Bringing Back the Blue Shoulder Marks and Nametags for CAP Officers

[Eagle400]

Somehow, I believe that it is possible to bring back the blue shoulder marks and nametags for CAP officers to wear on the AF style service dress uniform.  What I'd like to know is what it would take for this to happen.

Even better, would be to know why the Air Force has forced CAP to wear the current grey nametags and shoulder marks on the AF style uniforms, even long after the incident that started all this. 

I know that the Air Force values CAP and considers it a good force multiplier (among other things), but I am puzzled as to why they won't allow the officers to wear blue nametags and shoulder marks on the AF blue service uniform.  Especially when SDF's are able to.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

We asked as late as last year.  They said "No."

What part of "No" don't you understand?

We wear gray epaulets to differentiate us from USAF officers.  We are not an SDF, and since we are not, we are governed by an entirely different set of regulations.

We formerly had ugly maroon epaulets.  That was for punishment.  The gray is not.  We got the gray after the Air Force decided we had been punished enough for the unprofessional conduct of a former national commander.

You have two choices:

1.  Learn to live with the gray, OR

2.  If you want to wear blue epaulets, join the USAF or an SDF.

[O-Rex]

The subject has been addressed ad nauseum.

Because USAF said so, that's why.

[Eagle400]

Because USAF said so, that's why.

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

What about black epaulets and nametags?  Has that been proposed?  They are distinctive, but (in my opinion) look more professional than the current gray epaulets and nametags.

It's like going from ultramarine blue tapes on the BDU to dark blue tapes.  It's a matter of having a professional look.  Not necessarily mirroring the Air Force, but having a more professional look.

In my opinion, there's only one place for the gray epaulets and nametags, and that's the gray and white corporate uniform.   

[Pylon]

Because USAF said so, that's why.

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

We have talked about it.  A quick search reveals a handful of threads already where this topic has been tossed about often.

I am not a big advocate of changing our uniforms.  The less change the better.  The cheaper for the membership, the less confusion, and less disjointedness caused by "phase-in" periods.

It's like going from ultramarine blue tapes on the BDU to dark blue tapes.  It's a matter of having a professional look.

This is one of only two changes I would really like to see, and it could be accomplished by attrition as dark blue doesn't look too terribly different from ultramarine.  The dark blue just looks less garish and better, in my opinion.

The only problem is that in the near future CAP will be moving to the ABUs.  I'd rather wait and see what nametape colors are suggested at that point, first.  We may find better ideas at that juncture.

In my opinion, there's only one place for the gray epaulets and nametags, and that's the gray and white corporate uniform.   

In my opinion, they look fine.  They don't clash with light blue, they look fine to the general public (in other words people don't ask: why does that guy have ugly gray on with that uniform?!), they make brother blue happy, and they do the job. 

We look close enough to the Air Force with our own distinctive look.  I don't think we need to tweak the major portions of the Air Force-style uniforms.

[Hawk200]

Somehow, I believe that it is possible to bring back the blue shoulder marks and nametags for CAP officers to wear on the AF style service dress uniform.  What I'd like to know is what it would take for this to happen.

Let me ask you a question: If there was a way to do it, why has it not been done?

Even better, would be to know why the Air Force has forced CAP to wear the current grey nametags and shoulder marks on the AF style uniforms, even long after the incident that started all this.

Institutions have far longer memories than individuals. And considering a certain general produced his own uniform recently, why would CAP uniforms be of any importance? Answer honestly, not stupidly. Saying "Well, that doesn't matter, they owe us an answer" is an example of "answering stupidly".

I know that the Air Force values CAP and considers it a good force multiplier (among other things), but I am puzzled as to why they won't allow the officers to wear blue nametags and shoulder marks on the AF blue service uniform.  Especially when SDF's are able to. 

SDF's do not answer to the Air Force in any way, shape or form. They are exclusively state entities with not one single link in a chain of command to the Air Force. The Air Force has no say in what the various governor's decide to clothe their private little air forces in. If they did, they would have done it by now.

Comparing CAP to SDF's is comparing apples and peanuts. Completely unrelated.

[Eagle400]

Let me ask you a question: If there was a way to do it, why has it not been done?

Because there are people in power at CAP NHQ and CAP-USAF that don't want it to happen, for whatever reason.  They don't need to give the reason, but it would be great if they did.   

Institutions have far longer memories than individuals. And considering a certain general produced his own uniform recently, why would CAP uniforms be of any importance? Answer honestly, not stupidly. Saying "Well, that doesn't matter, they owe us an answer" is an example of "answering stupidly".

All right, well here's the most honest answer I can give: I don't know. 

Air Force uniforms for CAP, however, are a different matter.  If CAP personnel can't wear blue epaulets and nametags with the AF-style service uniform combinations, then can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP (SD & TPU) at least look uniform?  What I mean by that is, why can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP have gray epaulets and nametags?  I do not care for the gray nametags and epaulets, but CAP is one team and all the uniforms should reflect this.

