G/W Headgear

[DesertRat]

I realize this has been argued a lot, whether there should or shouldn't be "approved" headgear or not with G/W's. I personally wear a hat of some kind whenever I'm out of doors; and a jacket; I'm rather old-fashioned in the gentlemaning business. My question is not what should be authorized or demanded, or even if anything should be, but what DO individuals wear? I am considering a starched grey BDU style patrol cap with both B/W and the polo shirt uniform. 

[Alaric]

I wear a Wing ballcap

[Gunsotsu]

I am considering a starched grey BDU style patrol cap with both B/W and the polo shirt uniform.

And you would be wrong doing so. CAPM 39-1 is your friend.

[Garibaldi]

If I got to choose I'd opt for a fedora. No whip, though.

[DesertRat]

I like the wing ball cap with the polo, but what "fits" style-wise with the G/W? I know a lot of police forces wear ball caps with their unifroms, but it looks sloppy.

[DesertRat]

And I do have my grandfather's fedora, and I love it, but I think it wold look goofy with the uniform. Of course, I am rather goofy.

[DesertRat]

What about this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Genuine-Leather-Beret-Cap-Golf-Driving-Military-Cadet-Hat-Newsboy-Basebal/390933135924?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34862%26meid%3Ddfbaf554ef904783a038134c06ed8487%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D321815020639

[vorteks]

What about this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Genuine-Leather-Beret-Cap-Golf-Driving-Military-Cadet-Hat-Newsboy-Basebal/390933135924?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34862%26meid%3Ddfbaf554ef904783a038134c06ed8487%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D321815020639

You'd fit right in... to the Village People

[DesertRat]

I guess that's my point. What "fits" with the G/W?

[Garibaldi]

In a word, nothing. Nothing is authorized, nothing looks good, nothing works. We've had many, many ideas and none of them are appealing.

[DesertRat]

So all we have is the vague wording "civilian headgear." I think I will go to Wing with the question for guidance. If I am not mistake, where regs are vague, local command has authority.

[LSThiker]

So all we have is the vague wording "civilian headgear." I think I will go to Wing with the question for guidance. If I am not mistake, where regs are vague, local command has authority.

Not a vague wording "civilian headgear" but rather a CAP baseball cap:

4.2.5.8. Headgear. Headgear is not required with this uniform combination. However, the CAP baseball cap may be worn. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. Appropriate civilian headgear may be worn during inclement weather.

[Alaric]

I like the wing ball cap with the polo, but what "fits" style-wise with the G/W? I know a lot of police forces wear ball caps with their unifroms, but it looks sloppy.

I don't where a hat with my G/W unless its cold in which case I wear a black knit watch cap.

[DesertRat]

And what do we do when Wing has neither directed this or, by practice, allowed many interpretations? I see lots of persons here on CAPTalk being very hard line about interpretations, but in practice, not so much. I have seen one NCO, who was a CPO in the Navy, in the "Polo uniform" but having the Navy's digital camo eight-point cover, carrying his Navy rank. it was at a major wing-level training and evaluation. I saw ball caps with rank pins. Should we newbies be hard nosed? Should we adopt command's attitude?

[vorteks]

And what do we do when Wing has neither directed this or, by practice, allowed many interpretations? I see lots of persons here on CAPTalk being very hard line about interpretations, but in practice, not so much. I have seen one NCO, who was a CPO in the Navy, in the "Polo uniform" but having the Navy's digital camo eight-point cover, carrying his Navy rank. it was at a major wing-level training and evaluation. I saw ball caps with rank pins. Should we newbies be hard nosed? Should we adopt command's attitude?

What I'm hearing is "other people aren't following the rules, so why should I?" Follow the regulations to the best of your ability and set a good example.

[lordmonar]

And what do we do when Wing has neither directed this or, by practice, allowed many interpretations? I see lots of persons here on CAPTalk being very hard line about interpretations, but in practice, not so much. I have seen one NCO, who was a CPO in the Navy, in the "Polo uniform" but having the Navy's digital camo eight-point cover, carrying his Navy rank. it was at a major wing-level training and evaluation. I saw ball caps with rank pins. Should we newbies be hard nosed? Should we adopt command's attitude?

