Senior Member uniform question..

[BrannG]

Okay, so it has been a long while since I wore the CAP variants on the AF Uniform. I am awaiting National to process my paperwork and once that happens I'll be proud to wear the AF Blues to CAP standards, but I have some questions since it has been a very long time.

1st off -> When I was last in CAP, we wore wing patches on our left shoulder... am I correct that this was dropped? I still see wing patches on uniforms when I google CAP uniforms, so I wasn't sure.

2nd -> I know I can't wear my ABUs Not an issue, but I will say I look forward to when I can convert one of my ABUs for CAP. Till then, on the BDU I understand we can now wear squadron patches on the right pocket? Am I correct or mistaken?

And lastly.. -> Sadly I think I read that we can wear metal rank on our hats anymore.. This is a sad day! (I hate the [darn] overly large officer's hat device on the blues hat) Please tell me this isn't true!

Thank you for your input! I keep getting different views and I think I found several memorandums to the 39-1 so its all just.. yea.. lol Can't wait till they update the 39-1, it is dire need for a revamp!

RM - your input is NOT required. Thank you.

[abdsp51]

No on the wing patches for the blues uniform. I have always worn a sq patch on my bdus ajd its allowed but check your wg to see if they have a sup fot 39-1.  Metal grade to the best of my knowledge is not authorised unless it is on the blue bdu.

[BrannG]

what about wing patch for BDU?

Thanks for the reply abdsp51!

[Eclipse]

All above are correct.

Metal grade has not been worn on the flight cap for at least 15+ years, probably more than 20.

what about wing patch for BDU?

Optional in most states.  Left shoulder is worn.
A recent ICL opens up the left shoulder to other optional patches if the wing patch is not mandatory.

[BrannG]

All above are correct.

Metal grade has not been worn on the flight cap for at least 15+ years, probably more than 20.

what about wing patch for BDU?

Optional in most states.  Left shoulder is worn.
A recent ICL opens up the left shoulder to other optional patches if the wing patch is not mandatory.

Awesome. Questions answered! Yea.. the metal rank thing on the flight cap shows my age.. lol

[spacecommand]

And lastly.. -> Sadly I think I read that we can wear metal rank on our hats anymore.. This is a sad day! (I hate the [darn] overly large officer's hat device on the blues hat) Please tell me this isn't true!

I assume you mean "we CAN'T wear metal rank any more on our hats".  This is correct when it comes to the air force flight cap. 
Also if you mean the large hat device that goes with the service cover (aka bus driver hat), that is a different larger device than the one that goes on the  flight cap.  The device on the flight cap is much smaller, the size is slightly larger than a quarter.

Current regulations only allow metal grade insignia on the blue bdu cap only.  For your regular BDU cap, regs now require cloth insignia. 

[ßτε]

All above are correct.

Metal grade has not been worn on the flight cap for at least 15+ years, probably more than 20.

what about wing patch for BDU?

Optional in most states.  Left shoulder is worn.
A recent ICL opens up the left shoulder to other optional patches if the wing patch is not mandatory.

Awesome. Questions answered! Yea.. the metal rank thing on the flight cap shows my age.. lol

That is odd. Senior members have not worn grade insignia on the flight cap with the AF-style uniform in your lifetime.

[BrannG]

I left CAP in 2000, and we used to wear metal grade on the flight cap and bdu cap as senior members all the time in my wing. It was nice to just look and see how to address someone vs have to look for the top of the gray shoulders. BDUs were easier, just look at the collar, but yea.. then going active, we still wear metal rank on our hats all the time.

[Eclipse]

I left CAP in 2000, and we used to wear metal grade on the flight cap and bdu cap as senior members all the time in my wing.

We can't argue what your wing might have been doing, but by 2000 metal grade was loooong gone from being authorized.

[BrannG]

No argument needed! Just wanted to make sure I was reading it right. Thank you all for the help! Fly safe!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

1st off -> When I was last in CAP, we wore wing patches on our left shoulder... am I correct that this was dropped? I still see wing patches on uniforms when I google CAP uniforms, so I wasn't sure.

Correct, and thank God for small favours.  Trying to get wing patches to look good on the AF blue shirt was a nightmare.

2nd -> I know I can't wear my ABUs Not an issue, but I will say I look forward to when I can convert one of my ABUs for CAP. Till then, on the BDU I understand we can now wear squadron patches on the right pocket? Am I correct or mistaken?

