Bringing Back the Blue Shoulder Marks and Nametags for CAP Officers

[ColonelJack]

What about a darker gray to look more professional and then remove the ultramarine blue on BDUs and replace that with darker gray as well?

This way we are more consistent with the colors.

No argument here.  Gray doesn't bother me one bit.

As far as the TPU, that was created to "punish" the AF for not allowing the blues epaulets and metal rank.

I am assuming you can back that up with a citation somewhere, and you're not just presenting your personal belief as fact.  I think the Corporate Blues were created to allow the members who don't meet weight standards to have an AF-like uniform.  Period.  No end-run around the Air Force.  (And pray, how can CAP "punish" the Air Force for anything?  You ever see a kid try to "punish" his parents?  It's laughable.)

That was just WRONG in so many ways.

If that is the real reason the Corporate Blues were created, I will agree that it was wrong.  But hey ... the uniform's here and is not going away.  I don't understand why people don't just get past it.  If you don't like it, don't wear it -- nobody is forcing any Officer to have one or to wear one.  Ignore it if you don't like it ... but understand that for some members, it's the only uniform they can wear that allows them to feel a part of the "team."  (Silly as it might sound, that is a real reason for belonging to many people.)

Jack

[Eagle400]

The sad thing is I know there are people out there who bought the TPU (the white shirt and pants part of it anyway) just so they could look more like Air Force officers.

Why do you think the TPU was created?

The TPU was designed with these kind of people in mind.   

[Pumbaa]

I have to ask this.  If the TPU does not need the blessing of the AF, then why oh why do they not include the embroidered CAPon the EPI's like the grey?  Or better yet the CAP cut out?

I mean without the CAP on the shoulder do you think that TP might be mistaken as someone from the Singapore AF?

[Eagle400]

I have to ask this.  If the TPU does not need the blessing of the AF, then why oh why do they not include the embroidered CAPon the EPI's like the grey?  Or better yet the CAP cut out?

Because the uniform was designed for people who want to play Air Force officer. 

I mean without the CAP on the shoulder do you think that TP might be mistaken as someone from the Singapore AF?

No, but maybe the Guatemalan Air Force.   

[Chappie]

Frankly, this topic is moot.  CAP will not have the blue shoulder boards/name tags or hard rank on the USAF Style uniforms until the USAF approves; there is the TPU as a work around for those who wish to wear blue shoulder boards/name tags and hard rank or can't meet the weight/height standards...so it would be a good thing to lock this thread since it is a waste of good bandwidth.

[mikeylikey]

^  I hate the TPU, however I don't think it was created for people to play AF Officer.  Oh wait.......YES I DO!  Especially when it had the "US" cutouts and AF nametag.  It was absolutely a military uniform.  I am glad that they put the "CAP" cutouts on it and changed the nameplate.  I think CAP can have whatever uniform they decide, but lets keep it in line with 60+years of tradition.  That is CAP cutouts.  I would not even mind putting "CAP" cutouts in place of "US" on the Blues.  

I am also one that believes we need to get rid of the gray combo and replace it with the TPU.  That would mean relaxing the grooming standards for the TPU.......which they should have done.

It makes me think that the TPU was designed for FATIES to look more like SKINNY members.  Oh that's right TP does not have a beard so he can get away with wearing the TPU.  Coincidence?  I think not!  

(Before I get bashed.......I was a fattie, no disrespect to those members who were, are or going to be.  I simply mean anyone not within the "relaxed" weight limits for the AF style uniform)

[mikeylikey]

Frankly, this topic is moot.  CAP will not have the blue shoulder boards/name tags or hard rank on the USAF Style uniforms until the USAF approves; there is the TPU as a work around for those who wish to wear blue shoulder boards/name tags and hard rank or can't meet the weight/height standards...so it would be a good thing to lock this thread since it is a waste of good bandwidth.

Hmmmmm......even if something is not worth fighting for you can still discuss it.  Even if something is a dead issue you can still discuss it.  Even if something is not important to the majority, you can still discuss it.  Even if something is moot, you can still discuss it.  Not expressing views or adding to a sensible discussion is a trait of cowards and idiots. 

I don't want anyone to not add to discussions here because something may not be relevant at the moment.  That would be a shame!