What I'm hearing is "other people aren't following the rules, so why should I?" Follow the regulations to the best of your ability and set a good example.

And challenge your peers and question your superiors who violate the rules.

A quick....."hey Capt Soandso......you know the regulations say 'civilian hats' with the polo shirt.   You are setting a bad example for the Noobs and the Cadets."

Simple, Polite, Direct.

If you feel really strong about it.....take it up the chain of command and let them deal with it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

WIWICAP, I never owned the polo shirt so cannot comment.

I always thought the West Point garrison cap would have looked good with the G/W (if anything can look good with that), but CAP would have had to get Army permission, and it's doubtful the AF would have allowed it, given General Courter's dictum that the G/W is to be specifically non-military.



If any of you have seen the West Point "Class B" uniform...well, the reg about not being confused with any other service falls flat on that one.  I even think these Cadets are wearing grey shoulder marks.

[vorteks]

He's baaaaaaaaack....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

He's baaaaaaaaack....

Sporadically.  I'm honestly trying to find ways to rejoin without having to affiliate with my former unit, or any squadron for the moment without going "patron."

[Checotah]

While there is much talk about trying to maintain some degree of uniformity within the uniform combinations, the G/W combination suffers from defined outerwear that would do that.  Headgear is a part of that; so, too, are jackets and/or coats. 

This was very apparent in December when our unit was laying Wreaths Across America in rather inclement weather.  Those of us in the G/W combination could not be identified as CAP, other than visible pants (and we all know that issue).  Between raincoats and rain headgear, there was absolutely no distinguishment or recognition, much less uniformity.

I know this subject has been discussed ad nauseam and I'm not trying to restart it.  Just wanted to add my voice to those wishing we would come up with something.

[DesertRat]

"Wishing we could come up with something" sounds about right to me too. And regardless of the wording, the G/W is a military style, "Class B" uniform, and should be completed with headgear that is appropriate. Saying that it isn't military while wearing grade, ribbons, wings, etc is just silly. Has there been an actual request for the grey West Point cap to be approved?

[JeffDG]

"Wishing we could come up with something" sounds about right to me too. And regardless of the wording, the G/W is a military style, "Class B" uniform, and should be completed with headgear that is appropriate. Saying that it isn't military while wearing grade, ribbons, wings, etc is just silly. Has there been an actual request for the grey West Point cap to be approved?

Unknown.

Note for the record that the CAP Command Council will be meeting next Friday and Saturday.  That means almost all the Wing and Region Commanders, along with NHQ leadership, will be in one place.

Although the final agenda for that meeting has been published already, still can't hurt to socialize an idea.

The CAP Senior Advisory Group meets in April as well.

[LegacyAirman]

I think something like this would be both stylish and practical!
http://www.keepshooting.com/swiss-wool-overseas-cap.html

[DesertRat]

Would anyone else be willing to make the request to Wing CO's for a grey flight cap to be approved? If several of us did, it might be part of their conversation this weekend.

[AlphaSigOU]

You can try submitting a proposal via channels to the NUC, but the equine has been beaten to death over 'proper' headgear proposals to wear with the corporate grays. Put it simply, ain't gonna happen.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My experience WIWICAP is that CAP wants the "corporate" uniforms to remain in a perpetual grey (pun intended) area...that they are "military" enough to allow quasi-military styling, including the (since 1995) wearing of rank shoulder marks and CAP badging, but once the bloody horrible looking blazer is put on over it, it is too "civilian" to warrant any kind of headgear, excepting the undefined "CAP baseball cap."

I think the best that can be hoped for is to get the NUC to make a hard-and-fast definition of a "CAP baseball cap."

As it stands now, semantically, one can go and buy any sort of baseball cap (as long as it does not have "scrambled eggs" on the peak), stick a CAP patch/pin (as long as it is one not specifically forbidden by regs) on it and hey, presto, instant "CAP baseball cap."


$4.49 on EvilBay


Obsolete CAP patch, $12.00 on EvilBay

[lordmonar]

The concept of the G/W uniform has always been a low cost uniform for those who can't or don't want to wear the USAF uniform.

It is by design simple.   No coat, no over coat, no standardized pants, no single source shirt, no hat......simple.

Grey pants, white aviator shirt, name tag and rank.......whit t-shirt, black belt, black socks, black shoes (which everyone should already have).