Correct, if so authorised by squadron/wing brass.

And lastly.. -> Sadly I think I read that we can wear metal rank on our hats anymore.. This is a sad day! (I hate the [darn] overly large officer's hat device on the blues hat) Please tell me this isn't true!

Partially correct.  We can wear hard rank on the BBDU cap only.  This is one of the great conundrums of CAP uniform (il)logic.  Hard rank is anathema everywhere else for us (including all other BBDU items) but on the BBDU cap.

Thank you for your input! I keep getting different views and I think I found several memorandums to the 39-1 so its all just.. yea.. lol Can't wait till they update the 39-1, it is dire need for a revamp!

Wake me if that ever happens, beyond multitudes of ICL's that contradict each other and have Texas-sized loopholes of logic in them.

I left CAP in 2000, and we used to wear metal grade on the flight cap and bdu cap as senior members all the time in my wing. It was nice to just look and see how to address someone vs have to look for the top of the gray shoulders. BDUs were easier, just look at the collar, but yea.. then going active, we still wear metal rank on our hats all the time.

?

I've been in CAP since 1993 (just after we got blue shoulder marks and hard rank taken from us) and I have never seen anyone in CAP wearing hard rank on a flight cap.

An early version of the Corporate Service Uniform (which was taken from us without explanation in 2010) had hard rank on the left side of the flight cap but that was removed at the behest of the USAF.

[PA Guy]

Hard grade insignia for seniors hasn't been authorized on the flight cap for at least 40 yrs. We could wear it on fatigue covers but it went away about the time BDUs came in IRRC.  What wing authorized hard grade on flt caps for seniors?

[MIKE]

Noticed your ribbons in your sig.  Senior members don't wear the Cadet Recruiter ribbon.  You'll have to remove it until you have enough recruits for the senior ribbon.  See CAPR 39-3.  Also, your highest cadet achievement/award ribbon is missing.

[Private Investigator]

I've been in CAP since 1993 (just after we got blue shoulder marks and hard rank taken from us) and I have never seen anyone in CAP wearing hard rank on a flight cap.

I was visiting in the TXWG about six years ago and that unit was wearing actual hard rank on their flight cap. Of course in my travels in CAP I have seen Senior Members with polo shirts and flight caps too.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I was visiting in the TXWG about six years ago and that unit was wearing actual hard rank on their flight cap. Of course in my travels in CAP I have seen Senior Members with polo shirts and flight caps too.   

I have never seen that, but back when the Smurf suit was still authorised, I saw flight caps with that quite frequently.  Of course, I don't remember the regs at that time, but that could have been an authorised combo.

[BrannG]

At the moment, I don't wear anything except the polo, as I am not yet back in CAP. Waiting on financial stuff at the moment, so I will NOT wear the AF uniform at all till I am authorized to do so. So no worries about the ribbons on my sig, I was just trying out the sigs and didn't really pay much attention. I think I changed that like 10 times when I got it up here.

Anyway, thank you all for the answers to my overly basic question. Like I said, just wanted to be clear. As for the hard rank on the flight cap - like I said, it was something we did in TXWG when I was -last- in CAP, granted, that was a long time ago, but who knows. It would be nice to have our hard rank on our flight cap, as it would be clean looking as well as easy to ID a senior officer to yourself. But alas, regs are regs. We can wish to see something all we like, doesn't mean it will happen I'm happy to follow the regs without issue or question.

Thanks again and have a great day! #salute

[EMT-83]

If you're not a member, why would you be wearing the polo? It's just as much a uniform as any other.

[BrannG]

as I agree with that, the squadron commander of the unit I am looking to join gave me a polo. I have no issues however wearing CAP shirts and polos - I'm proud of CAP and I wear them same as I wear my AF shirts and polos.

[SARDOC]

Noticed your ribbons in your sig.  Senior members don't wear the Cadet Recruiter ribbon.  You'll have to remove it until you have enough recruits for the senior ribbon.  See CAPR 39-3.  Also, your highest cadet achievement/award ribbon is missing.

If he earned the Ribbon when he was a Cadet, he is entitled to wear it.  It is in the service ribbon category and they are permanent awards regardless of their membership category, same as Air Search and Rescue, Red Service, Find ribbon among others.  There is no provision to remove a service ribbon based on membership category. 