And why on earth did the Air Force approve of the blue epaulets for the TPU but not the Air Force blue service uniform?     That is a decision that puzzles me to this day.  The TPU is a CAP uniform and should not be entitled to any item of the Air Force uniform whatsoever.  Please National... for heaven's sake... get rid of the blue Air Force epaulets from the TPU!!!  And get rid of that silver sleeve braid too, so CAP personnel don't get confused for Coast Guard Auxiliary officers.   

SDF's do not answer to the Air Force in any way, shape or form.

Where did I say or imply they do, Hawk200?  You need to go back and read what was written.

They are exclusively state entities with not one single link in a chain of command to the Air Force. The Air Force has no say in what the various governor's decide to clothe their private little air forces in. If they did, they would have done it by now.

Then maybe it's time for CAP to be put under the National Guard Bureau rather than AU/AETC.  Make it the auxiliary of the Air National Guard.  See if they have a problem with blue epaulets and nametags for CAP personnel!   

[Hawk200]

All right, well here's the most honest answer I can give: I don't know. 

We don't have the answers either. You're beating your head against a brick wall here. We cannot give what we do not have.

Air Force uniforms for CAP, however, are a different matter.  If CAP personnel can't wear blue epaulets and nametags with the AF-style service uniform combinations, then can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP (SD & TPU) at least look uniform?  What I mean by that is, why can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP have gray epaulets and nametags?  I do not care for the gray nametags and epaulets, but CAP is one team and all the uniforms should reflect this.

Valid points. The Air Force approved how we could wear their uniform (AF Blues, BDU's, Green Flightsuits). If it's not their uniform, and they did not create it; they do not care about it.

And why on earth did the Air Force approve of the blue epaulets for the TPU but not the Air Force blue service uniform? 

The Air Force did not approve the use of their epaulets. From what we're told, they didn't care. The white shirt made it corporate enough that it wasn't on their radar. The use of those epaulets was done by the individual that the uniform is nicknamed for.

SDF's do not answer to the Air Force in any way, shape or form.

Where did I say or imply they do, Hawk200?  You need to go back and read what was written.

I did read what was written, the statement you made:

Especially when SDF's are able to. 

That statement implied that they recieved some type of approval from the Air Force. Even if you didn't intend to make that implication, that is the way it reads.

Saying that SDF's are allowed to do something that CAP is not, is a comparison that you should not have made in the first place. Those states did their own thing. We are not in a position to do the same.

They are exclusively state entities with not one single link in a chain of command to the Air Force. The Air Force has no say in what the various governor's decide to clothe their private little air forces in. If they did, they would have done it by now.

Then maybe it's time for CAP to be put under the National Guard Bureau rather than AU/AETC.  Make it the auxiliary of the Air National Guard.  See if they have a problem with blue epaulets and nametags for CAP personnel!   

Not up to us. Not up to me, not up to you, probably not up to anyone that even reads this board. It's up to the Air Force and to Congress. If you can sway them, you might be able to get it.

[JarakMaldon]

If the decision was made to resurrect the blue epaulets with the CAP embroidery, and it was made to be on all service uniform flavors, then that would work out fine, IMHO. 

But Smitty, you need to ask yourself this question: Do you want to see blue epaulets back on AF-style threads because you think it would be a nice morale boost to the organization, or is it because you want to play Air Force officer?

It seems, from my point of view, that an awful lot of the aching to get blue back comes from people who want to go around thinking they are Air Force officers.  Really, does the gray prevent you from being a good CAP troop?

[mikeylikey]

^^ Perhaps people JUST DON'T LIKE the gray!  It does not mean they want to play AF Officer.  I hate the color gray in general!  Some people like it. 

Then there is the is the issue that we don't have blue because it was a punitive measure against a group they may or may not even be part of our organization any longer.  How about the point of view that one part of teh organization (cadets) can have blue but SM's can't.  I have met my fair share of 20 year old cadets who look older than a 30 year old SM. 

Don't base the wanting blue slides with the notion we want to look like AF officers. 

[MIKE]

I don't think we really need to be as distinctive as we are... The wannabeism could be toned down with training and emphasis on proffesionalism... and possibly actual commissions on the RAFVR(T) model or similar.  But that would also mean Auxiliary with a capitol "A".

[Hawk200]

^^ Perhaps people JUST DON'T LIKE the gray!  It does not mean they want to play AF Officer.  I hate the color gray in general!  Some people like it.

But in some cases, it does mean they want to play AF Officer. Unfortunate, but not all of our people are in it for the service to their community.

How about the point of view that one part of teh organization (cadets) can have blue but SM's can't.  I have met my fair share of 20 year old cadets who look older than a 30 year old SM. 

I would definitely agree on this point. Either all or none. And I have seen a few cadet officers that are little too big for their epaulets. Cadets and senior would look more like the same organization with the same color slides.

Don't base the wanting blue slides with the notion we want to look like AF officers. 

As an all inclusive assumption, it's not accurate. But in some individual accounts, it is the reason they join. Some are more about the appearance than anything else.

[Eagle400]

If the decision was made to resurrect the blue epaulets with the CAP embroidery, and it was made to be on all service uniform flavors, then that would work out fine, IMHO.

We're on the same page, sir.  I think it is wrong for CAP personnel to be wearing blue AF epaulets without any CAP embroidery on them.  That's one big problem I have with the TPU.     