[Eagle400]

Agreed.  Let's talk about why the TPU was created.  I firmly believe it's so people in CAP can play Air Force, but there must be another reason.  Any thoughts?   

[LtCol White]

Agreed.  Let's talk about why the TPU was created.  I firmly believe it's so people in CAP can play Air Force, but there must be another reason.  Any thoughts?   

Not the topic of this thread. As ususal, you are proposing discussion on topics where threads already exist and have been beaten to death. GO READ BEFORE BRINGING UP OLD ISSUES. 

Why are you so active on this board with opinions on EVERYTHING but not a member of CAP? Time for you to answer up on this.

[Chappie]

Frankly, this topic is moot.  CAP will not have the blue shoulder boards/name tags or hard rank on the USAF Style uniforms until the USAF approves; there is the TPU as a work around for those who wish to wear blue shoulder boards/name tags and hard rank or can't meet the weight/height standards...so it would be a good thing to lock this thread since it is a waste of good bandwidth.

Hmmmmm......even if something is not worth fighting for you can still discuss it.  Even if something is a dead issue you can still discuss it.  Even if something is not important to the majority, you can still discuss it.  Even if something is moot, you can still discuss it.  Not expressing views or adding to a sensible discussion is a trait of cowards and idiots. 

I don't want anyone to not add to discussions here because something may not be relevant at the moment.  That would be a shame!

The problem is that this topic has been discussed and rehashed previously in this forum and on others.  It seems to generate more heat than light.    

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm bored.

Can we talk about fundraising using Nevada brothels?

If some dude thinks the TPU is so we can play "Air Force," I'd have to ask "Which Air Force?"  It looks more like the Guatemalan Air Force than the US Air Force.

[Eagle400]

Why are you so active on this board with opinions on EVERYTHING but not a member of CAP? Time for you to answer up on this.

I have neither the time nor the money for CAP right now.  That will change when I have my degree in 16 months.  Some of you may be wondering how I have time for both my studies and CAPTalk... well, I do.  Besides, I don't start school until August.  When that happens, the time I spend on this board will go down a little.   

Many of you believe that former members of CAP have no right to their opinions on CAP matters simply because they are not current.  I believe that is wrong.  I may not be a member now, but I was once and I do know about the organization and have knowledge about what I am talking about. 

Can't you people at least give me the benefit of the doubt for wanting to become active again?  There is a difference (a BIG difference) between a former member offering their opinions and a person with no CAP experience offering their opinions.  It is my belief that the person with no CAP experience offering their opinions on how the organization should be run is the one who is wrong.     

[Smokey]

For many years we had the blue epaulet sleeves (with CAP embroidered on them) and a blue nametag in honor of our association with the AF.  That was changed to a maroon sleeves due to the actions of one person as punishment that affected us all.  After a period of time the punishment was slackened to allow us to dump the berry boards for grey.  But it is still , IMHO, a form of distancing us from our parent and a bit of lingering punishment. 

The grey is not too bad on the shirt but absolutely sucks on the service coat. It just looks out of place, kind of like an afterthought.....a definite fashion faux paux. I would like to see the blue boards (with CAP on them) back and blue nametags, but I won't quit if we don't get it.

And I do think the TPU was an end run.  Otherwise it would have grey accoutrement's for standardization like our AF style uniforms.

Finally....the ultramarine name tapes have got to go......ultramarine color sucks. It is a leftover from our smurf suits (I have one in the closet I wore three times---why I  ever wore it who knows!)

[mikeylikey]

Finally....the ultramarine name tapes have got to go......ultramarine color sucks. It is a leftover from our smurf suits (I have one in the closet I wore three times---why I  ever wore it who knows!)

I thought that is was the standard on the fatigues worn by the services until the BDU's came about.  If so.......we (CAP) wore what the military wore and the world did not end.  I theorize that we still have the blue tapes is that the suppliers had HUGE amounts of that material left over when BDU's came out and they offered the old bookstore a "good deal", and we are stuck with it too this day. 

[Chappie]

Why are you so active on this board with opinions on EVERYTHING but not a member of CAP? Time for you to answer up on this.