[jimmydeanno]

Noticed your ribbons in your sig.  Senior members don't wear the Cadet Recruiter ribbon.  You'll have to remove it until you have enough recruits for the senior ribbon.  See CAPR 39-3.  Also, your highest cadet achievement/award ribbon is missing.

If he earned the Ribbon when he was a Cadet, he is entitled to wear it.  It is in the service ribbon category and they are permanent awards regardless of their membership category, same as Air Search and Rescue, Red Service, Find ribbon among others.  There is no provision to remove a service ribbon based on membership category.

The cadet recruiter ribbon can't be worn as a senior.  It gets converted to the senior recruiter ribbon if the member recruited enough folks.

Cadet recruiter requires 2 recruits.  The senior requires 7. 

[SarDragon]

From 39-3:
21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons.
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[SARDOC]

The cadet recruiter ribbon can't be worn as a senior.  It gets converted to the senior recruiter ribbon if the member recruited enough folks.

Cadet recruiter requires 2 recruits.  The senior requires 7. 

From 39-3:
21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons.
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

You must be a Cadet when awarded the cadet recruiter ribbon as is SARDRAGON's snip from the reg.  There is no provision in the Reg for the removal of the ribbon when changing membership status.  If this member never recruits another member he is still entitled to the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon if earned while he was a cadet.  If he earned a "Find" ribbon as a cadet he doesn't lose it when he becomes a Senior member...because they are both service awards.  Although it has "Cadet" in the title it's not to be confused as a Cadet Achievement award of which the former cadet could only wear one.

[ßτε]

The cadet recruiter ribbon can't be worn as a senior.  It gets converted to the senior recruiter ribbon if the member recruited enough folks.

Cadet recruiter requires 2 recruits.  The senior requires 7. 

From 39-3:
21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons.
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

You must be a Cadet when awarded the cadet recruiter ribbon as is SARDRAGON's snip from the reg.  There is no provision in the Reg for the removal of the ribbon when changing membership status.  If this member never recruits another member he is still entitled to the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon if earned while he was a cadet.  If he earned a "Find" ribbon as a cadet he doesn't lose it when he becomes a Senior member...because they are both service awards.  Although it has "Cadet" in the title it's not to be confused as a Cadet Achievement award of which the former cadet could only wear one.

The reason the Find ribbon can continue to be warn when a cadet becomes a senior member has nothing to do with it being a service award. (Actually, all these are activity awards, not service awards, but the distinction doesn't change things.) The Find ribbon is authorized to be awarded to and worn by both cadets and senior members. It is listed in both parts of attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3. This attachment lists the ribbons authorized authorized for wear by each cadets and senior members. The list for senior members does not include the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon. The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

[SARDOC]

The reason the Find ribbon can continue to be warn when a cadet becomes a senior member has nothing to do with it being a service award. (Actually, all these are activity awards, not service awards, but the distinction doesn't change things.) The Find ribbon is authorized to be awarded to and worn by both cadets and senior members. It is listed in both parts of attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3. This attachment lists the ribbons authorized authorized for wear by each cadets and senior members. The list for senior members does not include the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon. The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

I understand the Sentiment because that is the common assumption that is made.  Nowhere in the ACTUAL regulation itself does it say that the only ribbons authorized for members are found in Attachment 2.  Matter of Fact, Attachment 2 is not adopted by reference in the regulation at all.  The other attachments are all described in the regulation except for this one.  Attachments are not necessarily part of the regulation.  That is why they are called "Attachments".  Attachments are informational only.  In this case because of the associated subtitles in Attachment 2 the assumption is made that these are the only ribbons authorized for wear.  Even though it doesn't cite that either in the Regulation or the attachment.

[SARDOC]

The reason the Find ribbon can continue to be warn when a cadet becomes a senior member has nothing to do with it being a service award. (Actually, all these are activity awards, not service awards, but the distinction doesn't change things.) The Find ribbon is authorized to be awarded to and worn by both cadets and senior members. It is listed in both parts of attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3. This attachment lists the ribbons authorized authorized for wear by each cadets and senior members. The list for senior members does not include the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon. The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

Attachment 2 lists both the "Find" and the "Cadet Recruiter" Ribbons as Activity awards.  However in the ACTUAL regulation they are indeed classified as Service ribbons.  So which is wrong?  The Regulation or the Attachment?

I'm betting when there is an inconsistency that the Regulation wins over the Attachment.