But Smitty, you need to ask yourself this question: Do you want to see blue epaulets back on AF-style threads because you think it would be a nice morale boost to the organization, or is it because you want to play Air Force officer?

I want to see blue epaulets back on AF-style uniforms for CAP because not only would it be a nice morale boost for the organization, but because that's the way it was for many years.  The Air Force took the blue epaulets and nametags away from CAP because of the actions of one general.  That means, except for the general, it was an undeserved removal.   

I am medically disqualified from the Air Force, and there is a fairly good chance I won't get a waiver.  I may (may) never have the chance to wear blue Air Force epaulets, but it would be nice to wear blue CAP epaulets and nametags.  I'm not saying I'm an Air Force wannabe, just that I would feel a lot better about wearing the AF-style uniform for CAP if it were like the kind I wore as a CAP cadet.

However, this thread is not about me.  I came here to see what you all think about the gray epaulets/nametag and if there is a better color combination out there.  I firmly believe that there is, just as there is a better color for the BDU tapes than ultramarine blue.  Dark blue looks more professional.  Well, so do dark blue epaulets.           

It seems, from my point of view, that an awful lot of the aching to get blue back comes from people who want to go around thinking they are Air Force officers.  Really, does the gray prevent you from being a good CAP troop?

No, the gray epaulets and nametags don't prevent folks from being good CAP troops.  However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.  See the problem I have with the gray? 

What was meant to be a punishment has turned into an embarassment, in my opinion. 

[Hawk200]

No, the gray epaulets and nametags don't prevent folks from being good CAP troops.  However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.  See the problem I have with the gray? 

What was meant to be a punishment has turned into an embarassment, in my opinion. 

You have one major flaw with your thinking. Grey epaulets were never a punishment. Grey epaulets and nametag were actually an effort to produce something coordinated, and improved appearance.

The punishment was the Maroon epaulets. Which was worn with a blue nametag. That was tacky. I wore those. Didn't like them; but I got in it to do something more in my community than to just leave buttprints in the scenery.

I would dare say that most people don't feel demeaned by wearing grey epaulets. They just hate the color. Black has been proposed, and some people don't like that either.

I'm no psyche major, but it seems like you are rather angry about not being able to serve in the military. CAP wearing blue epaulets is not going to change that fact. Trying to change the CAP uniform to something emulating the Air Force isn't going to change that. If you think it will, then I'm sorry to tell you that you're lying to yourself. And you won't be happy even if the change comes about. Because, in your heart, you'll know it's a lie.

[DeputyDog]

However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.

It is not demeaning for me. Sure it looks odd, but it is not demeaning. No one is forcing anyone to wear any color of epaulets and nametags.

If you feel it is demeaning, then you don't join (like you). However, I can assume that most senior members (officers) can really care less about what color their epaulets are (provided, of course, that they are not pink, orange, neon green, maroon or yellow, etc).

Since we can't have blue, I see gray as an acceptable alternative on the Air Force style-uniforms.

[Mustang]

Let me ask you a question: If there was a way to do it, why has it not been done?

Because there are people in power at CAP NHQ and CAP-USAF that don't want it to happen, for whatever reason.  They don't need to give the reason, but it would be great if they did.   

In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, it MUST be a conspiracy! Better close your windows, the black helicopters are on their way to get you! No Smitty, the decision came not from NHQ or CAP-USAF, but from AETC/CC.  (Why TP felt that was the correct channel is anyone's guess.)

And why on earth did the Air Force approve of the blue epaulets for the TPU but not the Air Force blue service uniform?     That is a decision that puzzles me to this day. 

What on earth gave you the impression the Air Force was even asked to approve any facet of the TPU?  The Air Force has no say over CAP-distinctive uniforms and was not consulted regarding the TPU.  What CAP-USAF has said is that the Air Force did not object to the uniform, but that's not to say that they approve of it by any stretch.  What El Hefe did with the TPU was an end-run around the Air Force, plain and simple.

[ColonelJack]

What on earth gave you the impression the Air Force was even asked to approve any facet of the TPU?  The Air Force has no say over CAP-distinctive uniforms and was not consulted regarding the TPU.  What CAP-USAF has said is that the Air Force did not object to the uniform, but that's not to say that they approve of it by any stretch.  What El Hefe did with the TPU was an end-run around the Air Force, plain and simple.

Correct ... the Air Force has no say over corporate uniforms, and they don't care about our corporate uniforms, either.  They've said they don't object ... and don't have to even be asked for approval.  (That's what the CC of CAP-USAF himself said.  It doesn't matter to him or the AF one way or the other.) 

The Corporate Blues could have been designed with silver shoulder cords, purple sleeve braid, and polka-dotted ties, with blue AF officer sleeves on shoulder straps ... and the AF wouldn't have blinked an eye.  The Corporate Blues may be viewed by many as an end-run around the Air Force, but if the Air Force doesn't care and has said so, even calling the uniform an end-run loses its impact.

Jack

[RogueLeader]

No, the gray epaulets and nametags don't prevent folks from being good CAP troops.  However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.  See the problem I have with the gray? 

What was meant to be a punishment has turned into an embarassment, in my opinion. 

