ever version they may choose.

Now, if 39-1 was to say cadets shall wear the service coat without epaulets then there would be a much different argument to be had.

As for the honor guard section the only reason they even mention epaulets or not is to make the point that it should match when possible, not to claim that no one else can wear the coat with epaulets.

[SarDragon]

Since I've not worn the AF style uniform in almost 20 yrs, I'm a little behind the power curve on uniform knowledge in that area. I'd like to ask a couple of Qs to get up to speed.

The CAPM 39-1 mentions old-style and new-style. This appears to refer to the actual cut and form of the coat - shade, buttons, lapels, etc. There is no mention of epaulets in that distinction.

Which style(s) come with epaulets? Which style(s) come without?

More discussion when I get an answer.

[davidsinn]

Which style(s) come with epaulets? Which style(s) come without?

Both and Both. (MALE) Old style has 4 pockets and a military cut. New style looks like a business suit. They are both available with and without epaulets. I try to encourage cadets to find them with so that they can more easily pin on C/Officer rank. I personally prefer the look of the old style but since I'm 24 I don't have that luxury.

[Pylon]

Since I've not worn the AF style uniform in almost 20 yrs, I'm a little behind the power curve on uniform knowledge in that area. I'd like to ask a couple of Qs to get up to speed.

The CAPM 39-1 mentions old-style and new-style. This appears to refer to the actual cut and form of the coat - shade, buttons, lapels, etc. There is no mention of epaulets in that distinction.

Which style(s) come with epaulets? Which style(s) come without?

More discussion when I get an answer.

"Old-style" Service Dress has the pockets with scalloped flaps, etc.  Only two coat options for all ranks, male or female -- enlisted wear the same coat as officers.  Addition of sleeve braid is the only distinction for officers

"New-style" service dress is the one born under AFCoS Gen McPeak, with the "streamlined design" and only one welt pocket on the breast - no breast pocket flaps.  There are two coats each in male and female versions.  Enlisted coats don't have epaulets sewn on the shoulders; they have bare shoulders.  The officers' version has epaulets and sleeve braid (though the braid is not attached when you buy it new).

CAPM 39-1 does specify which members may wear the new-style or old-style coats.  CAPM 39-1 does not specify, for members wearing the new-style coats, that certain members may only wear the officer or enlisted.  It's left up to the wearer.

[davidsinn]

"Old-style" Service Dress has the pockets with scalloped flaps, etc.  Only two coat options for all ranks, male or female -- enlisted wear the same coat as officers.  Addition of sleeve braid is the only distinction for officers

I stand corrected.

[afgeo4]

Cadet officers would HAVE TO wear the new Officer service coat. They can't attach cadet officer epaulets to the enlisted coat.

The "new" officer service coat is worn without black sleeve braids (which aren't on the coat when you purchase it). Cadet enlisted may wear either enlisted or officer service coat since nothing specifies which they can and cannot wear. 

[SJFedor]

Cadet officers would HAVE TO wear the new Officer service coat. They can't attach cadet officer epaulets to the enlisted coat.

The "new" officer service coat is worn without black sleeve braids (which aren't on the coat when you purchase it). Cadet enlisted may wear either enlisted or officer service coat since nothing specifies which they can and cannot wear. 

No. You can very easily attach the shoulder boards to the enlisted coat. In fact, it actually ends up looking a little cleaner, since they're a little more firmly attached to the jacket, and not floppy on the epaulet. BTDT.

As well, no service coat is worn with a black sleeve braid. We use a 1/2 inch dark/navy blue braid for company/field grade, 1 inch dark/navy blue braid for general officers.

[SJFedor]

A further pause... CAPM 39-1 calls flight officers "officers," which directly violates CAPR 35-5:

Flight Officer Grades. Senior members who are ineligible for officer grade because of the minimum age criteria (21 years) may qualify for appointment or promotion to flight officer grades as outlined in section F.

By law, an officer has to be at least 21.

Law? Where? Have you not seen the pages upon pages of discussion where people argue about this? There is no such law, as I've met quite a few 19 and 20 year old RM 2d Lts, Army, commissioned out of a JC.

Perhaps the word you were searching for was regulation

And, to prevent a thread derail on this one....
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1121.0

[JayT]

JThemann: But they're still cadets. No cadet is an officer. They are cadet officers if they're anything higher than a cadet chief master sergeant. A real officer has a commission or, in CAP's case, at least a butterbar and Level I. The uniform is emblematic of that status, or is supposed to be (I know, I know, this is CAP).

As a flight officer, you wear the officer coat out of necessity -- there's nowhere else to put your rank -- but you don't wear the braid, and you're not an officer, until you're a second louie. (WAIT: CAPM 39-1 defines "officer" to include flight officers, and says "officers wear braid." So someone who's not really an officer gets officer braid on hat and coat, or whoever at NHQ wrote the book didn't really take everything into consideration... in my 25 years in CAP, I can believe that....) Can anyone who remembers warrant officers in the Air Force enlighten this thread?

A further pause... CAPM 39-1 calls flight officers "officers," which directly violates CAPR 35-5:

Flight Officer Grades. Senior members who are ineligible for officer grade because of the minimum age criteria (21 years) may qualify for appointment or promotion to flight officer grades as outlined in section F.

By law, an officer has to be at least 21.

As you can tell, I just looked at the 39-1. Where does it say, other than in the honor guard section, that cadets can wear both? I haven't seen any verbage in the service-dress uniform area of the manual that specifies either way at all, just the implication made by photos of cadets wearing the enlisted coat. So the regulation is either deliberately or accidentally vague, just as it seems not to know really what to do with flight officers.

At that point, you go with the knowledge that officers have a separate coat, and that cadets aren't officers.

(Yeah, I guess I'm using your status as an example of where CAP hasn't spelled things out -- I have an FO in my unit, too. It's an awkward place to be sometimes.)

Spaatzmom: Got your message, and replied. Thanks, and hope to continue the dialogue.

No 'CAP Officer' holds a comission. Not a government comission, not a state comission, not even some sort of corporate comission. You're not really a 'CAP Officer' per say, unless you have some sort of super secret CAP comission that non of us have seen before ;-)

The fact is, is that you're no more of a 'CAP Officer' then I am, and I'm no more of a 'CAP Officer' then a Cadet Major. You and I are 'CAP Senior Members.'

While I won't argue with you if you can find me an example of National saying that Cadet's cannot wear service jackets with epaulettes, I cannot accept the arguement just because 'Cadet's aren't officers.'