While I can understand your need to have more "military"......CAP's position and the USAF's position is not to make it less military......just to make it cheap and simple with out adding a lot of dood dads and raising costs.

[Damron]

I have a history of skin cancer so there was never a question whether I'd wear a hat with my polo and aviator shirt uniforms.   I wear a black baseball cap with the aviator uniform, a blue cap with the polo, both with a squadron patch. 

Baseball caps are cheap as hell and available most everywhere.  Mine cost five bucks each at my local Dollar General.  There's merit to keeping it cheap and easy. 

[DesertRat]

Sometimes I am very impressed with CAP, sometimes I think we couldn't find a burning 747 at a municipal airfield.......

[Spaceman3750]

Sometimes I am very impressed with CAP, sometimes I think we couldn't find a burning 747 at a municipal airfield.......

So what are you doing to help fix the problem?

[Holding Pattern]

Sometimes I am very impressed with CAP, sometimes I think we couldn't find a burning 747 at a municipal airfield.......

So what are you doing to help fix the problem?

He's burning 747s in municipal airfields, of course!

One day we'll find that airfield.

One day...

[almostspaatz]

Sometimes I am very impressed with CAP, sometimes I think we couldn't find a burning 747 at a municipal airfield.......

So what are you doing to help fix the problem?

He's burning 747s in municipal airfields, of course!

One day we'll find that airfield.

One day...

:clap: :clap:

[NC Wing Range Master]

What about this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Genuine-Leather-Beret-Cap-Golf-Driving-Military-Cadet-Hat-Newsboy-Basebal/390933135924?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34862%26meid%3Ddfbaf554ef904783a038134c06ed8487%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D321815020639

NOPE...NO NO NO.....then you would look like a member of the Village People.

[Mitchell 1969]

The concept of the G/W uniform has always been a low cost uniform for those who can't or don't want to wear the USAF uniform.

It is by design simple.   No coat, no over coat, no standardized pants, no single source shirt, no hat......simple.

Grey pants, white aviator shirt, name tag and rank.......whit t-shirt, black belt, black socks, black shoes (which everyone should already have).

While I can understand your need to have more "military"......CAP's position and the USAF's position is not to make it less military......just to make it cheap and simple with out adding a lot of dood dads and raising costs.

How many CAP members choose G/W over blues because of cost? (My guess is ...very few). Meanwhile, it's already established that people are willing to shell out money for the blue uniform. In fact, given squadron supply, thrift stores, eBay etc blues might even cost less.

When the weight trstriction was imposed by USAF, CAP could have said "Lioks like half (?) of our members can't wear blues. We need to come up with a CAP specific uniform for all of us." Instead, it was more like "USAF says that half (?) of our members can't wear blues. Sucks to be them, but the rest need to stay in blues to more closely identify with USAF than with fellow CAP members."

But, be that as it may, it doesn't seem to be changing. But all the G/W people are looking for is a hat or cap to make the uniform complete, without resorting to a baseball cap option that ranges from undefined to goofy looking and everything in between.

For crying out loud, the blue flight cap and/or service cap would do it. The trousers alone are enough to say "not USAF." Failing that, there are plenty of vendors that could supply caps in grey and let the polo uniform serve as the inexpensive option.

[lordmonar]

Feel free to communicate via the chain of command to the NUC with your suggestions.

I'm just passing on the notes I took from the last three uniform meetings I sat in with NUC at the National Conventions when this very question was asked.

[LSThiker]

How many CAP members choose G/W over blues because of cost? (My guess is ...very few). Meanwhile, it's already established that people are willing to shell out money for the blue uniform. In fact, given squadron supply, thrift stores, eBay etc blues might even cost less.

I actually know a large number of SMs that wear the grey uniform because it is cheaper and easier to get and maintain than the USAF-style uniform.  In fact, the only reason why I continue to wear the USAF-style uniform is because I got it for free as a cadet (although as a cadet I did purchase a service coat and a new pair of pants).  The only item in which I have purchased as a SM are the SM-specific insignia and the officer flight cap as my BDUs were also from when I was a cadet (except the boots).  Now that my uniform is beginning to fade, I wear the corporate uniform more because it is cheaper and easier to replace among other things.  In the next few years, I am sure I will be wearing just the corporate uniform even though I can still wear the USAF-style uniform. 