Hey, I can't join the AF due to medical- or any branch for that matter.  I do not find it demeaning to wear gray nametages or epaulets.  Does that mean that I would not like to have AF Blue epaulets? No, I would like them, but they said no; plus it is not such a big deal to fuss over.  If there was a petition to the AF to get the blue back, I would sign, but I will not lose sleep over it.

[captrncap]

What about a darker gray to look more professional and then remove the ultramarine blue on BDUs and replace that with darker gray as well?

This way we are more consistent with the colors.

As far as the TPU, that was created to "punish" the AF for not allowing the blues epaulets and metal rank.

That was just WRONG in so many ways.

[ColonelJack]

[In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, it MUST be a conspiracy! Better close your windows, the black helicopters are on their way to get you! No Smitty, the decision came not from NHQ or CAP-USAF, but from AETC/CC.  (Why TP felt that was the correct channel is anyone's guess.)

Unless things have changed over the last few years since I retired, CAP falls under the aegis of Air University, which is a component of Air Education and Training Command.  Thus, any decisions regarding CAP do work their way up to AETC/CC.  And if he had signed off on the idea, it would have gone to the Air Force Chief of Staff for final approval.  I'm guessing (I don't know this for sure) that CAP-USAF/CC had no real issue with the idea ... AU/CC had no real issue with the idea ... but AETC/CC had a real problem with it and nixed it.  Under chain of command, once a link disapproves, the issue is dead.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

What about a darker gray to look more professional and then remove the ultramarine blue on BDUs and replace that with darker gray as well?

This way we are more consistent with the colors.

No argument here.  Gray doesn't bother me one bit.

As far as the TPU, that was created to "punish" the AF for not allowing the blues epaulets and metal rank.

I am assuming you can back that up with a citation somewhere, and you're not just presenting your personal belief as fact.  I think the Corporate Blues were created to allow the members who don't meet weight standards to have an AF-like uniform.  Period.  No end-run around the Air Force.  (And pray, how can CAP "punish" the Air Force for anything?  You ever see a kid try to "punish" his parents?  It's laughable.)

That was just WRONG in so many ways.

If that is the real reason the Corporate Blues were created, I will agree that it was wrong.  But hey ... the uniform's here and is not going away.  I don't understand why people don't just get past it.  If you don't like it, don't wear it -- nobody is forcing any Officer to have one or to wear one.  Ignore it if you don't like it ... but understand that for some members, it's the only uniform they can wear that allows them to feel a part of the "team."  (Silly as it might sound, that is a real reason for belonging to many people.)

Jack

[Eagle400]

The sad thing is I know there are people out there who bought the TPU (the white shirt and pants part of it anyway) just so they could look more like Air Force officers.

Why do you think the TPU was created?

The TPU was designed with these kind of people in mind.   

[Pumbaa]

I have to ask this.  If the TPU does not need the blessing of the AF, then why oh why do they not include the embroidered CAPon the EPI's like the grey?  Or better yet the CAP cut out?

I mean without the CAP on the shoulder do you think that TP might be mistaken as someone from the Singapore AF?

[Eagle400]

I have to ask this.  If the TPU does not need the blessing of the AF, then why oh why do they not include the embroidered CAPon the EPI's like the grey?  Or better yet the CAP cut out?

Because the uniform was designed for people who want to play Air Force officer. 

I mean without the CAP on the shoulder do you think that TP might be mistaken as someone from the Singapore AF?

No, but maybe the Guatemalan Air Force.   

[Chappie]

Frankly, this topic is moot.  CAP will not have the blue shoulder boards/name tags or hard rank on the USAF Style uniforms until the USAF approves; there is the TPU as a work around for those who wish to wear blue shoulder boards/name tags and hard rank or can't meet the weight/height standards...so it would be a good thing to lock this thread since it is a waste of good bandwidth.

[mikeylikey]

^  I hate the TPU, however I don't think it was created for people to play AF Officer.  Oh wait.......YES I DO!  Especially when it had the "US" cutouts and AF nametag.  It was absolutely a military uniform.  I am glad that they put the "CAP" cutouts on it and changed the nameplate.  I think CAP can have whatever uniform they decide, but lets keep it in line with 60+years of tradition.  That is CAP cutouts.  I would not even mind putting "CAP" cutouts in place of "US" on the Blues.  

I am also one that believes we need to get rid of the gray combo and replace it with the TPU.  That would mean relaxing the grooming standards for the TPU.......which they should have done.

It makes me think that the TPU was designed for FATIES to look more like SKINNY members.  Oh that's right TP does not have a beard so he can get away with wearing the TPU.  Coincidence?  I think not!  

(Before I get bashed.......I was a fattie, no disrespect to those members who were, are or going to be.  I simply mean anyone not within the "relaxed" weight limits for the AF style uniform)

[mikeylikey]

Frankly, this topic is moot.  CAP will not have the blue shoulder boards/name tags or hard rank on the USAF Style uniforms until the USAF approves; there is the TPU as a work around for those who wish to wear blue shoulder boards/name tags and hard rank or can't meet the weight/height standards...so it would be a good thing to lock this thread since it is a waste of good bandwidth.

