Army ACUs as a CAP uniform

[blackrain]

I would like to know everyone's opinion on the use of Army ACUs as a uniform for the CAP. (Especially DNall and other Army types) Given that nearly everything is attached with velcro I don't see why we couldn't use the blue CAP tapes and rank etc...etc...on the ACU and just attach them with velcro. Actually we have a number of attached Air Force and Navy types over here who put their services insignia on the ACU. Here it is primarily so everyone looks the same in the field. (With snipers and such running around)

ACUs are lighter and cooler(temperature wise) too.

On side note to Dnall, has Texas floated away..........

[DC]

It makes sense to have everyone in the same uniform is a war zone, but I really don't see the point in having CAP, the Air Force Auxiliary, adopting an Army uniform over an Air Force one.

[Pylon]

The Army controls use of the ACUPAT.  The Air Force had to develop the ABU because the Army would not allow other branches to utilize the ACU.  I doubt CAP would get on its list of approved agencies.

Plus, CAP is working on ABU proposals at the national level.

[jacob]

I at one point passed on a suggestion (didn't go anywhere) to use ACUs to replace BBDUs when CAP transitions from BDUs to ACUs.  My reasoning is that DA and DoD civilians currently wear ACUs in certain situations and do not have to meet military grooming and weight standards to do so.

Ideally, I think it'd be great if we could get everyone in the same field uniform at least.  ACUs would look closer to ABUs than BBDUs and, having worn both, I like the ACUs a lot better and they hold up better (no faded blue pajamas look) after wear.  Whether the Army would let CAP wear ACUs with distinctive insignia (e.g. blue Velcro-on tapes and rank) is above my pay grade .

[MIKE]

For a CAP distinctive uniform the TRU in navy blue or OD makes some sense, as suggested by UK... but to wear an Army uniform when a similar Air Force uniform is available... And to wear a slightly different camo to skirt the AF smacks of the TPU debacle.

You wanna wear ACUs, join the ACA. *

* I take cash or checks NIN and COL Land.

[jacob]

Hadn't thought of using TRUs - I like that.  Same better-quality-than-BBDUs that using ACUs would give us, none of the using-the-Army's-uniform downsides.

ACA?  I think I missed a joke.

[MIKE]

ACA?  I think I missed a joke.

http://www.militarycadets.org/

"Now you know, and knowing is half the battle."

[Stonewall]

For a CAP distinctive uniform the TRU in navy blue or OD makes some sense, as suggested by UK...

This is what he's talking about here.

[Rotorhead]

I'd rather see CAP mandate the BBDUs. The ultramarine blue cutouts would looks better on them, and, unlike BDUs, they aren't intended to make you less visible.

Sure, it may be more fun to play RM in BDU's, but there is no real reason why CAP should wear camoflage of any type.

[lordmonar]

I've seen the ACU style uniform in OD, Tan, Black, Gray, ACU, and a weird brown/red cammo pattern, I wonder if TruSpec makes a blue version.

[MIKE]

I'd rather see CAP mandate the BBDUs.

Ewww...

I've seen the ACU style uniform in OD, Tan, Black, Gray, ACU, and a weird brown/red cammo pattern, I wonder if TruSpec makes a blue version.

It's called Multicam, and supposedly they have 'em in Midnight Navy.

[Slim]

I've seen the ACU style uniform in OD, Tan, Black, Gray, ACU, and a weird brown/red cammo pattern, I wonder if TruSpec makes a blue version.

Indeed they do.  I have a pair of the navy blue TRU pants that I wear to work.  They're essentially the same as the ACU pants; only difference is that the blue pants have a snap closure, zipper fly, the belt loops are styled differently, and there are fewer of them.

[jacob]

I've seen a number of uniform proposals on here (I was a lurker for a little bit before I registered).  Has there ever been an effort to get any of them approved?  E.g. something like having members from all over submit the same recommendation through their chain of command.  I know Lt Col White had a Uniform Committee thread back, I mean besides that.

I think Stonewall's proposal (looking at the support it got in its own thread) could be a candidate for such a campaign.  I like it a whole lot more than my idea of using ACUs.  What if it was modified so it only applies to seniors; since they can get free uniforms, cadets would stay in BDUs then transition to ABUs.

[citizensoldier]

The only real up side I can see to using ACU's is I own alot of them.

[Hawk200]

The Air Force had to develop the ABU because the Army would not allow other branches to utilize the ACU. 

Not quite, the ACU was actually worn by a number of airmen attached to Army units for a long while. Once the ABU was fielded, the Air Force forbid its wear. A few folks in the Army took it as a slight, but it hasn't really been an issue to those higher up in the Army. It's not even something to care about to them.