[Checotah]

As I understand it, the G/W and Blazer combinations are to provide a quasi-professional appearance for more businesslike functions, while making some attempt at maintaining some degree of uniformity and corporate ID.  They do that, to some degree, when indoors.  However, when outdoors, as previously mentioned, especially in inclement weather which some of us have more than half of the year, those objectives fail without organization hat and coat.

As to the ball cap, that fails the professional look immediately when worn with long sleeve shirt and tie.  I think it actually downgrades the image.  Before someone suggests foregoing headgear, that isn't an option for some of us follicly challenged and skin cancer prone old folks.

As to costs, when I decided upon facial hair, and my wife actually liked it, I turned in all my AF style uniform parts, all of which had been purchased new on bases, complete with tailoring.  I had a whole lot more invested in all of those than I will ever have in corporate versions.

[DesertRat]

It is exactly the unfinished, undefined look that I dislike about the ball cap with the G/W. And there are vendors who could supply grey flight cap style hats; alternately they are one of the easiest things to sew up and pdf patterns exist on the net readily. (You could even by fabric to *gasp* match your pants!!!.) I am going to send a request to my Squadron CO, and Wing CO that this question be opened. If others do so this week, we might get it at least talked about informally at this weekend's meeting.

[abdsp51]

I am going to send a request to my Squadron CO, and Wing CO that this question be opened. If others do so this week, we might get it at least talked about informally at this weekend's meeting.

Follow the format in 39-1 and you shouldn't have an issue other than anyone in the chain squashing it. 

[LSThiker]

Before someone suggests foregoing headgear, that isn't an option for some of us follicly challenged and skin cancer prone old folks.

To be fair, neither does a flight cap.  A flight cap protects little of the head and none of the face, neck, or ears.  Granted, it protects more of the head than "nothing" but it is not exactly much.  A full cap (e.g. service cap, baseball cap, PC) protects more than a flight cap but still does not protect the neck and ears and only protects part of the face.   

[jeders]

Before someone suggests foregoing headgear, that isn't an option for some of us follicly challenged and skin cancer prone old folks.

To be fair, neither does a flight cap.  A flight cap protects little of the head and none of the face, neck, or ears.  Granted, it protects more of the head than "nothing" but it is not exactly much.  A full cap (e.g. service cap, baseball cap, PC) protects more than a flight cap but still does not protect the neck and ears and only protects part of the face.   

That's why one of my older members wears a large sun hat when he goes outside in the G/W or polo.

[THRAWN]

Before someone suggests foregoing headgear, that isn't an option for some of us follicly challenged and skin cancer prone old folks.

To be fair, neither does a flight cap.  A flight cap protects little of the head and none of the face, neck, or ears.  Granted, it protects more of the head than "nothing" but it is not exactly much.  A full cap (e.g. service cap, baseball cap, PC) protects more than a flight cap but still does not protect the neck and ears and only protects part of the face.   

That's why one of my older members wears a large sun hat when he goes outside in the G/W or polo.

Older? I'm 42, just had a skin cancer episode, and wear a wide brimmed hat. Stetsons work well...

[DesertRat]

I operate in the high desert of NM. The sun is brutal above 6000 feet.  On a bright, sunny day "civilian headgear during inclement weather" take the form of a boonie hat.

[THRAWN]

Just out of curiosity, why is everybody spending so much time outside in the G/Ws? Do you not have access to utility uniforms? Do you ride bikes to meetings/activities? Is it a long hike from your squadron to your car? Do you have outdoor meetings?

[Checotah]

To be fair, neither does a flight cap.  A flight cap protects little of the head and none of the face, neck, or ears.  Granted, it protects more of the head than "nothing" but it is not exactly much.  A full cap (e.g. service cap, baseball cap, PC) protects more than a flight cap but still does not protect the neck and ears and only protects part of the face.   

True, however, a flight or service cap could preserve some degree of uniformity and organizational identity without the mixed message of a ball cap. 

[Checotah]

Just out of curiosity, why is everybody spending so much time outside in the G/Ws? Do you not have access to utility uniforms? Do you ride bikes to meetings/activities? Is it a long hike from your squadron to your car? Do you have outdoor meetings?