Hmmmmm......even if something is not worth fighting for you can still discuss it.  Even if something is a dead issue you can still discuss it.  Even if something is not important to the majority, you can still discuss it.  Even if something is moot, you can still discuss it.  Not expressing views or adding to a sensible discussion is a trait of cowards and idiots. 

I don't want anyone to not add to discussions here because something may not be relevant at the moment.  That would be a shame!

[Eagle400]

Agreed.  Let's talk about why the TPU was created.  I firmly believe it's so people in CAP can play Air Force, but there must be another reason.  Any thoughts?   

[LtCol White]

Agreed.  Let's talk about why the TPU was created.  I firmly believe it's so people in CAP can play Air Force, but there must be another reason.  Any thoughts?   

Not the topic of this thread. As ususal, you are proposing discussion on topics where threads already exist and have been beaten to death. GO READ BEFORE BRINGING UP OLD ISSUES. 

Why are you so active on this board with opinions on EVERYTHING but not a member of CAP? Time for you to answer up on this.

[Chappie]

Frankly, this topic is moot.  CAP will not have the blue shoulder boards/name tags or hard rank on the USAF Style uniforms until the USAF approves; there is the TPU as a work around for those who wish to wear blue shoulder boards/name tags and hard rank or can't meet the weight/height standards...so it would be a good thing to lock this thread since it is a waste of good bandwidth.

Hmmmmm......even if something is not worth fighting for you can still discuss it.  Even if something is a dead issue you can still discuss it.  Even if something is not important to the majority, you can still discuss it.  Even if something is moot, you can still discuss it.  Not expressing views or adding to a sensible discussion is a trait of cowards and idiots. 

I don't want anyone to not add to discussions here because something may not be relevant at the moment.  That would be a shame!

The problem is that this topic has been discussed and rehashed previously in this forum and on others.  It seems to generate more heat than light.    

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm bored.

Can we talk about fundraising using Nevada brothels?

If some dude thinks the TPU is so we can play "Air Force," I'd have to ask "Which Air Force?"  It looks more like the Guatemalan Air Force than the US Air Force.

[Eagle400]

Why are you so active on this board with opinions on EVERYTHING but not a member of CAP? Time for you to answer up on this.

I have neither the time nor the money for CAP right now.  That will change when I have my degree in 16 months.  Some of you may be wondering how I have time for both my studies and CAPTalk... well, I do.  Besides, I don't start school until August.  When that happens, the time I spend on this board will go down a little.   

Many of you believe that former members of CAP have no right to their opinions on CAP matters simply because they are not current.  I believe that is wrong.  I may not be a member now, but I was once and I do know about the organization and have knowledge about what I am talking about. 

Can't you people at least give me the benefit of the doubt for wanting to become active again?  There is a difference (a BIG difference) between a former member offering their opinions and a person with no CAP experience offering their opinions.  It is my belief that the person with no CAP experience offering their opinions on how the organization should be run is the one who is wrong.     

[Smokey]

For many years we had the blue epaulet sleeves (with CAP embroidered on them) and a blue nametag in honor of our association with the AF.  That was changed to a maroon sleeves due to the actions of one person as punishment that affected us all.  After a period of time the punishment was slackened to allow us to dump the berry boards for grey.  But it is still , IMHO, a form of distancing us from our parent and a bit of lingering punishment. 

The grey is not too bad on the shirt but absolutely sucks on the service coat. It just looks out of place, kind of like an afterthought.....a definite fashion faux paux. I would like to see the blue boards (with CAP on them) back and blue nametags, but I won't quit if we don't get it.

And I do think the TPU was an end run.  Otherwise it would have grey accoutrement's for standardization like our AF style uniforms.

Finally....the ultramarine name tapes have got to go......ultramarine color sucks. It is a leftover from our smurf suits (I have one in the closet I wore three times---why I  ever wore it who knows!)

[mikeylikey]

Finally....the ultramarine name tapes have got to go......ultramarine color sucks. It is a leftover from our smurf suits (I have one in the closet I wore three times---why I  ever wore it who knows!)

I thought that is was the standard on the fatigues worn by the services until the BDU's came about.  If so.......we (CAP) wore what the military wore and the world did not end.  I theorize that we still have the blue tapes is that the suppliers had HUGE amounts of that material left over when BDU's came out and they offered the old bookstore a "good deal", and we are stuck with it too this day. 

[Chappie]

Why are you so active on this board with opinions on EVERYTHING but not a member of CAP? Time for you to answer up on this.

I have neither the time nor the money for CAP right now.  That will change when I have my degree in 16 months.  Some of you may be wondering how I have time for both my studies and CAPTalk... well, I do.  Besides, I don't start school until August.  When that happens, the time I spend on this board will go down a little.   

Many of you believe that former members of CAP have no right to their opinions on CAP matters simply because they are not current.  I believe that is wrong.  I may not be a member now, but I was once and I do know about the organization and have knowledge about what I am talking about. 

Can't you people at least give me the benefit of the doubt for wanting to become active again?  There is a difference (a BIG difference) between a former member offering their opinions and a person with no CAP experience offering their opinions.  It is my belief that the person with no CAP experience offering their opinions on how the organization should be run is the one who is wrong.     

