I need help with a photoshop project

[JeffDG]

The only indication that somebody is a Commander right now is the Commander's Badge.
And I don't expect anyone outside of CAP to know what that looks like.

And if Maj Gen Vasquez signs in on a mission that I'm the IC for, my IC badge trumps the two stars on his shoulders.  I'd be polite about it, but the stars to put him in charge of an incident!

[Luis R. Ramos]

A situation where junior officers commanding senior officers sounds bizarre only to those who may have served. To those of us who have not, it is not.

However even in the military when you think about the possibility there may be a pilot with the grade of Lieutenant in command of an airplane with a Radar Intercept Officer with the grade of Lieutenant Commander, the concept of a junior officer commanding a senior officer, is not so bizarre anymore.

[riffraff]

A situation where junior officers commanding senior officers sounds bizarre only to those who may have served. To those of us who have not, it is not.

However even in the military when you think about the possibility there may be a pilot with the grade of Lieutenant in command of an airplane with a Radar Intercept Officer with the grade of Lieutenant Commander, the concept of a junior officer commanding a senior officer, is not so bizarre anymore.

Big difference between what goes on within an aircraft and what the overall command structure as a whole looks like. Multi-crew aircraft have always has a mix of ranks aboard -- quite often with the example you provided. However, I can assure you that the same scenario does not play out on an organizational level.

I constantly hear reference to USAF Aux and wanting USAF ranks, USAF uniforms, same team, etc. Right up to the point where the rank topic comes up and then it's suddenly "we're different' or 'rank really doesn't matter'. If that's really the case, why are we now talking about adding an enlisted and NCO structure? On top of a dysfunctional officer rank structure?

[JeffDG]

A situation where junior officers commanding senior officers sounds bizarre only to those who may have served. To those of us who have not, it is not.

However even in the military when you think about the possibility there may be a pilot with the grade of Lieutenant in command of an airplane with a Radar Intercept Officer with the grade of Lieutenant Commander, the concept of a junior officer commanding a senior officer, is not so bizarre anymore.

Big difference between what goes on within an aircraft and what the overall command structure as a whole looks like. Multi-crew aircraft have always has a mix of ranks aboard -- quite often with the example you provided. However, I can assure you that the same scenario does not play out on an organizational level.

To use your own example, there's absolutely no reason CAP Wing CC's shouldn't hold their existent rank when assuming these roles, correct? If rank doesn't really matter, why aren't there LTC and COL's at the squadrons? Or MAJ Wing CC's? We bestow the higher ranks for the positions but, at the same time, you're saying the rank inversion shouldn't matter.

I remember shortly after she left the job as CAP/CC, Maj Gen Courter was a member of a MIWG unit commanded by a 1st Lt.

[Eclipse]

I remember shortly after she left the job as CAP/CC, Maj Gen Courter was a member of a MIWG unit commanded by a 1st Lt.

According to others on this board, that has never happened...

Ummm, cite please.  Please name the squadron with the SMWOG in command that has one or more GOs assigned.  I'll wait.

As of last check, there were at least two NCOs serving as unit CC's, and a couple of SMWOG. nothing prevents GOs, Cols, or
anyone else from joing those units and being directed by a member who has been in CAP long enough for his check to clear.

So, you got nothing besides a theoretical possibility that does not, and has never existed in the 75-year history of the organization?

Got it.

I was waiting for someone else to bring this up, it's not like it's a secret, then or now.

Maj Gen Courter is assigned to a unit in MIWG, which means that as a 2-star, she is under the direct command authority of a Major
(according to the unit's website), and a Colonel (GLR Region CC), not to mention adding another layer if MIWG has Groups.
This information is available to anyone with Google.

I used an extreme example as hyperbole to make a point about not only a theoretical possibility, but something which is actually
very common in CAP.  The response, by a former board member, was "never happens", when everyone here knows it not only has,
but does.  In fact, anyone studying the CAP grade problem needs to look at that first, before creating another class of
member that makes it worse.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of Field Grade Officers reporting to Company Grade Officers (and even non-officers)
in CAP.  It hasn't caused rioting, and because of the volunteer nature of CAP, and lack of "up or out" culture, it simply "is", but until
that situation is fixed, either organically or by regulation, any talk of "fixing CAP's grade structure" is 100% moot.