Our unit often participates in ceremonial venues, such as color guard in parades, airport events, veterans' recognitions, burials at the local National Cemetery, and, of course, Wreaths Across America.  Most of these are more properly performed in the G/W uniform rather than utility uniform.   Certainly, these are not the majority of times one would wear the uniform, but they do happen from time to time.

[Spaceman3750]

Just out of curiosity, why is everybody spending so much time outside in the G/Ws? Do you not have access to utility uniforms? Do you ride bikes to meetings/activities? Is it a long hike from your squadron to your car? Do you have outdoor meetings?

Our unit often participates in ceremonial venues, such as color guard in parades, airport events, veterans' recognitions, burials at the local National Cemetery, and, of course, Wreaths Across America.  Most of these are more properly performed in the G/W uniform rather than utility uniform.   Certainly, these are not the majority of times one would wear the uniform, but they do happen from time to time.

Other than WAA, which is a fundraiser and therefore requires the corporate uniform for seniors, why are those better performed in G/W vs. blues? While they may not happen every day, on the surface those do seem to be about 90% of the average squadron's "outside-the-squadron" activities.

[Chappie]

To be fair, neither does a flight cap.  A flight cap protects little of the head and none of the face, neck, or ears.  Granted, it protects more of the head than "nothing" but it is not exactly much.  A full cap (e.g. service cap, baseball cap, PC) protects more than a flight cap but still does not protect the neck and ears and only protects part of the face.   

True, however, a flight or service cap could preserve some degree of uniformity and organizational identity without the mixed message of a ball cap.

A flight or service cap is part of the USAF-style uniform and not part of the Corporate/Distinctive uniform.  The mixing of those two is a "no-no".  One of my pet peeves is seeing someone wear either the USAF-style uniform or BDU belt on the gray trousers.   To have a flight or service cap similar to the American Legion or Veterans of Foreign Wars would simply be cost prohibitive.  My understanding is that an underlying principle that guides the decision of the Uniform Committee is the cost of uniforms/accessories for the membership.   Here is a Knowledge Base answer to the difference between the two uniforms:  http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2019/kw/mixing%20uniforms/session/L3RpbWUvMTQ1NjI1OTMxNy9zaWQvcFhvLTFRSm0%3D

[Checotah]

A flight or service cap is part of the USAF-style uniform and not part of the Corporate/Distinctive uniform.  The mixing of those two is a "no-no".

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

[LTC Don]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

[abdsp51]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

Sir,

Need or want?  The manual already says a CAP specific ball cap may be worn. 

[THRAWN]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

Sir,

Need or want?  The manual already says a CAP specific ball cap may be worn.

Exactly. This is an easy fix. Want a hat? Open the book and follow the rules. What's next?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

Sir,

Need or want?  The manual already says a CAP specific ball cap may be worn.

It does not specify what a "CAP specific ball cap" is.

[THRAWN]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

Sir,

Need or want?  The manual already says a CAP specific ball cap may be worn.

It does not specify what a "CAP specific ball cap" is.

Sure it does. Check 6.2.9 in 39-1. And it says nothing about a "CAP specific ball cap". It says "CAP baseball cap".

[vorteks]

In most places it says "The CAP Baseball cap." The "the" suggests a specific thing, yet nowhere is one defined.

[THRAWN]

In most places it says "The CAP Baseball cap." The "the" suggests a specific thing, yet nowhere is one defined.

Sure it is. In the places in the manual that state CAP baseball cap and are linked, it arrives here:

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation,
and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems
(clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

Seems pretty simple. A black baseball cap fits. So does a red cap with the unit number embroidered on it. So does a green cap with a squadron patch on it. Check within your wing or region to see if there is a 39-1 supplement with specifics on the cap. If not, follow the rules in the book. Don't over think this. It ain't rocket surgery....

[Luis R. Ramos]

Bu-bu-but, but by that explanation you just gave us, we are back in the non-uniform uniform debate!?!!!

[N6RVT]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

My squadron has several pictures from long ago where the blue flight & service caps are being worn with the shade 1050 Khakis and it looks fine.  We currently wear the blue flight cap with the sage green flight suit and those don't match either.  The USAF blue tie is specified as what is worn with the long sleeve aviator shirt according to current regs.  There is no need for a different hat, we could use what we currently have.