I have neither the time nor the money for CAP right now.  That will change when I have my degree in 16 months.  Some of you may be wondering how I have time for both my studies and CAPTalk... well, I do.  Besides, I don't start school until August.  When that happens, the time I spend on this board will go down a little.   

Many of you believe that former members of CAP have no right to their opinions on CAP matters simply because they are not current.  I believe that is wrong.  I may not be a member now, but I was once and I do know about the organization and have knowledge about what I am talking about. 

Can't you people at least give me the benefit of the doubt for wanting to become active again?  There is a difference (a BIG difference) between a former member offering their opinions and a person with no CAP experience offering their opinions.  It is my belief that the person with no CAP experience offering their opinions on how the organization should be run is the one who is wrong.     

Though you were once a member and think you have knowledge about what I am talking about...that knowledge is not current.  Personnel and regulations have changed during the time you have been inactive.  This is not the same organization it was when you were active....I'm an active member and can say it is not the same organization that I joined several years ago.

IMHO you are still an outsider looking in --- a Monday morning quarterback.   Since you are not a member there is no chain of command for you to share your concerns/issues or address your questions.

[Hawk200]

There is a difference (a BIG difference) between a former member offering their opinions and a person with no CAP experience offering their opinions.  It is my belief that the person with no CAP experience offering their opinions on how the organization should be run is the one who is wrong. 

There is a big difference. The problem with some former members offering opinions is that sometimes those opinions aren't based on current knowledge. You came in all but demanding an explanation on why we have to wear grey epaulets. It's an answer that noone has. If you had done some research on this board of the many former threads you would have found that out. You came in uninformed, and did no research.

If you approach a National staff member with those questions, they won't talk to you. Considering how many people there are with axes to grind with CAP, it's not an unfair response. They don't know if you're there to help or harm. With our society, it's not unreasonable for individuals to corporations to be close-lipped on their operations.

I'm not jumping your case right now, I'm simply offering an explanation as to why some members here are treating you with hostility. Do some research, there is a pretty handy search function on this board. Read through the threads, and then if you don't find the answer your looking for, ask a question. This is another reason why some are hostile. You haven't been looking things up.

[Mustang]

Correct ... the Air Force has no say over corporate uniforms, and they don't care about our corporate uniforms, either.

I wouldn't go that far.  What they say publicly and what they say behind closed doors are likely two different animals.  I'd venture to guess that off the record, the AF is none too happy with the TPU, and at a loss as to what to do about it.

Unless things have changed over the last few years since I retired, CAP falls under the aegis of Air University, which is a component of Air Education and Training Command.  Thus, any decisions regarding CAP do work their way up to AETC/CC. 

You've spelled out the CAP-USAF chain of command capably, but it doesn't apply to CAP in the slightest.  CAP's chain stops at the Board of Governors, period.

[Eagle400]

For many years we had the blue epaulet sleeves (with CAP embroidered on them) and a blue nametag in honor of our association with the AF.  That was changed to a maroon sleeves due to the actions of one person as punishment that affected us all.  After a period of time the punishment was slackened to allow us to dump the berry boards for grey.  But it is still , IMHO, a form of distancing us from our parent and a bit of lingering punishment.

I feel the same way.  Does anyone have proof that the gray is not a punishment?    

The grey is not too bad on the shirt but absolutely sucks on the service coat. It just looks out of place, kind of like an afterthought.....a definite fashion faux paux. I would like to see the blue boards (with CAP on them) back and blue nametags, but I won't quit if we don't get it.

Well, at the very least, the gray epaulets should be darkened about 4 or 5 shades so that they match the service coat better.  It would also look more professional, in my opinion. 

And I do think the TPU was an end run.  Otherwise it would have grey accoutrement's for standardization like our AF style uniforms.

That's the point I've been trying to make.  The TPU puts a wrench in the "one team, one fight, one look" machine for CAP.  I believe there should be more standardization when it comes to uniforms.  As it stands now, the TPU is more for the "wannabe Air Force" types than anyone else.  Doing away with the blue AF epaulets and blue CAP nametags would change that (along with getting rid of the silver sleeve braid and hard rank).       

Finally....the ultramarine name tapes have got to go......ultramarine color sucks. It is a leftover from our smurf suits (I have one in the closet I wore three times---why I  ever wore it who knows!)