I'd rather see CAP mandate the BBDUs. The ultramarine blue cutouts would looks better on them, and, unlike BDUs, they aren't intended to make you less visible.

The ultramarine looks like crap on just about anything. Which is why a number of people here have suggested better alternatives.

Sure, it may be more fun to play RM in BDU's, but there is no real reason why CAP should wear camoflage of any type.

Since you're new here, a friendly heads up:

1. Not everyone joins CAP to "play" military. To assume it of every CAP member is insulting.

2. The "CAP doesn't need camo" argument has been explained  and fought over for the entire time this board has been available. Putting forth that statement is baiting people here. CAP wears it because the Air Force does. That's the reason. Whether or not we should have it is up to people a lot higher than us.

[CadetProgramGuy]

I still believe it will be late 2010 or even into 2011 before we get a decision.  With a mandatory date of 2013-2015

[O-Rex]

I still believe it will be late 2010 or even into 2011 before we get a decision.  With a mandatory date of 2013-2015

Its not a matter of 'if' but 'when.'

Mid 2010's sounds about right.....

Boots are going to be a PITA, because I haven't found any green ones for under $100, and I'm still waiting to find 'Far-East Knock-Offs' to no avail.

Perhaps there will be a discount supplier by the time we are allowed to wear the new costumes. . .

Question for you AF flyers out there: has USAF flightsuit-wear gone to tan T-shirts and green boots?  Seen pics of folks in the sandbox wearing them with the tan bags, but not stateside.  Our CAPRAPs still wear black T's and black boots.

[Rotorhead]

Since you're new here, a friendly heads up:

1. Not everyone joins CAP to "play" military. To assume it of every CAP member is insulting.

2. The "CAP doesn't need camo" argument has been explained  and fought over for the entire time this board has been available. Putting forth that statement is baiting people here. CAP wears it because the Air Force does. That's the reason. Whether or not we should have it is up to people a lot higher than us.

I may be new here, but I am NOT new to CAP.

1. I did not say I assume that of "every" CAP member. But plenty do feel that way; I've met enough of them over the years.

2. Given that there is an alternative to camo that CAP already authorizes, there's no reason to wear camo in the first place. We don't need to hide, we need to be more visible. The BBDUs would help accomplish that goal.

[BillB]

Getting BDUs for cadets is becoming a PITA. The surplus supply has dried up. Due to this, it may be the switchover date to ABUs could be moved up. New cadets can't find BDUs from the usual surplus sources. University AFROTC detachments used to be a source, but even they are having problems with BDUs and ABUs.

[DC]

Since you're new here, a friendly heads up:

1. Not everyone joins CAP to "play" military. To assume it of every CAP member is insulting.

2. The "CAP doesn't need camo" argument has been explained  and fought over for the entire time this board has been available. Putting forth that statement is baiting people here. CAP wears it because the Air Force does. That's the reason. Whether or not we should have it is up to people a lot higher than us.

I may be new here, but I am NOT new to CAP.

1. I did not say I assume that of "every" CAP member. But plenty do feel that way; I've met enough of them over the years.

2. Given that there is an alternative to camo that CAP already authorizes, there's no reason to wear camo in the first place. We don't need to hide, we need to be more visible. The BBDUs would help accomplish that goal.

Its not like the difference in visibility is comparable to day-glo orange and black, Navy (read: dark) blue and Woodland Camo aren't much different on a scale of darkness. The orange reflective vest you are supposed to wear makes this argument totally irrelevant. CAP wears the Air Force uniform because of our ties to the Air Force. Personally I want to see that bond strengthened, not weakened. Getting rid of USAF uniforms is not going to acomplish that. Also, if you approach someone on a mission, having a military uniform on goes a long way toward your credibility.

[0]

This discussion has got me to wodern, how is Col White and his team coming with the New M39-1? 

[BigMojo]

I have seen no difference in the way "I'm treated" because of the BBDU. I have and wear both. In fact on a recent REDCAP, the media came up to me first and not my teammate, a Capt wearing BDU's.

The pattern has nothing to do with "approachability" or credibility. Actually, IMHO, the BDU may lead to less credibility...the public is not dumb. They see the Real Military(C) on the television every night, and no longer see the BDU, thus making us look a bit like posers.

Flame away, but I like the BBDU's or KBU Idea from a couple months ago. I'm not holding my breath for the ABU.