[LTC Don]

I fully agree.  I did not mean to suggest that the USAF flight or service cap be worn with the Corporate uniform.  I simply meant that such an animal, in grey, perhaps, if approved, could be a useful item.  If authorized as an optional item, no additional costs need be incurred except as the member chooses.  Similarly, the USAF service cap can be either purchased or obtained through supply channels (comment for cost impact only).

The existing blue flight or service cap should be fine with the grey/white corporate uniform, and since many members already have at least the flight cap, there a savings there.  It worked well with the old CSU and would work fine now.  The need for headgear with the grey/whites is readily apparent.

My squadron has several pictures from long ago where the blue flight & service caps are being worn with the shade 1050 Khakis and it looks fine.  We currently wear the blue flight cap with the sage green flight suit and those don't match either.  The USAF blue tie is specified as what is worn with the long sleeve aviator shirt according to current regs.  There is no need for a different hat, we could use what we currently have.

I'm not wearing a baseball cap with my white long-sleeve aviator shirt with tie along with ribbons/bling.  We need, and have needed a more appropriate hat than the 'baseball cap'.  In this respect, the not-so-old CSU uniform had it right.

[vorteks]

In most places it says "The CAP Baseball cap." The "the" suggests a specific thing, yet nowhere is one defined.

Sure it is. In the places in the manual that state CAP baseball cap and are linked, it arrives here:

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation,
and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems
(clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

Seems pretty simple. A black baseball cap fits. So does a red cap with the unit number embroidered on it. So does a green cap with a squadron patch on it. Check within your wing or region to see if there is a 39-1 supplement with specifics on the cap. If not, follow the rules in the book. Don't over think this. It ain't rocket surgery....

Exactly, there is no "The CAP baseball cap."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In most places it says "The CAP Baseball cap." The "the" suggests a specific thing, yet nowhere is one defined.

Sure it is. In the places in the manual that state CAP baseball cap and are linked, it arrives here:

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation,
and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems
(clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

Seems pretty simple. A black baseball cap fits. So does a red cap with the unit number embroidered on it. So does a green cap with a squadron patch on it. Check within your wing or region to see if there is a 39-1 supplement with specifics on the cap. If not, follow the rules in the book. Don't over think this. It ain't rocket surgery....

Exactly, there is no "The CAP baseball cap."

There was no consensus in any of my units (except those who were authorised Squadron baseball caps, which still looked goofy with what is supposed to be a "Class B" type uniform) on what a "CAP baseball cap" meant.  Many insisted it was those sold by Vanguard.

However, 39-1 does not say that, and never said it about baseball caps sold by CAPMart, the Bookstore, etc.

If one were to get a baseball cap of any colour, and affix a non-prohibited CAP insignia of some kind - even obsolete collar dogs with the "C.A.P." lettering - that would be, by definition, a CAP Baseball Cap.  Even the old "Pepsi" patch stitched on a baseball cap would qualify as "a CAP baseball cap."

[Storm Chaser]

There's no nationally authorized or prescribed CAP baseball cap per se. A CAP baseball cap is any baseball cap authorized by the wing or region commander, who can prescribe the color, unit designation, and emblem of the baseball IAW CAPM 39-1. While the terminology used in CAPM 39-1 is a bit confusing, Para. 6.2.9 provides the definition of what the CAP baseball cap is and who can approve it.

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems (clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

[JeffDG]

There's no nationally authorized or prescribed CAP baseball cap per se. A CAP baseball cap is any baseball cap authorized by the wing or region commander, who can prescribe the color, unit designation, and emblem of the baseball IAW CAPM 39-1. While the terminology used in CAPM 39-1 is a bit confusing, Para. 6.2.9 provides the definition of what the CAP baseball cap is and who can approve it.

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems (clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

If a neither wing nor region has no CAPM 39-1 supplement, then is it your position that no cap may be worn?  (not snark, seeking genuine clarification)

[Storm Chaser]

There's no nationally authorized or prescribed CAP baseball cap per se. A CAP baseball cap is any baseball cap authorized by the wing or region commander, who can prescribe the color, unit designation, and emblem of the baseball IAW CAPM 39-1. While the terminology used in CAPM 39-1 is a bit confusing, Para. 6.2.9 provides the definition of what the CAP baseball cap is and who can approve it.