[SarDragon]

Neither list set (CAPR 39-3 and CAPM 39-1) shows a crossover of the cadet ribbon to the senior side.

Based on a careful  reading of both documents, it appears that wear of the cadet ribbon on the SM uniform is not intended. Members recruited as a cadet may be carried over to the SM count, as pointed out above.

Other possible crossover situations are specifically addressed, ribbon by ribbon - CAC, IACE, NCSA, encampment, among others.

YMMV.

[BrannG]

umm.. hey.. I think I already answered this. I was simply testing the bloody signature image creator !! I already fixed it with the ribbons I used to have, please note that everything shown on my signature image is BEFORE I BECAME INACTIVE.

How did this become about what ribbons I have on my signature.. :| I'm pretty darn sure I have to start from scratch anyway in CAP once National gets all the paperwork and dues.

[RogueLeader]

Not always. If you have documentation of previous awards, you are allowed to wear them.

[SarDragon]

umm.. hey.. I think I already answered this. I was simply testing the bloody signature image creator !! I already fixed it with the ribbons I used to have, please note that everything shown on my signature image is BEFORE I BECAME INACTIVE.

How did this become about what ribbons I have on my signature.. :| I'm pretty darn sure I have to start from scratch anyway in CAP once National gets all the paperwork and dues.

Mild smart-assery - since Reply #12.

Seriously, it was just some constructive feedback for when you actually get to wear ribbons again. I had a 6 year lapse in membership back in the '80s, but managed to validate all my all my awards by paper and electronic means.

[CAP_truth]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

[BrannG]

umm.. hey.. I think I already answered this. I was simply testing the bloody signature image creator !! I already fixed it with the ribbons I used to have, please note that everything shown on my signature image is BEFORE I BECAME INACTIVE.

How did this become about what ribbons I have on my signature.. :| I'm pretty darn sure I have to start from scratch anyway in CAP once National gets all the paperwork and dues.

Mild smart-assery - since Reply #12.

Seriously, it was just some constructive feedback for when you actually get to wear ribbons again. I had a 6 year lapse in membership back in the '80s, but managed to validate all my all my awards by paper and electronic means.

Well, thank you for the "constructive feed back" I just know how a topic can become a viral argument over something quicker than [mess] on here. lol It was good to know I can try to get all the work I did before back, but I was only a butter bar, so no biggie. Granted, I became said butter bar after years and years of being a cadet.. lol Rank and ribbons however never interested me so much as the duty itself. Now when I was AD, sure rank meant better pay! BRING IT! lol

[Eclipse]

Depending on what you accomplished as a cadet, that work may not be worth some senior equivalence.

[BrannG]

Amen there. lol

[SARDOC]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

Attachments are for informational purposes only.  Nowhere does it say these are the only ribbons authorized for those groups.  That is just a common assumption made by the reader which isn't found anywhere actually in the regulation.  Attachment 2 is not referenced in the Regulation at all so it is just a guide, not a rule.  There are inconsistancies between attachment 2 and the regulation, so which takes precedence.  I'm guessing the actual regulation over rules the attachment.  Which has no provision for removing any service ribbons. 

I'm okay with if he earns the senior recruiter ribbon that it would replace the cadet ribbon...even though that's not required by the regulation either.

[SARDOC]

Sorry for taking this thread to the entire Cadet Ribbon thing.  I believe that the regulation has some problems but people make assumptions based on how they think it's supposed to be done, or their interpretation of what they think the regulation means.  I don't take it personally...I don't wear a Cadet recruiter ribbon myself having never been a cadet.  However, I don't think his service award earned as a cadet should be removed just because he becomes a senior member.

I have had a lot of experience with writing and interpretation of regulations, codes, etc...not making me an expert, but our policies leave a lot to be desired and I feel if the writers meant for the cadet recruiter ribbon not to be worn by a senior member it should be more specific.  There is nothing in the regulation that calls for the removal of a service ribbon. 

Why should he remove something he earned?  Thanks

[PHall]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

Attachments are for informational purposes only.  Nowhere does it say these are the only ribbons authorized for those groups.  That is just a common assumption made by the reader which isn't found anywhere actually in the regulation.  Attachment 2 is not referenced in the Regulation at all so it is just a guide, not a rule.  There are inconsistancies between attachment 2 and the regulation, so which takes precedence.  I'm guessing the actual regulation over rules the attachment.  Which has no provision for removing any service ribbons. 