[citizensoldier]

I have seen no difference in the way "I'm treated" because of the BBDU. I have and wear both. In fact on a recent REDCAP, the media came up to me first and not my teammate, a Capt wearing BDU's.

The pattern has nothing to do with "approachability" or credibility. Actually, IMHO, the BDU may lead to less credibility...the public is not dumb. They see the Real Military(C) on the television every night, and no longer see the BDU, thus making us look a bit like posers.

Flame away, but I like the BBDU's or KBU Idea from a couple months ago. I'm not holding my breath for the ABU.

The uniform is less important than the actions of those who wear it.  For all intents and purposes my old Pickle Suit from the 80's would still do me fine if it still fit.  I have worn BDU, DCU, and ACU.  Actions and competence say more than appearance ever will.

CS

[jimmydeanno]

The uniform is less important than the actions of those who wear it.  For all intents and purposes my old Pickle Suit from the 80's would still do me fine if it still fit.  I have worn BDU, DCU, and ACU.  Actions and competence say more than appearance ever will.

[sarcasm]Your competence level increased as the uniform changed, post hoc ergo propter hoc, the uniform can be attributed to your competence level[/sarcasm] 

[citizensoldier]

The uniform is less important than the actions of those who wear it.  For all intents and purposes my old Pickle Suit from the 80's would still do me fine if it still fit.  I have worn BDU, DCU, and ACU.  Actions and competence say more than appearance ever will.

[sarcasm]Your competence level increased as the uniform changed, post hoc ergo propter hoc, the uniform can be attributed to your competence level[/sarcasm] 

I just tend to observe actions and focus a bit less on what is said.  The uniform IS important but the credibility of the wearer is in the end more established by what is done while wearing it. 

[jacob]

A note on the sage (green) boots with the ABU: the desert tan boots (same as are worn with the ACU) are authorized for wear by the Air Force as well, and cheaper.  I have no information as to whether CAP is planning on allowing them as well.

[desertengineer1]

A note on the sage (green) boots with the ABU: the desert tan boots (same as are worn with the ACU) are authorized for wear by the Air Force as well, and cheaper.  I have no information as to whether CAP is planning on allowing them as well.

This is a good segway for me.  I think we're going to have goobs of BDU's come our way like the greens did in 1989.  There will be a huge pulse as people move to ABU's. 

You can still obtain BDU's from AAFES, and they can still order them for you if you speak to the manager on duty at the CSS.

My concern is with the boots, so my question to NHQ is this - Can you guys consider a change to allow us wear of the Green boots for now?  THAT supply is pretty much dried up.  Active duty aircrew here are being allowed to wear them with the flightsuit currently due to the shortage.

I think BDU's will be around for a while, but high abuse items like caps and boots are not.

[O-Rex]

A note on the sage (green) boots with the ABU: the desert tan boots (same as are worn with the ACU) are authorized for wear by the Air Force as well, and cheaper.  I have no information as to whether CAP is planning on allowing them as well.

Desert Tan Boots are an interim-thing until manufacturers spool-up an adequate supply of green ones. . .

Chances are that once we are auth'd to wear ABU's, there will be sufficient stocks of green boots.

I've seen alot of back & forth on this thread: funny, but if CAPTALK had been around 15-20 years ago, I daresay we would have seen the same comments about the transition from pickle-suits to BDU's.

Bear in mind that there is NO difference in functionality: you still have a four-pocket shirt and pants with cargo pockets.  The rest is just window-dressing....

Back to the ACU: I'm not hearing rave reviews from old-timers who remember when a set of BDU's worn regularly lasted a couple of years,  I hear that ACU's wear out relatively quickly.

I grew up with the BDU, from it's inception in 81-82, and remember the 'disco-collars," the side-tabs, and a few other bumps along the way.  I'll miss the BDU when it passes into history.

Patience my fashionistas: we'll get our shot in a few years, and I'm sure that many of your current BDU's, boots and accessories have plenty of mileage left in them: enjoy it!

[JayT]

Wow, this discussion was really productive.

Doesn't the term "Army Combat Uniform" give you at least two reasons that CAP would never, ever wear it?

[DNall]

For a CAP distinctive uniform the TRU in navy blue or OD makes some sense, as suggested by UK... but to wear an Army uniform when a similar Air Force uniform is available... And to wear a slightly different camo to skirt the AF smacks of the TPU debacle.

I would echo that. CAP is absolutely moving to ABUs in place of BDUs. That is unquestioned. CAP will always wear the same dress, flight, and utility uniforms as the AF (w/ CAP distinctive items per AFI & Air Staff approval). CAP does not have the option to do otherwise, nor would it serve our organization to create any more distance between us & regular airmen.