Though you were once a member and think you have knowledge about what I am talking about...that knowledge is not current.  Personnel and regulations have changed during the time you have been inactive.  This is not the same organization it was when you were active....I'm an active member and can say it is not the same organization that I joined several years ago.

IMHO you are still an outsider looking in --- a Monday morning quarterback.   Since you are not a member there is no chain of command for you to share your concerns/issues or address your questions.

[Hawk200]

There is a difference (a BIG difference) between a former member offering their opinions and a person with no CAP experience offering their opinions.  It is my belief that the person with no CAP experience offering their opinions on how the organization should be run is the one who is wrong. 

There is a big difference. The problem with some former members offering opinions is that sometimes those opinions aren't based on current knowledge. You came in all but demanding an explanation on why we have to wear grey epaulets. It's an answer that noone has. If you had done some research on this board of the many former threads you would have found that out. You came in uninformed, and did no research.

If you approach a National staff member with those questions, they won't talk to you. Considering how many people there are with axes to grind with CAP, it's not an unfair response. They don't know if you're there to help or harm. With our society, it's not unreasonable for individuals to corporations to be close-lipped on their operations.

I'm not jumping your case right now, I'm simply offering an explanation as to why some members here are treating you with hostility. Do some research, there is a pretty handy search function on this board. Read through the threads, and then if you don't find the answer your looking for, ask a question. This is another reason why some are hostile. You haven't been looking things up.

[Mustang]

Correct ... the Air Force has no say over corporate uniforms, and they don't care about our corporate uniforms, either.

I wouldn't go that far.  What they say publicly and what they say behind closed doors are likely two different animals.  I'd venture to guess that off the record, the AF is none too happy with the TPU, and at a loss as to what to do about it.

Unless things have changed over the last few years since I retired, CAP falls under the aegis of Air University, which is a component of Air Education and Training Command.  Thus, any decisions regarding CAP do work their way up to AETC/CC. 

You've spelled out the CAP-USAF chain of command capably, but it doesn't apply to CAP in the slightest.  CAP's chain stops at the Board of Governors, period.

[Eagle400]

For many years we had the blue epaulet sleeves (with CAP embroidered on them) and a blue nametag in honor of our association with the AF.  That was changed to a maroon sleeves due to the actions of one person as punishment that affected us all.  After a period of time the punishment was slackened to allow us to dump the berry boards for grey.  But it is still , IMHO, a form of distancing us from our parent and a bit of lingering punishment.

I feel the same way.  Does anyone have proof that the gray is not a punishment?    

The grey is not too bad on the shirt but absolutely sucks on the service coat. It just looks out of place, kind of like an afterthought.....a definite fashion faux paux. I would like to see the blue boards (with CAP on them) back and blue nametags, but I won't quit if we don't get it.

Well, at the very least, the gray epaulets should be darkened about 4 or 5 shades so that they match the service coat better.  It would also look more professional, in my opinion. 

And I do think the TPU was an end run.  Otherwise it would have grey accoutrement's for standardization like our AF style uniforms.

That's the point I've been trying to make.  The TPU puts a wrench in the "one team, one fight, one look" machine for CAP.  I believe there should be more standardization when it comes to uniforms.  As it stands now, the TPU is more for the "wannabe Air Force" types than anyone else.  Doing away with the blue AF epaulets and blue CAP nametags would change that (along with getting rid of the silver sleeve braid and hard rank).       

Finally....the ultramarine name tapes have got to go......ultramarine color sucks. It is a leftover from our smurf suits (I have one in the closet I wore three times---why I  ever wore it who knows!)

I agree.  Dark blue is a much, much better color and should be used in place of the ultramarine blue.  Looks more professional.   

[ColonelJack]

Why am I suddenly reminded of the old line ...

"Don't confuse me with facts, please ... I've already made up my mind."

I'm not entirely sure what some folks are trying to accomplish in this discussion here.  If it's a demonstration of stubborn intransigence, it's working quite well.  If it's an attempt to sway people to one side of an issue or another, it ain't going so good.  And if it's just a whine/gripe session, well ... use your own measuring stick on that.

Some here think the gray epaulets on the AF uniform would be just fine on the Corporate uniform.  Surprise -- I agree.  (Not on the coat, maybe, but then I don't think they look all that hot on the AF coat either.  The use of CAP cutouts and the special silver nameplate, in my view, makes the hard rank on either coat okay, but that decision is way above my pay grade.)  I could easily handle wearing the same epaulets and nameplate on the corporate blues that we wear on the AF blues; it would serve to make even the corporate blues distinctive enough.

And I gather that absolutely nothing one puts forward will change some peoples' opinions that the corporate blue uniform is an "end-run" around the AF or a uniform for "wannabes."  Never mind the idea that those who don't meet weight standards want to fit in; their uniform choice, according to you, should be aviator grays (which, thanks to the wide variety of commercially-available gray pants out there, is less of a uniform than anything else), or the polo shirt (which isn't a uniform of any kind).  Anything else makes them a wannabe.  That's a bit narrow-minded, don'tcha think?  Maybe one could look at the individual member and see why they would prefer the corporate blue uniform before tarring all such members with the same brush -- one that in most cases would be wrong anyway.