I'm okay with if he earns the senior recruiter ribbon that it would replace the cadet ribbon...even though that's not required by the regulation either.

Ah, the Attachment is part of the manual which makes it directive. Pamphlets are "infomational".

[Eclipse]

Why should he remove something he earned?  Thanks

Because it's against the regs, and the attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.
By your logic, a senior should be able to wear every milestone and achievement, etc.

The bad for Cadet Recruiter is significantly lower than for senior, that's the first clue you have to start over.

As stated, the recruit numbers as a cadet, as added to those as a Senior, but if you just earned a single ribbon as
a cadet, you're only 1/3 of the way towards the senior one the day you go "Dark Side".

CAPR 39-3 Feb 2012
Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.

(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[SarDragon]

I see here a difference in interpretations - one loose, one tight - each based on the interpreter's ideas on how things should work.

I try for a common sense approach, on the tight side. In this case, it appears pretty clear that crossover is not intended, since all the other situations, where ribbons earned as a cadet may be worn on the SM uniform, are well covered.

Again, YMMV.

[lordmonar]

Why should he remove something he earned?  Thanks

Because it's against the regs, and the attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.
By your logic, a senior should be able to wear every milestone and achievement, etc.

No....it specifically says that the highest cadet acheivment/milestone can be worn by seniors.

The bad for Cadet Recruiter is significantly lower than for senior, that's the first clue you have to start over.

If they were the same ribbon you MAY.....MAY have a point. 

As stated, the recruit numbers as a cadet, as added to those as a Senior, but if you just earned a single ribbon as
a cadet, you're only 1/3 of the way towards the senior one the day you go "Dark Side".

CAPR 39-3 Feb 2012
Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.

(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

On this subject.....why do we a)have two ribbons? b)Why do we scale up the standard once the basic ribbon has been awarded? c)Why did they pick 7 as the goal for the basic ribbon for seniors?

Pesonally.....I think we just need to have "the recruiting ribbon".  Give the basic ribbon when the member recruits his first recruit (no family recruiting....i.e. a cadet can't recruit his parents or vice versa)...and you have to have the Curry or Level I....so no enmass (we all joined together and recruited each other BS).  Then award a device as say 5 additional.  So.....we get instant recognition for recruiting....and we also have a way of recognising long term recruiting.    Also.....suggestion that you can earn the ribbon for working a certain number of hours at "recruiting events"....say 40 hours or 60 hours.  That way we can recognise those who work the booth at the airshow, the mall, or school visits....even if they don't actually get a recruit or the recruit does not remember the name of "the guy at the mall" who made the contact and sold the program.

a) This eliminates a ribbon from the total number possible.
b) It makes no difference between a cadet or a senior member recruiting.
c) Eliminates this "you can't wear that" argument.
d) Balances out between the "personal" recruiting efforts...i.e. a guy brining his freinds/family/coworkers in to the program and those who "walk the streets" to sell the program to the general public.

[Eclipse]

I don't disagree with your idea, but your post is all tore up...

[SARDOC]

Ah, the Attachment is part of the manual which makes it directive. Pamphlets are "infomational".

Pamphlets and attachments are both informational.  Some Pamphlets are adopted by reference in the regulations giving them the power of regulation.  ie, Specialty Track pamphlets.

Because it's against the regs, and the attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.
By your logic, a senior should be able to wear every milestone and achievement, etc.

The bad for Cadet Recruiter is significantly lower than for senior, that's the first clue you have to start over.

As stated, the recruit numbers as a cadet, as added to those as a Senior, but if you just earned a single ribbon as
a cadet, you're only 1/3 of the way towards the senior one the day you go "Dark Side".

Snipped for brevity

Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.
[/i]

No, you are correct.  The Attachments aren't just there to make the book heavier.  They are there to help organize and provide supporting elements within the regulation.  If the purpose of the Attachment isn't referenced in the regulation than it is indeed just superfluous fluff.  Even in the Attachment itself there are no directions on how the information in that reference are to be utilized.  People are just hypothesizing because "that's the way we've always done it" mentality.

The Purpose of the Regulation according to CAPR 5-4 is to announce policies, direct actions and prescribe standards.  In this case there is no casual action when a member changes status. So I can agree that there doesn't appear there is any requirement to remove cadet achievement and Milestone awards.  There are notes that ribbon attachments can be altered and moved to the highest Milestone/ Achievement award, which may indicate the intent that only the highest Milestone/Achievement Award be worn. 