To the extent that makes us less than uniformed because members who do not meet ht/wt or grooming standards may not wear those items, per AFI. You have two choices. You can either exclude those individuals from membership and mandate AF-style uniforms (which ain't gonna happen), or you can suck it up & live with it. In the process of sucking it up, if you want to make the alternative uniforms not look like crap, that would be nice.

In my personal opinion...

1) The BBDUs look okay. OD would be fine in place of those, but there's no reason to change at this point.

2) ACUs are not an option for the many reasons stated, and I would not support it because it's harmful to the AF relationship that we depend on for survival, and would not be helpful in relations with guard & Army Reserve components that we need to have a good relationship with in our disaster response roles at the least.

3) I think it was absolutely retarded for each branch of service to develop dif camo patterns, and especially dif boots. That's the biggest travesty to tax-dollars I've seen in a military program, and there's a lot.

4) The Army plans to alter ACUs in the future, and eventually to move away from them. The velcro will be going away in the short term. In the longer term the pattern will be changed to something else. Most people are hoping for multi-cam, in woodland & desert patterns. The whole idea of ACUs was a short term uniform that would shrink the supply chain by only having to manage/issue one uniform pattern during this wartime period. The camo sucks for both woodland & desert enviros, as do many other aspects of the uniform in general. It will go away after we recover from this period of war, but that's not the top priority right now.

5) Velcro sucks. I won't bother with the tactical reasons since those don't apply. It's supposed to be cheaper since you only need one set of tapes/patches for 5 sets of uniforms. However, each tape/patch costs three to four times as much. And, they get lost. They fall off, stick to your buddy when you brush shoulders, or just get lost when you pull them off to wash the thing. It ends up costing soldiers - vanguard would be happy. Also, the velcro wears out with use. After a few mos to a year, it's shredded & doesn't stick any more. At that point you have to replace it or the uniform. Generally our uniforms are worn out by then & we don't bother replacing the velcro, but that would be a lot of sewing & maint for CAP members.

6) Also, I don't know about ABUs, but ACUs fade real bad over time, even when washed correctly, much worse than BDUs. The Army you can get away with field looking uniforms to a greater degree than the prim & proper AF that only wears those things to the office. It's not a good idea for CAP.

7) And just quickly on the visibility issue. BDUs/ACUs/ABUs/etc are not really very effective in hiding anyone. Very marginally at best, and BDUs are better at it than the newer stuff. The uniform is worn by ground combat troops, and does have a camo pattern for that reason, but it is not really a combat uniform (despite the names). It is actually a general utility uniform worn for all tasks where the service uniform (blues) would not be appropriate, and/or to create psychological solidarity to the troops downrange whom the CONUS troop is supporting. Likewise, it is worn by CAP as a general utility uniform for both circumstances where blues are not appropriate, AND to create solidarity with the airmen we are supporting so they can accomplish their tasks here & overseas. If you don't want to support our troops overseas, you're in the wrong org, and if you forget that's why CAP exists, then that's part of why we're wearing AF-style uniforms.

[blackrain]

Wow.....Great discussion. DNall I completely agree that it is an absolute waste of taxpayer money to have different pattern uniforms for each service. I have had the same discussion with friends in other services many times with pretty much universal agreement.

I hate velcro too. For both tactical and durability issues. I actually miss having everything sewn on.

The plus for the ACU I saw was availability and the ability to switch from Army use to CAP use just by changing the insignia.

Velcro or not...sew on or not......consistent types/patterns for uniforms AND for boots among services would be the best way to go IMHO.

[O-Rex]

Wow.....Great discussion. DNall I completely agree that it is an absolute waste of taxpayer money to have different pattern uniforms for each service. I have had the same discussion with friends in other services many times with pretty much universal agreement.

I hate velcro too. For both tactical and durability issues. I actually miss having everything sewn on.

The plus for the ACU I saw was availability and the ability to switch from Army use to CAP use just by changing the insignia.

Velcro or not...sew on or not......consistent types/patterns for uniforms AND for boots among services would be the best way to go IMHO.

1968: Each service has it's own style of fatigue uniform and boot, SecDef MacNamara says 'stop the insanity' and mandates one fatigue uniform and one boot for all. . . .

2008: DoD is a fashion free-for-all: waiting for DoD leadership to get it's collective head out if it's "fourth point of contact."