I agree.  Dark blue is a much, much better color and should be used in place of the ultramarine blue.  Looks more professional.   

[ColonelJack]

Why am I suddenly reminded of the old line ...

"Don't confuse me with facts, please ... I've already made up my mind."

I'm not entirely sure what some folks are trying to accomplish in this discussion here.  If it's a demonstration of stubborn intransigence, it's working quite well.  If it's an attempt to sway people to one side of an issue or another, it ain't going so good.  And if it's just a whine/gripe session, well ... use your own measuring stick on that.

Some here think the gray epaulets on the AF uniform would be just fine on the Corporate uniform.  Surprise -- I agree.  (Not on the coat, maybe, but then I don't think they look all that hot on the AF coat either.  The use of CAP cutouts and the special silver nameplate, in my view, makes the hard rank on either coat okay, but that decision is way above my pay grade.)  I could easily handle wearing the same epaulets and nameplate on the corporate blues that we wear on the AF blues; it would serve to make even the corporate blues distinctive enough.

And I gather that absolutely nothing one puts forward will change some peoples' opinions that the corporate blue uniform is an "end-run" around the AF or a uniform for "wannabes."  Never mind the idea that those who don't meet weight standards want to fit in; their uniform choice, according to you, should be aviator grays (which, thanks to the wide variety of commercially-available gray pants out there, is less of a uniform than anything else), or the polo shirt (which isn't a uniform of any kind).  Anything else makes them a wannabe.  That's a bit narrow-minded, don'tcha think?  Maybe one could look at the individual member and see why they would prefer the corporate blue uniform before tarring all such members with the same brush -- one that in most cases would be wrong anyway.

And as for what the Air Force thinks about our corporate uniforms ... what they say in public and what they say behind our backs may indeed be different.  But you know what ... some AF members have been saying that about CAP since 1947, folks.  There are many AF personnel who don't want to see civilians wearing any kind of uniform that even remotely looks like their beloved AF uniform.  They don't know CAP, don't know what CAP does, don't care about CAP -- our people, to them, are simply civilians wearing AF uniforms and they don't like it.  Mustang said, "I'd venture to guess that off the record, the AF is none too happy with the TPU, and at a loss as to what to do about it."  I would say that he is half right.  The Air Force may not like the Corporate uniform at all.  But they're not at a loss as to what to do about it, because -- according to their own regulations -- they can't do anything at all.  And they recognize that.  And I believe they just have more pressing matters to worry about and aren't all that concerned with it.  Maybe we shouldn't be all that concerned with it either.

I hope all that made sense.  I'm trying to write at 5:45 in the morning.  (Why am I up so early, anyway?)

Jack

[Pumbaa]

Good word: though you basically repeated yourself by putting the word stubborn in front

intransigency: the trait of being intransigent; stubbornly refusing to compromise


>>>>

At first I did not like the TPU... The reason I like it over the grays is basically due to the color mismatch of the gray Epi's to the pants.  At least the TPU the difference is not as no ticable.

When I wear the TPU, I wear short sleeve, my name tag, Epi's and my PAO badge, that's it...  And yeah I did shave to wear it!

I wear the grays when asked, such as the SARCOMP so the entire PAO staff was uniform in appearance. Besides I can be fuzzy again too!

RE uniforms: My only beef is we have basically 3 corporate uniforms for seniors officers. (and of course the AF blues) I would like to see it narrowed to one.  Or at least one corporate and the polo casual going to a white polo if we standardize on the TPU.  Thus we again maintain some form of uniformity.

I will not wear the AF style of the blue shirt, basically because I am not a wanna be, and I also do not like the color lack of coordination of the Epi's.

Look I was a pro photographer for 23+ years.  Color balance and aesthetics was my business.

Does my membership depend on the uniform?  Heck no!  I would just like to see the powers that be, get their heads out of their respective hind quarters and see that they need to do SOMETHING to at least bring a more uniform look.

Don't make any more changes to the uniform of choice for 2 years.  Sunset the others they are not standaridzing on within 12-18 months.

As for the cadets, leave them as is.  When the AF switches to the ABU, then perhaps moving them over to a BBDU and whatever the standard senior is.  But that is a few years off anyways.