Cadet Milestone/Achievement awards are in a completely different category than the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon which is classified as a Service award and not a Milestone/Achievement award.

As far as the "Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets."  First, Someone call the Grammar Police.  Second, I conclude from that statement that the Recruited members as a cadet MAY be counted towards the total when calculating a Senior Recruiter Ribbon.  There is no requirement in that statement, and there is no provision that means it must be moved when the membership status changes. So not really pertinent to the discussion.

[Eclipse]

When an attachment or other resource is referenced in the regulation itself, by the regulation,
as a resource, it becomes as regulatory as the respective reg itself.  The whole point of attachments
is to provide further detail for situations which are subject to change or update relatively often,
or need to be provided in a format different from the reg verbiage for ease of access.

Case in point - 52-16 now refers the reader to the national website for a number of curriculum requirements,
not the least of which is encampments.  That doesn't mean there's no requirements just because
they aren't in the document.  That doesn't even make logical sense, let alone regulatory sense.

The spirit and intent of this issue (not to mention practice for decades):
Cadet decorations are removed upon transition to senior member, except for those decorations which
are not specifically awarded to cadets-only, and the single highest cadet achievement.
In this case, a cadet can only earn the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon.
He cannot earn the Senior Recruiter Ribbon, they have different criteria, including membership status and
the number of new members he's responsible for.  A cadet with 7 recruits is wearing three attachments, a senior,
none.

Trying to make hay on anything else just won't fly.

[lordmonar]

If in doubt.....ask your chain of command.

It is practice in my unit....to carry over the cadet recruiting ribbon.  If this is wrong...no one (in my chain of command) has notified us of the error.

(P.S.....just checked Knowldege Base.....absolutely zero help!)

[Eclipse]

^ I see it as explicit guidance, but I didn't quote it directly because I didn't want that conversation, too:

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/970/kw/cadet%20recruiter%20ribbon


Seniors wearing ribbons earned as a cadet
Published 06/19/2003 12:43 PM   |    Updated 02/07/2012 01:33 PM      |    Answer ID: 970
Section A, Paragraph 3a. of CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates states, "If cadet ribbons are worn by senior members, only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn". However, for example, an Encampment ribbon earned as a Cadet can still be worn when a Senior. I earned the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon when I was a Cadet. Can I continue to wear this ribbon now as a Senior member?


The wording "only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn" refers to cadet program milestone awards (Curry through Spaatz). There are a number of ribbons earned as a cadet that seniors may continue to wear. These are covered in various paragraphs and attachments of  CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 7 February 2012 .  Also see national board/NEC minutes for approval of other cadet ribbons seniors may continue to wear.

Specifically for recruiter ribbons, there are different criteria for ribbons for cadets and seniors. Specific rules are covered in Paragraph 21k of CAPR 39-3(see below). Seniors who were former cadets may count the recruits they recruited as a cadet to qualify for the senior ribbon.

Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[lordmonar]

So....does that mean that the EX cadet with two recruits continues to wear the cadet recruiting ribbon until he recruits five more and then switches over?

Again.....THERE is no reason to have two differnt ribbons....and this is a major reason why!
One set of rules.....keep is simple!

[Eclipse]

So....does that mean that the EX cadet with two recruits continues to wear the cadet recruiting ribbon until he recruits five more and then switches over?

No, it means he removes the ribbon until he gets 5 more.

Again.....THERE is no reason to have two differnt ribbons....and this is a major reason why!
One set of rules.....keep is simple!

Agreed.

[caphornbuckle]

On this subject.....why do we a)have two ribbons? b)Why do we scale up the standard once the basic ribbon has been awarded? c)Why did they pick 7 as the goal for the basic ribbon for seniors?

I think this has to do with how long a cadet remains a cadet compared to how long seniors are in CAP.  Cadets are only cadets for a few years and have less of a chance of recruiting members in that time span.  Seniors can be seniors for 60+ years and can recruit throughout that period to earn the ribbon.

[SARDOC]

So....does that mean that the EX cadet with two recruits continues to wear the cadet recruiting ribbon until he recruits five more and then switches over?

Again.....THERE is no reason to have two differnt ribbons....and this is a major reason why!
One set of rules.....keep is simple!