Velcro is a good Idea for unit patches: sew-on is a PITA when you PCS, but for rank, nametapes and branch?  First of all, the Army is the only service using the ACU, so why can't the uniform come with the 'U.S. Army' already sewn on?  Bring back sew-on specialty badges.  I don't understand the idea of subdued current pin-on badges for garrison-wear only: nowadays if you are not in garrison, you are wearing a vest of some sort  (flight, OTV, whatever) and nobody is going to see your blingage anyway so what's the big deal?  Velcro rank should be at the discretion of the wearer, like pin-on/sew on rank was for BDU's: velcro makes sense for trainees, particularly ROTC/USMA Cadets, and the like, but once you become an NCO or CPT and above, your ACU's will probably wear out before you are promoted.

I think the Army came up with the most practical uniform for combat-use: it was actually designed for soldiers by soldiers, but I think they banged it up with all the trimmings.  Just keep it simple. . .

A2CU's for flight crews: anybody know how those are working out?

ACU's for CAP? Ain't gonna happen: period

Off-subject, but did anyone see the reader backlash on the white Class B shirt in the Army Times?

[Sleepwalker]

  I hope we transition to the new Air Force ABUs as soon as we can!  My reason is that I see people on the streets all the time now wearing different parts of BDUS.  They are used by many people as "dirty jobs" work clothes.  I don't feel the BDUs hold the respect they once did because of it.  This past weekend I saw a Boy Scout Leader with the regular BS tan shirt and accompanyments while wearing BDU pants!  It looked rather rediculous, but it made me feel very self-conscious in my BDU uniform.  (This is just how I feel, and has no real 'intellectual' value to this thread).         

[JayT]

  I hope we transition to the new Air Force ABUs as soon as we can!  My reason is that I see people on the streets all the time now wearing different parts of BDUS.  They are used by many people as "dirty jobs" work clothes.  I don't feel the BDUs hold the respect they once did because of it.  This past weekend I saw a Boy Scout Leader with the regular BS tan shirt and accompanyments while wearing BDU pants!  It looked rather rediculous, but it made me feel very self-conscious in my BDU uniform.  (This is just how I feel, and has no real 'intellectual' value to this thread).         

Why do you care what 'respect' you're uniform has?

[notaNCO forever]

 It probably isn't going to take long for people to start wearing ACU's and BDU's for work cothes so thats not much of a reason. I do agree that BDU's have lost respect do to there misuse. On the discusion of CAP in ACU's there is really no reason for it we are the Airforce not Army auxiliary.

[davidsinn]

I used to paintball in ACU.

[DNall]

A2CUs are great. Covered in another thread somewhere, try the search button.

I used to paintball in ACU.

We did that at training. It stains.

[davidsinn]

A2CUs are great. Covered in another thread somewhere, try the search button.

I used to paintball in ACU.

We did that at training. It stains.

I wasn't worried about that. Believe it or not it was actually the best camo pattern for my preferred fields and that's why I got it.

[citizensoldier]

If all we are talking is our preference in uniforms, it would be my DCU's with the bottom pockets up on the arms.  For CAP purposes I am good to go in BDU's.  I am just glad I did not throw them out when they hit the Army wear out date.

[citizensoldier]

For a CAP distinctive uniform the TRU in navy blue or OD makes some sense, as suggested by UK...

This is what he's talking about here.

The more I think about this uniform set up, the more I like it.  I liked my OD fatigues in the 80's.  This would bring that look up to date.  Ah well won't happen.

[DNall]

ABUs will be here before you know it. Just be patient.

[afgeo4]

Let's face it, the best uniforms were developed by the Marine Corps. The fabric is great, wear and tear is great, camouflage patterns work for both environments, pockets are well placed, the boots are a good color. Everything works except for the Globe & Anchor.

Now I get it, the DoD didn't have the guts to say "NO! We're going to allow ALL of our service members to get the best in field uniforms" when the MARPAT was developed, but let's just hope they'll have enough guts to say it soon. I vote for ALL services to transition to woodland and desert MARPAT uniforms and change the name to USPAT. Marines/Navy could keep the 8 point hat to be "different".

[DNall]

^ too late for that. It'd cost more money to change now than drive on with each service having their own pattern.

In another 10 years, we'll be out of this wartime cycle & things moving back to reality. The general understanding is we'll again go to a common utility uniform at that point. The popular choice at this point is multicam in woodland pattern - with desert & arctic versions avail as needed.

[Dragoon]

Let's face it, the best uniforms were developed by the Marine Corps. The fabric is great, wear and tear is great, camouflage patterns work for both environments, pockets are well placed, the boots are a good color. Everything works except for the Globe & Anchor.

