Senior Member uniform question..

[SarDragon]

From 39-3:
21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons.
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[SARDOC]

The cadet recruiter ribbon can't be worn as a senior.  It gets converted to the senior recruiter ribbon if the member recruited enough folks.

Cadet recruiter requires 2 recruits.  The senior requires 7. 

From 39-3:
21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons.
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

You must be a Cadet when awarded the cadet recruiter ribbon as is SARDRAGON's snip from the reg.  There is no provision in the Reg for the removal of the ribbon when changing membership status.  If this member never recruits another member he is still entitled to the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon if earned while he was a cadet.  If he earned a "Find" ribbon as a cadet he doesn't lose it when he becomes a Senior member...because they are both service awards.  Although it has "Cadet" in the title it's not to be confused as a Cadet Achievement award of which the former cadet could only wear one.

[ßτε]

The cadet recruiter ribbon can't be worn as a senior.  It gets converted to the senior recruiter ribbon if the member recruited enough folks.

Cadet recruiter requires 2 recruits.  The senior requires 7. 

From 39-3:
21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons.
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

You must be a Cadet when awarded the cadet recruiter ribbon as is SARDRAGON's snip from the reg.  There is no provision in the Reg for the removal of the ribbon when changing membership status.  If this member never recruits another member he is still entitled to the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon if earned while he was a cadet.  If he earned a "Find" ribbon as a cadet he doesn't lose it when he becomes a Senior member...because they are both service awards.  Although it has "Cadet" in the title it's not to be confused as a Cadet Achievement award of which the former cadet could only wear one.

The reason the Find ribbon can continue to be warn when a cadet becomes a senior member has nothing to do with it being a service award. (Actually, all these are activity awards, not service awards, but the distinction doesn't change things.) The Find ribbon is authorized to be awarded to and worn by both cadets and senior members. It is listed in both parts of attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3. This attachment lists the ribbons authorized authorized for wear by each cadets and senior members. The list for senior members does not include the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon. The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

[SARDOC]

The reason the Find ribbon can continue to be warn when a cadet becomes a senior member has nothing to do with it being a service award. (Actually, all these are activity awards, not service awards, but the distinction doesn't change things.) The Find ribbon is authorized to be awarded to and worn by both cadets and senior members. It is listed in both parts of attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3. This attachment lists the ribbons authorized authorized for wear by each cadets and senior members. The list for senior members does not include the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon. The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

I understand the Sentiment because that is the common assumption that is made.  Nowhere in the ACTUAL regulation itself does it say that the only ribbons authorized for members are found in Attachment 2.  Matter of Fact, Attachment 2 is not adopted by reference in the regulation at all.  The other attachments are all described in the regulation except for this one.  Attachments are not necessarily part of the regulation.  That is why they are called "Attachments".  Attachments are informational only.  In this case because of the associated subtitles in Attachment 2 the assumption is made that these are the only ribbons authorized for wear.  Even though it doesn't cite that either in the Regulation or the attachment.

[SARDOC]

The reason the Find ribbon can continue to be warn when a cadet becomes a senior member has nothing to do with it being a service award. (Actually, all these are activity awards, not service awards, but the distinction doesn't change things.) The Find ribbon is authorized to be awarded to and worn by both cadets and senior members. It is listed in both parts of attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3. This attachment lists the ribbons authorized authorized for wear by each cadets and senior members. The list for senior members does not include the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon. The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

Attachment 2 lists both the "Find" and the "Cadet Recruiter" Ribbons as Activity awards.  However in the ACTUAL regulation they are indeed classified as Service ribbons.  So which is wrong?  The Regulation or the Attachment?

I'm betting when there is an inconsistency that the Regulation wins over the Attachment.

[SarDragon]

Neither list set (CAPR 39-3 and CAPM 39-1) shows a crossover of the cadet ribbon to the senior side.

Based on a careful  reading of both documents, it appears that wear of the cadet ribbon on the SM uniform is not intended. Members recruited as a cadet may be carried over to the SM count, as pointed out above.

Other possible crossover situations are specifically addressed, ribbon by ribbon - CAC, IACE, NCSA, encampment, among others.

YMMV.

[BrannG]

umm.. hey.. I think I already answered this. I was simply testing the bloody signature image creator !! I already fixed it with the ribbons I used to have, please note that everything shown on my signature image is BEFORE I BECAME INACTIVE.

How did this become about what ribbons I have on my signature.. :| I'm pretty darn sure I have to start from scratch anyway in CAP once National gets all the paperwork and dues.

[RogueLeader]

Not always. If you have documentation of previous awards, you are allowed to wear them.

[SarDragon]

umm.. hey.. I think I already answered this. I was simply testing the bloody signature image creator !! I already fixed it with the ribbons I used to have, please note that everything shown on my signature image is BEFORE I BECAME INACTIVE.

How did this become about what ribbons I have on my signature.. :| I'm pretty darn sure I have to start from scratch anyway in CAP once National gets all the paperwork and dues.

Mild smart-assery - since Reply #12.

Seriously, it was just some constructive feedback for when you actually get to wear ribbons again. I had a 6 year lapse in membership back in the '80s, but managed to validate all my all my awards by paper and electronic means.

[CAP_truth]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

[BrannG]

umm.. hey.. I think I already answered this. I was simply testing the bloody signature image creator !! I already fixed it with the ribbons I used to have, please note that everything shown on my signature image is BEFORE I BECAME INACTIVE.

How did this become about what ribbons I have on my signature.. :| I'm pretty darn sure I have to start from scratch anyway in CAP once National gets all the paperwork and dues.