This was my thinking exactly.  I understand the thinking is that Cadet Program ribbons not be worn by senior members but my issue is the Cadet Recruiter ribbon is classified in the regulation as a service ribbon for which there is no provision to remove it.  I'm okay with it being replaced when superseded by a Senior Recruiter Ribbon.

The recruiter ribbon should really only have one category.  I'm thinking it was in an effort to provide the Cadets some more bling as an incentive to bring their friends in.

[Eclipse]

I have to go with the bling idea with a little of the longevity idea sprinkled on top.

Considering that cadets all have an expiration date, and recruiting their friends helps retention, that makes sense.

[lordmonar]

I know why we offer ribbons.....and I agree with it.

I don't understand why a Senior has to work harder to get the basic ribbon then the cadet does. 

Recruiting by seniors is just as important as recruiting by cadets.......so why 7 vice 2?  They both get their devices at 10...so from that point they are in line.

If two is the target number.....make it the target number......and eliminate one of the ribbons. 

[Eclipse]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

[lordmonar]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

That is my feeling as well.  Especially adults with the skills we need to make our programs work.

[Cool Mace]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

But do seniors have to recruit other seniors to get the ribbon, or does recruiting cadets count as well?

[RogueLeader]

If anything I'd say it's more difficult to recruit adults than adolescents.

But do seniors have to recruit other seniors to get the ribbon, or does recruiting cadets count as well?

Both count.

[PhotogPilot]

I've been in CAP since 1993 (just after we got blue shoulder marks and hard rank taken from us) and I have never seen anyone in CAP wearing hard rank on a flight cap.

I was visiting in the TXWG about six years ago and that unit was wearing actual hard rank on their flight cap. Of course in my travels in CAP I have seen Senior Members with polo shirts and flight caps too.   

Six years ago seem about right, for brief window when hard rank on the flight cap was part of the ill-fated CSU. I had it on mine till Ma-Blue put the kibosh on it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Six years ago seem about right, for brief window when hard rank on the flight cap was part of the ill-fated CSU. I had it on mine till Ma-Blue put the kibosh on it.

I hadn't thought of the CSU, since when I wore mine the rank on the flight cap was already disallowed.

[NorCal21]

Well, I figured as my first post I'd wade into the deep in....

I think everyone has gotten a bit weighed down in their reply to a reply to a reply. I started out reading this thread from the very first all the way through to the last post. I think you guys are having a problem of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Now, having looked at Attachment 2 I'm a little confused. Attachment does nothing more than list the current ribbons/medals for the cadet and senior member programs as well as service awards. I see no mention of any change to a regulation in the attachment save the small box in the middle of page 2 that informs seniors how to wear their ribbons when updated to match the new chart.

I read mention of interpretation a few times. Clearly that's what's going on, but I'm confused as to why. Interpreting a statement such as "Congress shall make no law..." makes sense. There's actually words there that someone could interpret. Again, other than the small box on page 2, there's absolutely no wording anywhere for someone to interpret. I'm at a loss as to where someone is getting anything in this attachment that would infer or imply any change to to 39-1 concerning migration of cadet ribbons to senior wear.

I've always found issues like these odd in my job, in CAP or when I was in the military. Regulations say exactly what they say. There's no interpretation. If something is left out, or not addressed, than that's what you have... an unaddressed issue with not regulation to clarify. Anyone using Attachment 2 to support their position concerning anything other than what ribbons are currently awarded in each program has no basis. That's not to say they don't have a good opinion, but there's simply nothing in Attachment 2 to support just about any comment I've read in this thread promoting any limitation of wear from cadet to senior program.

[NorCal21]

If you check "CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2  7 FEBRUARY 2012" pages 29 and 30; authorized ribbons for cadets and seniors, you would find that the Cadet Recruiter's Ribbon is not authorized for wear by senior members.

I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong.

First, the word "authorized" is not used anywhere in Attachment 2.

Second, other than the small box of text in the middle of page 2, there's no wording or sentences that are present to be be interpreted one way or another anyway.

Therefore, any reading of Attachment 2 to imply a senior member cannot wear a cadet recruiting ribbon as a senior is incorrect. Now, you may be correct based on the original 39-1, but there's no supporting information in this attachment for that opinion.

So, my question is what phrase, sentence or wording exactly are you using to support a lack of "authorization" for this ribbon question?