Now I get it, the DoD didn't have the guts to say "NO! We're going to allow ALL of our service members to get the best in field uniforms" when the MARPAT was developed, but let's just hope they'll have enough guts to say it soon. I vote for ALL services to transition to woodland and desert MARPAT uniforms and change the name to USPAT. Marines/Navy could keep the 8 point hat to be "different".

Can't do it.  After designing a camo opattern that they claim would save live, they then went off and patented it.  And the pattern has the eagle, globe and anchor integrated into it.  So no one can use it but them.

In other words, they invented something that by their own admission could help soldiers, sailors and airmen, and then turned around and denied them its use.

I just loooove inter-service rivalry.

[Hawk200]

Let's face it, the best uniforms were developed by the Marine Corps. The fabric is great, wear and tear is great, camouflage patterns work for both environments, pockets are well placed, the boots are a good color. Everything works except for the Globe & Anchor.

Now I get it, the DoD didn't have the guts to say "NO! We're going to allow ALL of our service members to get the best in field uniforms" when the MARPAT was developed, but let's just hope they'll have enough guts to say it soon. I vote for ALL services to transition to woodland and desert MARPAT uniforms and change the name to USPAT. Marines/Navy could keep the 8 point hat to be "different".

Can't do it.  After designing a camo opattern that they claim would save live, they then went off and patented it.  And the pattern has the eagle, globe and anchor integrated into it.  So no one can use it but them.

In other words, they invented something that by their own admission could help soldiers, sailors and airmen, and then turned around and denied them its use.

I just loooove inter-service rivalry.

The MARPAT pattern was offered to the Army to use, but the Army declined as they were working on their own uniform design. Everybody could have been in the same camo, but with the Army doing their own thing, everyone else followed suit.

Each branch decides what their own truth is when it comes to uniforms, even if it looks to be purple horse crap to the rest of us. The Air Force put out to the press that flightsuits would remain the sage green that they have been, because "Nomex cannot be dyed with a camouflage pattern in a practical manner".

The Army decided to go with a white shirt. We've seen the opinions on that one.

The Navy decided to look like pseudo-Marines. 

Everyone is doing their own thing. Where do you think HWSNBN got the idea in the first place?

[ol'fido]

Who is selling the OD acu patterned shirts shown in the pictures?

[JayT]

Who is selling the OD acu patterned shirts shown in the pictures?

Propper.

[MIKE]

Who is selling the OD acu patterned shirts shown in the pictures?

Propper.

Looks like they have their own version now called the TAC U, but I'm pretty sure UKs is the TRU by Tru-Spec.

[ol'fido]

Thanks. I want one! Now imagine sounds of maniacal laughter and hands rubbing together.

[Cecil DP]

Let's face it, the best uniforms were developed by the Marine Corps. The fabric is great, wear and tear is great, camouflage patterns work for both environments, pockets are well placed, the boots are a good color. Everything works except for the Globe & Anchor.

Now I get it, the DoD didn't have the guts to say "NO! We're going to allow ALL of our service members to get the best in field uniforms" when the MARPAT was developed, but let's just hope they'll have enough guts to say it soon. I vote for ALL services to transition to woodland and desert MARPAT uniforms and change the name to USPAT. Marines/Navy could keep the 8 point hat to be "different".

Can't do it.  After designing a camo opattern that they claim would save live, they then went off and patented it.  And the pattern has the eagle, globe and anchor integrated into it.  So no one can use it but them.

In other words, they invented something that by their own admission could help soldiers, sailors and airmen, and then turned around and denied them its use.

I just loooove inter-service rivalry.

The MARPAT pattern was offered to the Army to use, but the Army declined as they were working on their own uniform design. Everybody could have been in the same camo, but with the Army doing their own thing, everyone else followed suit.

Each branch decides what their own truth is when it comes to uniforms, even if it looks to be purple horse crap to the rest of us. The Air Force put out to the press that flightsuits would remain the sage green that they have been, because "Nomex cannot be dyed with a camouflage pattern in a practical manner".

The Army decided to go with a white shirt. We've seen the opinions on that one.

The Navy decided to look like pseudo-Marines. 

Everyone is doing their own thing. Where do you think HWSNBN got the idea in the first place?

In this era of Joint Operations you would believe that everyone would be wearing the same utility uniform. Instead the DoD is wasting millions of dollars creating 4 different styles. In addition uniform stores at Joint Command bases now have to have 4 times the storage capacity for all the different uniforms.

[DNall]

Yeah, it's absolutely insane, but too late now. It'd cost more to standardize now than ride this out for the next decade & then standardize. It is what it is, close ranks & move on.

