Senior Member uniform question..

[SARDOC]

Ah, the Attachment is part of the manual which makes it directive. Pamphlets are "infomational".

Pamphlets and attachments are both informational.  Some Pamphlets are adopted by reference in the regulations giving them the power of regulation.  ie, Specialty Track pamphlets.

Because it's against the regs, and the attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.
By your logic, a senior should be able to wear every milestone and achievement, etc.

The bad for Cadet Recruiter is significantly lower than for senior, that's the first clue you have to start over.

As stated, the recruit numbers as a cadet, as added to those as a Senior, but if you just earned a single ribbon as
a cadet, you're only 1/3 of the way towards the senior one the day you go "Dark Side".

Snipped for brevity

Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.
[/i]

No, you are correct.  The Attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.  They are there to help organize and provide supporting elements within the regulation.  If the purpose of the Attachment isn't referenced in the regulation than it is indeed just superfluous fluff.  Even in the Attachment itself there are no directions on how the information in that reference are to be utilized.  People are just hypothesizing because "that's the way we've always done it" mentality.

The Purpose of the Regulation according to CAPR 5-4 is to announce policies, direct actions and prescribe standards.  In this case there is no casual action when a member changes status. So I can agree that there doesn't appear there is any requirement to remove cadet achievement and Milestone awards.  There are notes that ribbon attachments can be altered and moved to the highest Milestone/ Achievement award, which may indicate the intent that only the highest Milestone/Achievement Award be worn. 

Cadet Milestone/Achievement awards are in a completely different category than the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon which is classified as a Service award and not a Milestone/Achievement award.

As far as the "Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets."  First, Someone call the Grammar Police.  Second, I conclude from that statement that the Recruited members as a cadet MAY be counted towards the total when calculating a Senior Recruiter Ribbon.  There is no requirement in that statement, and there is no provision that means it must be moved when the membership status changes. So not really pertinent to the discussion.

[Eclipse]

When an attachment or other resource is referenced in the regulation itself, by the regulation,
as a resource, it becomes as regulatory as the respective reg itself.  The whole point of attachments
is to provide further detail for situations which are subject to change or update relatively often,
or need to be provided in a format different from the reg verbiage for ease of access.

Case in point - 52-16 now refers the reader to the national website for a number of curriculum requirements,
not the least of which is encampments.  That doesn't mean there's no requirements just because
they aren't in the document.  That doesn't even make logical sense, let alone regulatory sense.

The spirit and intent of this issue (not to mention practice for decades):
Cadet decorations are removed upon transition to senior member, except for those decorations which
are not specifically awarded to cadets-only, and the single highest cadet achievement.
In this case, a cadet can only earn the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon.
He cannot earn the Senior Recruiter Ribbon, they have different criteria, including membership status and
the number of new members he's responsible for.  A cadet with 7 recruits is wearing three attachments, a senior,
none.

Trying to make hay on anything else just won't fly.

[lordmonar]

If in doubt.....ask your chain of command.

It is practice in my unit....to carry over the cadet recruiting ribbon.  If this is wrong...no one (in my chain of command) has notified us of the error.

(P.S.....just checked Knowldege Base.....absolutely zero help!)

[Eclipse]

^ I see it as explicit guidance, but I didn't quote it directly because I didn't want that conversation, too:

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/970/kw/cadet%20recruiter%20ribbon


Seniors wearing ribbons earned as a cadet
Published 06/19/2003 12:43 PM   |    Updated 02/07/2012 01:33 PM      |    Answer ID: 970
Section A, Paragraph 3a. of CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates states, "If cadet ribbons are worn by senior members, only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn". However, for example, an Encampment ribbon earned as a Cadet can still be worn when a Senior. I earned the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon when I was a Cadet. Can I continue to wear this ribbon now as a Senior member?


The wording "only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn" refers to cadet program milestone awards (Curry through Spaatz). There are a number of ribbons earned as a cadet that seniors may continue to wear. These are covered in various paragraphs and attachments of  CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 7 February 2012 .  Also see national board/NEC minutes for approval of other cadet ribbons seniors may continue to wear.

Specifically for recruiter ribbons, there are different criteria for ribbons for cadets and seniors. Specific rules are covered in Paragraph 21k of CAPR 39-3(see below). Seniors who were former cadets may count the recruits they recruited as a cadet to qualify for the senior ribbon.

Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[lordmonar]

So....does that mean that the EX cadet with two recruits continues to wear the cadet recruiting ribbon until he recruits five more and then switches over?

Again.....THERE is no reason to have two differnt ribbons....and this is a major reason why!
One set of rules.....keep is simple!

[Eclipse]

So....does that mean that the EX cadet with two recruits continues to wear the cadet recruiting ribbon until he recruits five more and then switches over?

No, it means he removes the ribbon until he gets 5 more.

Again.....THERE is no reason to have two differnt ribbons....and this is a major reason why!
One set of rules.....keep is simple!

Agreed.