[Майор Хаткевич]

The "Cadet" part of the title?

The fact that there is a SM one as well, with different requirements?

[Noble Six]

?

[Eclipse]

Seemed like usafaux2004 was pretty clear and spot-on.

[NorCal21]

The "Cadet" part of the title?

The fact that there is a SM one as well, with different requirements?

OK, but other than inferring some sort of linkage there is still no phrase in that addendum that says anything about what was, is or will be authorized for wear based on when or in what program a person earned the award, nor does it change any of the regulations. All it shows are the awards one can currently earn in a program. Not one phrase in the whole addendum seeks to make a change to regulations except for the small box on page two for SMs.

Yes, one says cadet and one says SM. And? Explain to me how those two words completely rewrite and/or change previous regulations please.

Again, to me and many others based on what I've read here, this is a discussion that is pointless. The addendum only lists awards that are currently attainable in each program. Nothing about this addendum changes any regulations save that little box on page 2.

[NorCal21]

In fact, after having read 39-3, and reading what CAPHQ has publicly answered on this question apparently an SM may wear all ribbons earned as a cadet except for in the milestone category which they may only wear the highest award.

"Can I wear the ribbons I earned as a cadet after I become a senior member?

Yes, some of them. For a list of the all the ribbons that may be worn by seniors including those earned as a cadet see Attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 7 February 2012 .

Note: The wording "only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn" refers to cadet milestone awards (Curry through Spaatz). There are a number of ribbons earned as a cadet that seniors may continue to wear including the IACE and encampment ribbons. These and others are covered in various paragraphs and attachments of CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates."

As for an SM wearing the cadet recruiting ribbon, there is no regulation specifically prohibiting it. The only answer I've seen even addressing this question is as follows:

"The wording "only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn" refers to cadet program milestone awards (Curry through Spaatz). There are a number of ribbons earned as a cadet that seniors may continue to wear. These are covered in various paragraphs and attachments of  CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 7 February 2012 .  Also see national board/NEC minutes for approval of other cadet ribbons seniors may continue to wear.

Specifically for recruiter ribbons, there are different criteria for ribbons for cadets and seniors. Specific rules are covered in Paragraph 21k of CAPR 39-3(see below). Seniors who were former cadets may count the recruits they recruited as a cadet to qualify for the senior ribbon.

Paragraph 21. Criteria for Award of Service Ribbons:
k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets."

This answer doesn't address an SM wearing a cadet ribbon he's earned while a cadet. It only states the differences between the requirements for awarding of the cadet and the senior recruiting ribbon. As this answer from CAPHQ does not specifically disallow the wearing of a cadet recruiting ribbon by a senior member, than it falls under the first answer above stating an SM may wear ribbons earned as a cadet.

[Eclipse]

The Cadet Recruiter ribbon is an award which may only be received by cadets, therefore is does, in fact fall under the highest cadet award criteria.

As it will never be the highest award a cadet will achieve, it may not be worn by cadets who transition to senior.

This answer doesn't address an SM wearing a cadet ribbon he's earned while a cadet.

It doesn't need to as that is addressed specifically elsewhere.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Specifically for recruiter ribbons, there are different criteria for ribbons for cadets and seniors. Specific rules are covered in Paragraph 21k of CAPR 39-3(see below). Seniors who were former cadets may count the recruits they recruited as a cadet to qualify for the senior ribbon.

That seems specific enough to me.

[NorCal21]

The Cadet Recruiter ribbon is an award which may only be received by cadets, therefore is does, in fact fall under the highest cadet award criteria.

As it will never be the highest award a cadet will achieve, it may not be worn by cadets who transition to senior.

This answer doesn't address an SM wearing a cadet ribbon he's earned while a cadet.

It doesn't need to as that is addressed specifically elsewhere.

OK. I probably missed it somewhere. I start to zone out after reading the bickering you know?! haha

[Private Investigator]

The Cadet Recruiter ribbon is an award which may only be received by cadets, therefore is does, in fact fall under the highest cadet award criteria.

As it will never be the highest award a cadet will achieve, it may not be worn by cadets who transition to senior.

This answer doesn't address an SM wearing a cadet ribbon he's earned while a cadet.

It doesn't need to as that is addressed specifically elsewhere.

OK. I probably missed it somewhere. I start to zone out after reading the bickering you know?! haha

You zone out about six months ago, but welcome back