[KyCAP]

Dear Mr. CAP-USAF Uniform person:

Hint Hint.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6217.0

Got Milk?

[DNall]

Dear Mr. CAP-USAF Uniform person:

Hint Hint.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6217.0

Got Milk?

I'm sure there's not a "CAP-USAF uniform person," but what's your point? Another year and you'll probably be in ABUs that look quite similar to the AF.

[KyCAP]

Seems like a lot of hum drum over getting our uniforms updated for the ABU ACU while other branches programs have moved on with great ease without crazy colored name tapes.

[CAPLAW]

Solution....... If you want to wear ACU'S join the Army.   :clap: :clap:Why would CAP even try to adopt the Army Uniform?

[KyCAP]

Typo .. adjusted.

I was trying to be subtle and point out that CAP and USAF are hashing out the adoption of the ABU while the Army Cadet program has had the Army blessing to adopt the ACU faster than we can shake a stick.   Seems like process and bureaucracy has stifled the progress at this point for what appears to be little or no reason when compared to peering programs.

To pinpoint this from my perspective even in the "designs" posted in other threads here and our current uniform we have blazen colors to make us "distinct" from our USAF bretheren.   Apparently, the Army doesn't see a problem with having their programs be able to procure a uniform that is more or less available from US Calvary or any other supplier of gear.   If you look closely at the pic from COL Land even the name tape is ACU...   I am just pointing this out as my "attempt" to bring it to the attention of those I know lurk on this board on the CAP Uniform Committee that precedent has been set for CAP to be able to acquire the ABU down to the name tape and not be stuck trying to source this from one place for what ever reason.

So much for being subtle.

I also vote for a "Uniform Reduction Act" if there is such a thing.  Let's start cutting back on the number of uniform variations in CAP to some level of trying to be "Uniform" (hashed out in other threads).  Like a 50% reduction would be a good start.   

[CAPLAW]

Good point.  I would just like to see CAP use olive drab BDU'S.

[PHall]

Typo .. adjusted.

I was trying to be subtle and point out that CAP and USAF are hashing out the adoption of the ABU while the Army Cadet program has had the Army blessing to adopt the ACU faster than we can shake a stick.   Seems like process and bureaucracy has stifled the progress at this point for what appears to be little or no reason when compared to peering programs.

Big difference in the programs.

The ACA is a "pure" cadet program. The care and training of cadets is what they do.
They have a minimal number of adults in their program and they do enforce the Army weight and grooming standards.

CAP has multiple "missions" with the  cadet program being just one part of the organization.

We have more adults then we have cadets. Many do not meet the Air Force weight and grooming standards and unless they're wearing the "Air Force" style uniform, they don't have to.
And we seem to have a real problem enforcing the weight and grooming standards too.

Yes, we will probably transition to the ABU, for cadets at least. But I would not be surprised in the least if seniors were barred from wearing the Air Force style uniforms in the future just because of our demonstrated history of noncompliance with the uniform regs.

[KyCAP]

How about applying the converse to that logic?   One could also argue that the CLOSER the CAP uniform is to the USAF uniform ABU then the LESS likely folks would be to wear it that are outside of the weight and grooming standards because it WOULD be policed more closely?   Personally, let's set the standard higher for the USAF uniforms, not wider (tongue in cheek) to give us an OUT by wearing ultramarine name tapes.   

I have NEVER seen anyone in a Green NOMEX flight suit with a beard or overweight.

[RiverAux]

I was trying to be subtle and point out that CAP and USAF are hashing out the adoption of the ABU while the Army Cadet program has had the Army blessing to adopt the ACU faster than we can shake a stick.

Just because someone is wearing a uniform does not necessarily mean that they have been authorized to wear it. 

If CAP was not the Air Force auxiliary we could wear the BDUs we have right now without asking permission from anyone in the military.  And we could switch to ABUs right now with the name tags as well.  Since the ACA isn't actually formally affilitiated with the Army, they can get away with a lot more.  Should the time come when they are actually an Army program, things will change for them. 

[JayT]

How about applying the converse to that logic?   One could also argue that the CLOSER the CAP uniform is to the USAF uniform ABU then the LESS likely folks would be to wear it that are outside of the weight and grooming standards because it WOULD be policed more closely?   Personally, let's set the standard higher for the USAF uniforms, not wider (tongue in cheek) to give us an OUT by wearing ultramarine name tapes.   

I have NEVER seen anyone in a Green NOMEX flight suit with a beard or overweight.

I have. Plently.

[PHall]

I have NEVER seen anyone in a Green NOMEX flight suit with a beard or overweight.