[caphornbuckle]

On this subject.....why do we a)have two ribbons? b)Why do we scale up the standard once the basic ribbon has been awarded? c)Why did they pick 7 as the goal for the basic ribbon for seniors?

I think this has to do with how long a cadet remains a cadet compared to how long seniors are in CAP.  Cadets are only cadets for a few years and have less of a chance of recruiting members in that time span.  Seniors can be seniors for 60+ years and can recruit throughout that period to earn the ribbon.

[SARDOC]

So....does that mean that the EX cadet with two recruits continues to wear the cadet recruiting ribbon until he recruits five more and then switches over?

Again.....THERE is no reason to have two differnt ribbons....and this is a major reason why!
One set of rules.....keep is simple!

This was my thinking exactly.  I understand the thinking is that Cadet Program ribbons not be worn by senior members but my issue is the Cadet Recruiter ribbon is classified in the regulation as a service ribbon for which there is no provision to remove it.  I'm okay with it being replaced when superseded by a Senior Recruiter Ribbon.

The recruiter ribbon should really only have one category.  I'm thinking it was in an effort to provide the Cadets some more bling as an incentive to bring their friends in.

[Eclipse]

I have to go with the bling idea with a little of the longevity idea sprinkled on top.

Considering that cadets all have an expiration date, and recruiting their friends helps retention, that makes sense.

[lordmonar]

I know why we offer ribbons.....and I agree with it.

I don't understand why a Senior has to work harder to get the basic ribbon then the cadet does. 

Recruiting by seniors is just as important as recruiting by cadets.......so why 7 vice 2?  They both get their devices at 10...so from that point they are in line.

If two is the target number.....make it the target number......and eliminate one of the ribbons. 

[Eclipse]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

[lordmonar]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

That is my feeling as well.  Especially adults with the skills we need to make our programs work.

[Cool Mace]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

But do seniors have to recruit other seniors to get the ribbon, or does recruiting cadets count as well?

[RogueLeader]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

But do seniors have to recruit other seniors to get the ribbon, or does recruiting cadets count as well?

Both count.

[PhotogPilot]

I've been in CAP since 1993 (just after we got blue shoulder marks and hard rank taken from us) and I have never seen anyone in CAP wearing hard rank on a flight cap.

I was visiting in the TXWG about six years ago and that unit was wearing actual hard rank on their flight cap. Of course in my travels in CAP I have seen Senior Members with polo shirts and flight caps too.   

Six years ago seem about right, for brief window when hard rank on the flight cap was part of the ill-fated CSU. I had it on mine till Ma-Blue put the kibosh on it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Six years ago seem about right, for brief window when hard rank on the flight cap was part of the ill-fated CSU. I had it on mine till Ma-Blue put the kibosh on it.

I hadn't thought of the CSU, since when I wore mine the rank on the flight cap was already disallowed.

[NorCal21]

Well, I figured as my first post I'd wade into the deep in....

I think everyone has gotten a bit weighed down in their reply to a reply to a reply. I started out reading this thread from the very first all the way through to the last post. I think you guys are having a problem of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Now, having looked at Attachment 2 I'm a little confused. Attachment does nothing more than list the current ribbons/medals for the cadet and senior member programs as well as service awards. I see no mention of any change to a regulation in the attachment save the small box in the middle of page 2 that informs seniors how to wear their ribbons when updated to match the new chart.

I read mention of interpretation a few times. Clearly that's what's going on, but I'm confused as to why. Interpreting a statement such as "Congress shall make no law..." makes sense. There's actually words there that someone could interpret. Again, other than the small box on page 2, there's absolutely no wording anywhere for someone to interpret. I'm at a loss as to where someone is getting anything in this attachment that would infer or imply any change to to 39-1 concerning migration of cadet ribbons to senior wear.

I've always found issues like these odd in my job, in CAP or when I was in the military. Regulations say exactly what they say. There's no interpretation. If something is left out, or not addressed, than that's what you have... an unaddressed issue with not regulation to clarify. Anyone using Attachment 2 to support their position concerning anything other than what ribbons are currently awarded in each program has no basis. That's not to say they don't have a good opinion, but there's simply nothing in Attachment 2 to support just about any comment I've read in this thread promoting any limitation of wear from cadet to senior program.

[NorCal21]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong.

First, the word "authorized" is not used anywhere in Attachment 2.

Second, other than the small box of text in the middle of page 2, there's no wording or sentences that are present to be be interpreted one way or another anyway.

Therefore, any reading of Attachment 2 to imply a senior member cannot wear a cadet recruiting ribbon as a senior is incorrect. Now, you may be correct based on the original 39-1, but there's no supporting information in this attachment for that opinion.

So, my question is what phrase, sentence or wording exactly are you using to support a lack of "authorization" for this ribbon question?

[Майор Хаткевич]

The "Cadet" part of the title?

The fact that there is a SM one as well, with different requirements?

[Noble Six]

?