And as for what the Air Force thinks about our corporate uniforms ... what they say in public and what they say behind our backs may indeed be different.  But you know what ... some AF members have been saying that about CAP since 1947, folks.  There are many AF personnel who don't want to see civilians wearing any kind of uniform that even remotely looks like their beloved AF uniform.  They don't know CAP, don't know what CAP does, don't care about CAP -- our people, to them, are simply civilians wearing AF uniforms and they don't like it.  Mustang said, "I'd venture to guess that off the record, the AF is none too happy with the TPU, and at a loss as to what to do about it."  I would say that he is half right.  The Air Force may not like the Corporate uniform at all.  But they're not at a loss as to what to do about it, because -- according to their own regulations -- they can't do anything at all.  And they recognize that.  And I believe they just have more pressing matters to worry about and aren't all that concerned with it.  Maybe we shouldn't be all that concerned with it either.

I hope all that made sense.  I'm trying to write at 5:45 in the morning.  (Why am I up so early, anyway?)

Jack

[Pumbaa]

Good word: though you basically repeated yourself by putting the word stubborn in front

intransigency: the trait of being intransigent; stubbornly refusing to compromise


>>>>

At first I did not like the TPU... The reason I like it over the grays is basically due to the color mismatch of the gray Epi's to the pants.  At least the TPU the difference is not as no ticable.

When I wear the TPU, I wear short sleeve, my name tag, Epi's and my PAO badge, that's it...  And yeah I did shave to wear it!

I wear the grays when asked, such as the SARCOMP so the entire PAO staff was uniform in appearance. Besides I can be fuzzy again too!

RE uniforms: My only beef is we have basically 3 corporate uniforms for seniors officers. (and of course the AF blues) I would like to see it narrowed to one.  Or at least one corporate and the polo casual going to a white polo if we standardize on the TPU.  Thus we again maintain some form of uniformity.

I will not wear the AF style of the blue shirt, basically because I am not a wanna be, and I also do not like the color lack of coordination of the Epi's.

Look I was a pro photographer for 23+ years.  Color balance and aesthetics was my business.

Does my membership depend on the uniform?  Heck no!  I would just like to see the powers that be, get their heads out of their respective hind quarters and see that they need to do SOMETHING to at least bring a more uniform look.

Don't make any more changes to the uniform of choice for 2 years.  Sunset the others they are not standaridzing on within 12-18 months.

As for the cadets, leave them as is.  When the AF switches to the ABU, then perhaps moving them over to a BBDU and whatever the standard senior is.  But that is a few years off anyways.

[AlphaSigOU]

I never cared for the CAP grays. The TPU isn't that bad, though I still prefer that they brought back the old blue CAP shoulder marks to distinguish us from the Real Air Force® instead of plain blue USAF officer shoulder marks.

Considering the AF uniform is deliberately tailored and tapered so that only the 'fit to fight' can wear it off the rack, at least those of us who don't meet the weight standards do have a more military-like uniform choice. Now if they'd relent a little and allow neatly-trimmed facial hair...

[ColonelJack]

Good word: though you basically repeated yourself by putting the word stubborn in front

intransigency: the trait of being intransigent; stubbornly refusing to compromise

In other words, I was being repetitiously redundant.   

Jack

[RogueLeader]

More than once, twice even.

[Pumbaa]

CAn you repeat that again?

[arajca]

Asks the man from the Department of Redundancy Department. :angel:

[Ford73Diesel]

I will not wear the AF style of the blue shirt, basically because I am not a wanna be, and I also do not like the color lack of coordination of the Epi's.

Are you saying people who wear USAF style service dress are all wannabe's?

[mikeylikey]

^  Not all but I have met my share of wannabees!

[Ford73Diesel]

^  Not all but I have met my share of wannabees!

Same here.......

[jimmydeanno]

I don't know if this aides or hampers anyones comments, but this was an interesting conversation I had with a few (4) AF Officers (former CAP Cadets) the other day at a CAP activity...

AF OFFICERS: "Hey Jimmy, what's with the overweight guy wearing an AF uniform?"
ME: "He's not, that's the new distinctive uniform."
AF OFFICERS: "Oh really? We couldn't tell the difference."

We were standing aproximately 20 feet from this gentleman.  Now granted, there are some differences, but are they enough? 

So even on the regular blues, bringing back the 'blue & blue' do you think it is enough of a difference?

[LtCol White]

I don't know if this aides or hampers anyones comments, but this was an interesting conversation I had with a few (4) AF Officers (former CAP Cadets) the other day at a CAP activity...

AF OFFICERS: "Hey Jimmy, what's with the overweight guy wearing an AF uniform?"
ME: "He's not, that's the new distinctive uniform."
AF OFFICERS: "Oh really? We couldn't tell the difference."

We were standing aproximately 20 feet from this gentleman.  Now granted, there are some differences, but are they enough? 

So even on the regular blues, bringing back the 'blue & blue' do you think it is enough of a difference?

I think the difference is enough if the epaulets have CAP embroidered on them.

[captrncap]

AF OFFICERS: "Hey Jimmy, what's with the overweight guy wearing an AF uniform?"
ME: "He's not, that's the new distinctive uniform."
AF OFFICERS: "Oh really? We couldn't tell the difference."