[riffraff]

Which is exactly my point. We claim to be part of USAF and are organized along the same lines (wings, squadrons, etc). We work with USAF and use their uniform and rank structure but do not utilize it in an understandable way. From an external viewpoint (meaning USAF/military) how does it look to have a major commanding a 2-star general? Or a sergeant commanding a squadron of captains?

Since many here echo that the rank is disconnected from the job, why have the rank at all? Now we want to introduce an NCO structure into the mix?

I'm sure somewhere back in the day, the officer rank was likely meant to put CAP pilots into alignment with the fact that USAF pilots are commissioned officers. How we got to where we are today? Who knows.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Again, when the military puts lieutenant pilots in command of lieutenant commanders, it does not matter in CAP.

Big difference between what goes on within an aircraft and what the overall command structure as a whole looks like.

The situation under which the model is followed does not matter.

CAP is just doing what the military does.

[Storm Chaser]

There are hundreds, if not thousands of Field Grade Officers reporting to Company Grade Officers (and even non-officers) in CAP.  It hasn't caused rioting, and because of the volunteer nature of CAP, and lack of "up or out" culture, it simply "is", but until that situation is fixed, either organically or by regulation, any talk of "fixing CAP's grade structure" is 100% moot.

It's actually worst. Many of those "Field Grade Officers reporting to Company Grade Officers" have never been commanders or served in any position beyond the squadron level.

[Spaceman3750]

If we put this much effort into solving actual problems, CAP would be a much stronger organization than it is today...

But instead we waste the effort on this, or uniforms. No wonder people complain about how much work CAP is. All of the people with the dedication and drive to actually get things done are arguing on CAPTalk about world-ending problems that nobody outside of this little circle even cares about - inside or out of the organization.

I now return you to your previously-scheduled nonsense.

[SAREXinNY]

I wish you luck with your proposal, RogueLeader.  It makes sense to me to beef up an enlisted/NCO corps.  I'd love to see a program where a majority of people start out enlisted and have to serve x number of years before applying for an officer slot.  Looking back, I would have preferred to have started out 'enlisted' for a few years to get a feel for the organization and culture.

[Ned]

I remember shortly after she left the job as CAP/CC, Maj Gen Courter was a member of a MIWG unit commanded by a 1st Lt.

According to others on this board, that has never happened...

Ummm, cite please.  Please name the squadron with the SMWOG in command that has one or more GOs assigned.  I'll wait.

Hey Bob, if you are going to quote me out of context (while leaving out your own misstatements) and in a totally different thread about Photoshop, give me a "heads up," would ya?

What you actually said was:

- in a world where SMWOGs command squadrons
and can direct the action of generals, trying to portend that being an NCO infers or confers some
special ability to mentor, guide, or lead in a volunteer paradigm simply doesn't work.

What happened was you got caught stating hyperbole as fact.  I agree that it is not uncommon for CAP officers to report to officers of lesser grade.  Which happens in the Real Military from time to time as we have discussed.  (Please don't make me repeat my story about being an Army captain commanding a unit with field grade officers assigned.  Just accept that it happens sometimes.)

What "never happened" was, of course, your specific example.  (GO's assigned to a unit commanded by a SMWOG).  Which you now seek to palm off as hyperbole.  Which is why you got called out on it.  ("Theoretical possibility that does not, and has never existed in the 75 years of CAP history.")

It is always appropriate to discuss the CAP grade system here on CAPTalk.  Based on the numbers here, it would probably be the second most discussed topic, after uniforms of course. We have been discussing it for many years.  I suppose it is the nature of internet that no one ever seems to change their mind about such things.  But we keep talking about it.  A lot.

The unique part of this particular conversation is that it erupted in the midst of a Photoshop thread.  Now I suppose I will have to check the "Electronic Flight Bag" thread to learn something new about ABUs.   

[Eclipse]

What you actually said was:

- in a world where SMWOGs command squadrons
and can direct the action of generals, trying to portend that being an NCO infers or confers some
special ability to mentor, guide, or lead in a volunteer paradigm simply doesn't work.

What happened was you got caught stating hyperbole as fact.

I actually I stated "fact" as "fact" (note the word "can") and then you chose to call that out with a "never happens" response,
when in fact, the situation, if not the per se example, happens all the time. 

Instead of patting us on the head and explaining the nature of the internet, perhaps just addressing the issue, and not the
poster or the minutia? 