Been to many search bases?  I can't ever remember even one mission, actual or exercise, where we didn't have at least one member wearing the Green Bag who didn't meet the weight and grooming standards.

And the vast majority of the offenders are members who have been in CAP for more then 3 years.
So it's not like they were brand new and didn't know or anything.

[DNall]

I was trying to be subtle and point out that CAP and USAF are hashing out the adoption of the ABU while the Army Cadet program has had the Army blessing to adopt the ACU faster than we can shake a stick.

Just because someone is wearing a uniform does not necessarily mean that they have been authorized to wear it. 

If CAP was not the Air Force auxiliary we could wear the BDUs we have right now without asking permission from anyone in the military.  And we could switch to ABUs right now with the name tags as well.  Since the ACA isn't actually formally affilitiated with the Army, they can get away with a lot more.  Should the time come when they are actually an Army program, things will change for them. 

This is absolutely 100% correct. USAC wears ACUs cause they just decided they would, and that includes all the insignia/tapes/etc. They did not seek authorization from the Army to wear them, nor does Army have any say in what distinguishing insignia means.

AF is charged by congress with oversight of CAP in compliance with federal law. That includes the provisions of 10 USC which protect military uniforms & require distinguishing "stuff" to point out that they are not the military.

AF has chosen to enforce that rather strictly at times in the past, there has also been a lot of politics involved between the two sides, and CAP has done most of the jacked up uniform damage to ourselves.

ACUs have been around for a long time & the full Army is transitioned to them now. ABUs just came out a year or so ago. They are still in transition. CAP will be approved to wear ABUs in the near future, and they won't look all jacked up. Until that happens, please relax and be patient.

[citizensoldier]

Good point.  I would just like to see CAP use olive drab BDU'S.

What he said.

[DNall]

Good point.  I would just like to see CAP use olive drab BDU'S.

What he said.

Doesn't really matter what you want.

We belong to the AF, so we wear AF based uniforms. Even if CAP didn't want to, we would be required to keep that as a prevalent option in order maintain the psychological link to that parent organization - ie remember to dance with the one that brung you.

It is also done because the large supply chain to uniform AF personnel keeps costs low & produces surpluses, both of which are utilized to minimize the costs of participation (primarily with cadets in mind).

Let me say this one more time.... ABUs will be authorized for sure. That was stated by AF before the pattern was even finalized, much less authorized or distributed to AF personnel. I know the proposal is under review. I believe ABU will be authorized for wear before the end of 2009. They will not look unprofessional and clownish as the current BDUs do. If you don't meet ht/wt standards, wear the BBDU which looks just like Coast Guard. Now drive on.

[notaNCO forever]

^^ Coast Guard has a different blouse than us.

[DNall]

^^ Coast Guard has a different blouse than us.

Not that I'm aware of. The ODU is BBDUs. The only difference I know of is the cargo pockets on the pants are velcro closure. I've seen some proposed/new stuff for them with an urban camo kind of pattern that has a CG crest on the pocket, but that's not to my knowledge on the current ODU.

[notaNCO forever]

 I thought they tucked the blouses in and had only two not four pockets. At least thats what I've seen Coast Guard members in my state wear, maybe they have two types of uniforms.

[DNall]

yes there are two types.

[citizensoldier]

Good point.  I would just like to see CAP use olive drab BDU'S.

What he said.

Doesn't really matter what you want.

We belong to the AF, so we wear AF based uniforms. Even if CAP didn't want to, we would be required to keep that as a prevalent option in order maintain the psychological link to that parent organization - ie remember to dance with the one that brung you.

It is also done because the large supply chain to uniform AF personnel keeps costs low & produces surpluses, both of which are utilized to minimize the costs of participation (primarily with cadets in mind).

Let me say this one more time.... ABUs will be authorized for sure. That was stated by AF before the pattern was even finalized, much less authorized or distributed to AF personnel. I know the proposal is under review. I believe ABU will be authorized for wear before the end of 2009. They will not look unprofessional and clownish as the current BDUs do. If you don't meet ht/wt standards, wear the BBDU which looks just like Coast Guard. Now drive on.

Driven on through more than this.  I figure even if we are going to the ABU there is still room to discuss opinions on the subject.  

[MIKE]

I think this thread has run it's course since we're now talking about ODUs.

For the record: DNall, stay in your lane.  The Operational Dress Uniform is not Blue BDUs.  With both the tuck in version and the new untucked version being distinctly different than some off the rack blue BDU as used by CAP.  What LEDETs or the DOG may or may not wear commercial blue BDUs is irrelevant.