At an encampment last year, I saw almost 15 CAP Lt Cols and Majs with the new white and blue combo.

I was so impressed with the support of the "Air Force" then it struck me like a truck – oh they are CAP Lt Cols and Majs.

Really, how would the Air Force know the difference?

[LtCol White]

AF OFFICERS: "Hey Jimmy, what's with the overweight guy wearing an AF uniform?"
ME: "He's not, that's the new distinctive uniform."
AF OFFICERS: "Oh really? We couldn't tell the difference."

At an encampment last year, I saw almost 15 CAP Lt Cols and Majs with the new white and blue combo.

I was so impressed with the support of the "Air Force" then it struck me like a truck – oh they are CAP Lt Cols and Majs.

Really, how would the Air Force know the difference?

This is why that uniform should have CAP on the epaulets

[captrncap]

This is why that uniform should have CAP on the epaulets

I should have added that to my statement, sorry!!

[Ford73Diesel]

AF OFFICERS: "Hey Jimmy, what's with the overweight guy wearing an AF uniform?"
ME: "He's not, that's the new distinctive uniform."
AF OFFICERS: "Oh really? We couldn't tell the difference."

At an encampment last year, I saw almost 15 CAP Lt Cols and Majs with the new white and blue combo.

I was so impressed with the support of the "Air Force" then it struck me like a truck – oh they are CAP Lt Cols and Majs.

Really, how would the Air Force know the difference?

This is why that uniform should have CAP on the epaulets

Or just switch to grey rather than have vanguard make another CAP specific item.  (Think: Where is the gore-tex insignia they promised???) Plus at 20 feet, you would'nt be able to see the CAP sewn onto it. The whole epaulet needs to be a different color.

Even I was confused at OHWG's most recent encampment, in direct sunlight it looks like an AF style uniform with AF epaulets on it.

[SarDragon]

From a distance, the CAP on my olde blue epaulets doesn't stand out all that well. I think the grey stuff works just fine.

[Eagle400]

From a distance, the CAP on my olde blue epaulets doesn't stand out all that well. I think the grey stuff works just fine.

Then how about metal CAP cutouts on the blue AF epaulets?  I would think those would stand out better.

I wish the gray epaulets were 4 or 5 shades darker to match the shade of the service dress coat.  That would look a lot better.   

[Pumbaa]

I put the CAP cutouts on the Blue Epi's for the fun of it.. Looks good... Distinctive!

[Eagle400]

I put the CAP cutouts on the Blue Epi's for the fun of it.. Looks good... Distinctive!

What's an EPI?  Never heard of that before. 

[LtCol White]

Epi = epaulet

[mikeylikey]

Does it really matter if a members looks AF or military say 20 feet away?  Anyone in the military better be smart enough to know that when this person should approach and they can then read the distinctive marks that they will realize the members is in fact Civil Air Patrol. 

It is not like a CAP officer is going to go up and lead a group of regular military men up an enemy hill.  We are distinctive enough as it is.  We could even switch to blue grade slides with the "CAP" embroidery.  NOT A BIG DEAL!

[LtCol White]

The blue epaulets worn in the past were always very distinct and easily recognizeable from a distance.

[Eagle400]

The blue epaulets worn in the past were always very distinct and easily recognizeable from a distance.

True, but I think if National were to bring back the blue epaulets, it would be more economical to take the blue AF epaulets and tack CAP cutouts on them. 

[LtCol White]

The blue epaulets worn in the past were always very distinct and easily recognizeable from a distance.

True, but I think if National were to bring back the blue epaulets, it would be more economical to take the blue AF epaulets and tack CAP cutouts on them. 

That would look crappy. They would cost the same as the gray does now. The machines are already set up and the only difference is the base material is blue instead of gray. Cost would be identical.

[Eagle400]

That sounds right, now that I think of it.  I stand corrected.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Army used to pin things to the epaulet back in the early 80's.  They used to require you to pin the Distinctive Unit Crest to the epaulet sleeve.  That was a mistake.  It would tear the epaulet up so bad you had to replace them every month or so.  They only kept that requirement up for about a year.

[Eagle400]

The Army used to pin things to the epaulet back in the early 80's.  They used to require you to pin the Distinctive Unit Crest to the epaulet sleeve.  That was a mistake.  It would tear the epaulet up so bad you had to replace them every month or so.  They only kept that requirement up for about a year.

When I was a cadet, I had to pin my grade insignia to the epaulet sleeve.  Never had a problem with it.  Were the Army epaulets made of a weaker material? 

[RogueLeader]

How often did you change pins?  Every other day for washing?

[Ford73Diesel]

How often did you change pins?  Every other day for washing?

I did not know you could wash shoulder marks. I should try it sometime....

[LtCol White]

Id do it to an old pair first. I'm not sure they are made for that

[RogueLeader]

I was talking about the shirt.

[Eclipse]

How often did you change pins?  Every other day for washing?

I did not know you could wash shoulder marks. I should try it sometime....

You really can't - they will get wrecked, and if you iron them, keep the hear away from the insignia as it takes the shine right off (experience)...