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems (clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

If a neither wing nor region has no CAPM 39-1 supplement, then is it your position that no cap may be worn?  (not snark, seeking genuine clarification)

I never said that. My position is that according to CAPM 39-1, Para. 6.2.9, the CAP baseball cap is a baseball cap authorized by the wing or region commander within the scope and restrictions prescribed in CAPM 39-1.

While supplements to CAPM 39-1 are authorized at the wing and region levels, CAPM 39-1 does not specifically require a supplement for wing or region commanders to authorize the color, unit designation, or emblem of these baseball caps, although some wings or regions may choose to do it that way. Others may authorize a unit or activity baseball cap through other means.

[RogueLeader]

There's no nationally authorized or prescribed CAP baseball cap per se. A CAP baseball cap is any baseball cap authorized by the wing or region commander, who can prescribe the color, unit designation, and emblem of the baseball IAW CAPM 39-1. While the terminology used in CAPM 39-1 is a bit confusing, Para. 6.2.9 provides the definition of what the CAP baseball cap is and who can approve it.

6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems (clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

If a neither wing nor region has no CAPM 39-1 supplement, then is it your position that no cap may be worn?  (not snark, seeking genuine clarification)

I never said that. My position is that according to CAPM 39-1, Para. 6.2.9, the CAP baseball cap is a baseball cap authorized by the wing or region commander within the scope and restrictions prescribed in CAPM 39-1.

While supplements to CAPM 39-1 are authorized at the wing and region levels, CAPM 39-1 does not specifically require a supplement for wing or region commanders to authorize the color, unit designation, or emblem of these baseball caps, although some wings or regions may choose to do it that way. Others may authorize a unit or activity baseball cap through other means.

How else would you regulatory allow them for wear, if not in a supplement?  Regular orders don't cut it the standard of 39-1.

[lordmonar]

Hmmmmmmm......no.

If the wing commander says "sure wear that hat"....that's all I need.

[JeffDG]

Hmmmmmmm......no.

If the wing commander says "sure wear that hat"....that's all I need.

I would concur with that.

CAPM 39-1 is pretty good about saying that certain things (like Blue Berets for other-than-NBB-graduates) may only be authorized by supplement.  This regulation on hats says nothing about requiring a supplement.

[Checotah]

.... those who were authorised Squadron baseball caps, which still looked goofy with what is supposed to be a "Class B" type uniform...

That's one of my points about needing some kind of headgear for the G/W.  When wearing a shirt and tie, a ball cap of any type just doesn't fit.  It's like wearing a ball cap with a suit or sportscoat, shirt and tie.  Only people I see wearing something like that are sports coaches.

[Mitchell 1969]

.... those who were authorised Squadron baseball caps, which still looked goofy with what is supposed to be a "Class B" type uniform...

That's one of my points about needing some kind of headgear for the G/W.  When wearing a shirt and tie, a ball cap of any type just doesn't fit.  It's like wearing a ball cap with a suit or sportscoat, shirt and tie.  Only people I see wearing something like that are sports coaches.

I found another.

My pest control guy came by the other day. Khaki trousers, white shirt with pocket flaps and epaulets, and baseball cap. Reminderd me a lot of this topic.

[N6RVT]

.... those who were authorised Squadron baseball caps, which still looked goofy with what is supposed to be a "Class B" type uniform...

That's one of my points about needing some kind of headgear for the G/W.  When wearing a shirt and tie, a ball cap of any type just doesn't fit.  It's like wearing a ball cap with a suit or sportscoat, shirt and tie.  Only people I see wearing something like that are sports coaches.

And people who want to make America great again.

[PHall]

.... those who were authorised Squadron baseball caps, which still looked goofy with what is supposed to be a "Class B" type uniform...

That's one of my points about needing some kind of headgear for the G/W.  When wearing a shirt and tie, a ball cap of any type just doesn't fit.  It's like wearing a ball cap with a suit or sportscoat, shirt and tie.  Only people I see wearing something like that are sports coaches.

And people who want to make America great again.

I consider America to be great right now. Don't believe me? Try leaving the country for awhile.