Mild smart-assery - since Reply #12.

Seriously, it was just some constructive feedback for when you actually get to wear ribbons again. I had a 6 year lapse in membership back in the '80s, but managed to validate all my all my awards by paper and electronic means.

Well, thank you for the "constructive feed back" I just know how a topic can become a viral argument over something quicker than [mess] on here. lol It was good to know I can try to get all the work I did before back, but I was only a butter bar, so no biggie. Granted, I became said butter bar after years and years of being a cadet.. lol Rank and ribbons however never interested me so much as the duty itself. Now when I was AD, sure rank meant better pay! BRING IT! lol

[Eclipse]

Depending on what you accomplished as a cadet, that work may not be worth some senior equivalence.

[BrannG]

Amen there. lol

[SARDOC]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

Attachments are for informational purposes only.  Nowhere does it say these are the only ribbons authorized for those groups.  That is just a common assumption made by the reader which isn't found anywhere actually in the regulation.  Attachment 2 is not referenced in the Regulation at all so it is just a guide, not a rule.  There are inconsistancies between attachment 2 and the regulation, so which takes precedence.  I'm guessing the actual regulation over rules the attachment.  Which has no provision for removing any service ribbons. 

I'm okay with if he earns the senior recruiter ribbon that it would replace the cadet ribbon...even though that's not required by the regulation either.

[SARDOC]

Sorry for taking this thread to the entire Cadet Ribbon thing.  I believe that the regulation has some problems but people make assumptions based on how they think it's supposed to be done, or their interpretation of what they think the regulation means.  I don't take it personally...I don't wear a Cadet recruiter ribbon myself having never been a cadet.  However, I don't think his service award earned as a cadet should be removed just because he becomes a senior member.

I have had a lot of experience with writing and interpretation of regulations, codes, etc...not making me an expert, but our policies leave a lot to be desired and I feel if the writers meant for the cadet recruiter ribbon not to be worn by a senior member it should be more specific.  There is nothing in the regulation that calls for the removal of a service ribbon. 

Why should he remove something he earned?  Thanks

[PHall]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

Attachments are for informational purposes only.  Nowhere does it say these are the only ribbons authorized for those groups.  That is just a common assumption made by the reader which isn't found anywhere actually in the regulation.  Attachment 2 is not referenced in the Regulation at all so it is just a guide, not a rule.  There are inconsistancies between attachment 2 and the regulation, so which takes precedence.  I'm guessing the actual regulation over rules the attachment.  Which has no provision for removing any service ribbons. 

I'm okay with if he earns the senior recruiter ribbon that it would replace the cadet ribbon...even though that's not required by the regulation either.

Ah, the Attachment is part of the manual which makes it directive. Pamphlets are "infomational".

[Eclipse]

Why should he remove something he earned?  Thanks

Because it's against the regs, and the attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.
By your logic, a senior should be able to wear every milestone and achievement, etc.

The bad for Cadet Recruiter is significantly lower than for senior, that's the first clue you have to start over.

As stated, the recruit numbers as a cadet, as added to those as a Senior, but if you just earned a single ribbon as
a cadet, you're only 1/3 of the way towards the senior one the day you go "Dark Side".

CAPR 39-3 Feb 2012
Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.

(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[SarDragon]

I see here a difference in interpretations - one loose, one tight - each based on the interpreter's ideas on how things should work.

I try for a common sense approach, on the tight side. In this case, it appears pretty clear that crossover is not intended, since all the other situations, where ribbons earned as a cadet may be worn on the SM uniform, are well covered.

Again, YMMV.

[lordmonar]

Why should he remove something he earned?  Thanks

Because it's against the regs, and the attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.
By your logic, a senior should be able to wear every milestone and achievement, etc.

No....it specifically says that the highest cadet acheivment/milestone can be worn by seniors.

The bad for Cadet Recruiter is significantly lower than for senior, that's the first clue you have to start over.

If they were the same ribbon you MAY.....MAY have a point. 

As stated, the recruit numbers as a cadet, as added to those as a Senior, but if you just earned a single ribbon as
a cadet, you're only 1/3 of the way towards the senior one the day you go "Dark Side".

CAPR 39-3 Feb 2012
Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.

(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

On this subject.....why do we a)have two ribbons? b)Why do we scale up the standard once the basic ribbon has been awarded? c)Why did they pick 7 as the goal for the basic ribbon for seniors?

Pesonally.....I think we just need to have "the recruiting ribbon".  Give the basic ribbon when the member recruits his first recruit (no family recruiting....i.e. a cadet can't recruit his parents or vice versa)...and you have to have the Curry or Level I....so no enmass (we all joined together and recruited each other BS).  Then award a device as say 5 additional.  So.....we get instant recognition for recruiting....and we also have a way of recognising long term recruiting.    Also.....suggestion that you can earn the ribbon for working a certain number of hours at "recruiting events"....say 40 hours or 60 hours.  That way we can recognise those who work the booth at the airshow, the mall, or school visits....even if they don't actually get a recruit or the recruit does not remember the name of "the guy at the mall" who made the contact and sold the program.

a) This eliminates a ribbon from the total number possible.
b) It makes no difference between a cadet or a senior member recruiting.
c) Eliminates this "you can't wear that" argument.
d) Balances out between the "personal" recruiting efforts...i.e. a guy brining his freinds/family/coworkers in to the program and those who "walk the streets" to sell the program to the general public.

[Eclipse]

I don't disagree with your idea, but your post is all tore up...