[Ned]

Ahhh, I see the problem.  You are using a non-standard definition of the word "fact" to better suit your "argument."

Most dictionaries define the word "fact" to mean "Something that truly exists or happens.  Something that has actual existence."

(See, e.g., Merriam-Webster)

That possibility that something might happen is not - in fact - a "fact." It is a potentiality, possibility, or perhaps even a contingency.   

If it makes you feel better, you may focus on the word "can" and I'll focus on your use of the word "command" in "SMWOGs command squadrons [with GOs assigned]."  Which was, and is, blatantly false.  Because it has never happened.  But we agree that it is a theoretically possibility under our system.

But much more importantly than semantic discussions, it sounds like you have identified an "issue" that you'd like to have discussed. 

Please state your issue.

[Eclipse]

If it makes you feel better, you may focus on the word "can" and I'll focus on your use of the word "command" in "SMWOGs command squadrons [with GOs assigned]."  Which was, and is, blatantly false. 

Not only is it not "blatantly false", it's not what I wrote...

Comments regarding CAP's comparison to the USAF in terms of structure also fail on examination,
as grade confers no authority whatsoever - in a world where SMWOGs command squadrons
and can direct the action of generals, trying to portend that being an NCO infers or confers some
special ability to mentor, guide, or lead in a volunteer paradigm simply doesn't work.

You and Lord decided to read it with your own filter and ignore both the context and the actual sentence.

In fact:

SMWOG do command squadrons.

SMWOG can direct the actions of generals.

Nothing in the statement, sentence, or context, requires or implies "there are currently SMWOG commanding who
have generals in their unit", nor does that state need to exist in order for the point to valid.

But it's easier to pick on semantics then actually address the issue.  However In this case, the semantic dissection failed as well.

The issue?  CAP's grade structure, from an internal perspective, matches the duties it's members have just fine.
When compared externally, the comparisons fail and are irrelevant.

Until the above is addressed, any other conversations about "fixing the situation" (by making it worse) should cease.

Putting huge rims with spinners on a Buick doesn't make it "not a Buick", but it shows the world where your focus actually is.



That's the issue.

[Ned]

Bob, it's OK to say something like "I overstated my argument to make a point" or something like that.  Really.

But now that you have stated what you consider the issue to be:

The issue?  CAP's grade structure, from an internal perspective, matches the duties it's members have just fine.
When compared externally, the comparisons fail and are irrelevant.

Just to be sure, then.  Let me restate it for you.  Correct me if I am missing your point.

"CAP's grade structure is just fine for the internal audience.  But when people look at us from the outside, sometimes they get confused."

Is that what all the fuss is about?  I'd be happy to discuss it.  I just want to make sure I understand what you want to talk about.

(And maybe we should not be doing it in a Photoshop thread.)

[FW]

^ Is it a slow news day in CA...? 

[PHall]

^ Is it a slow news day in CA...? 

Why yes it is and kinda like it that way!

[JeffDG]

SMWOG do command squadrons.

"Do" implies "Present" tense.

At present I show:
436 units commanded by Majors
396 commanded by Captains
294 commanded by Lt Cols
137 commanded by 1st Lts
67 commanded by Cols
24 commanded by 2nd Lts
2 commanded by MSgts
1 each commanded by Maj Gen and Brig Gen

So, at present, there are no SMWOG's in command of units, making your statement that SMWOGs "do command squadrons" as demonstrably false.

[Storm Chaser]

2 commanded by MSgts

I thought NCOs were not allowed to be commanders. Interesting.

All squadron commanders may be advanced up to 1st Lt concurrent with their appointment. And while not automatic nor required, it's hard to imagine a member who's good enough to be a squadron commander, but not good enough to be a 1st Lt. Then again, some members do turn down promotions, so that could explain why some members may hold lesser grades and the potential for a SMWOG to command a squadron.

[Eclipse]

So, at present, there are no SMWOG's in command of units, making your statement that SMWOGs "do command squadrons" as demonstrably false.

At the time I made that statement, there were two on record, making that statement demonstrably true.

2 commanded by MSgts

This despite it being literally prohibited by regulation, which speaks volumes about how "important"
the idea of CAP NCOs staying our of command when confronted with the reality of "no one else wants the job".

You can't have it both ways from the academic perspective and expect to have any credibility in the conversation.