The Grey Cap Thread

[Spaceman3750]

I'm sure Vanguard would be happy to procure them for a nominal fee...

Sir, I commend you on your rapier-sharp wit...using "Vanguard" and "nominal fee" in the same sentence.

I did find this, though, at www.tallyhouniforms.com:



This is black, but this one and another style are available in charcoal grey.

Please no...

[LGM30GMCC]

Oh my...General McPeak has been reincarnated!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I should have made clear that the sleeve striping is not necessarily an accoutrement that CAP would use!

[Al Sayre]

Grey would be OK I guess, but after you put your accoutrements on that black one with sleeve braid, you would probably have some issue with USN, USCG, USPHS, and NOAA. Welcome aboard Commander...

[titanII]

after you put your accoutrements on that black one with sleeve braid, you would probably have some issue with USN, USCG, USPHS, and NOAA. Welcome aboard Commander...

Not if people can count buttons  (USN jackes are double-breasted)
But I don't think Cyborg was ever suggesting black (too close to blue for the AF  )

[Al Sayre]

You'd be suprised how many enlisted sailors wouldn't recognize that at first glance, and that's probably why the USAF had problems with the CSU. 
"Blue coat with stuff on it, doesn't look quite right, but I'm not sure, so: 
"I'll salute so I don't get my but chewed"
"Maybe he's a foreign officer"
"Maybe he's some kind of Navy guy"
...

Most service members do not spend a lot of time interacting with other services enough to know what their uniforms really look like, especially dress uniforms, so anything that is vaguely similar will elicit a conditioned response.  There is a story about a fairly Senior Navy Chief who was assigned to a US Embassy, along with a Navy Captain who was to be the Naval Attache. Seems they both were to arrive on the same day on different flights.  Seems that the Chief had so much gold sleeve braid that the host country people who were at the airport to meet the Captain mistook him for the Captain, left the Captain stuck at the airport and spent the next two days wining and dining the Chief before the figured it out...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First off - NO SLEEVE BRAID.  I only used that photo because it was available.  These don't have epaulettes so my best guess is that the blazer-type nameplate (without the bloody awful pocket protector) would serve for rank ID.

Major Sayre, I know that realistically the charcoal-grey option would be the most "palatable" to most of the senior brass, but again black and even dark you-know-what could be used.  The cut is not like the AF and there would be no hard rank.

Your story about the Navy Chief just reinforces what a lot of our allies snicker about...that an E-4 can have more blingage than a general, admiral or air marshal in an allied service.

The "conditioned response" is the responsibility of the one doing the responding.  In this case it points back to the AF teaching recruits nothing about CAP.

Personally, I hate grey.  I can't see why CAP has embraced it (other than the "it's safe" factor) but since the brass hats don't seem to be willing to let us have anything else, I'm trying to work within that.

[Grumpy]

First off - NO SLEEVE BRAID.  I only used that photo because it was available.  These don't have epaulets so my best guess is that the blazer-type nameplate (without the bloody awful pocket protector) would serve for rank ID.

Major Sayre, I know that realistically the charcoal-grey option would be the most "palatable" to most of the senior brass, but again black and even dark you-know-what could be used.  The cut is not like the AF and there would be no hard rank.

Your story about the Navy Chief just reinforces what a lot of our allies snicker about...that an E-4 can have more blingage than a general, admiral or air marshal in an allied service.

The "conditioned response" is the responsibility of the one doing the responding.  In this case it points back to the AF teaching recruits nothing about CAP.

Personally, I hate grey.  I can't see why CAP has embraced it (other than the "it's safe" factor) but since the brass hats don't seem to be willing to let us have anything else, I'm trying to work within that.

I like the grey and blue combo myself.  That being said, do you think that they use this combo because so many other Federal Branches use it.   Might help keep the cost down buying from one supplyer.   I wore it when I was working the Federal Courts as a CSO.  Came in handy when I needed it for CAP  .

[Buzz]

This is a Swiss surplus item, but it could be a good template for a design of our own...

It looks like that they wear behind the counter at the local burger place.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It was the only grey cap I could find, other than old USN ones from WWII, or surplus East German.





My personal choice would be the West Point garrison cap, but some would no doubt find that a bridge too far because it isn't grey.

[RiverAux]

This is a solution looking for a problem. Is there a need for a hat with the aviator shirt uniform?

Is there a need for a blue flight cap to be worn with the short-sleeve variant of the AF-style uniform?   Wearing a hat with a military uniform is just a custom and something as silly looking that has no real benefit as the blue flight cap would be a prime candidate for elimination.  The only caps in our inventory that are really useful are the patrol cap and ball caps.  The others are just for show. 

That being said, if we're going to wear hats with the AF-style, for consistency we should wear hats with CAP's corporate military-style uniforms, which the gray/white is. 

[ColonelJack]

River ...

When the McPeak AF uniforms came out in 1993 (or thereabouts), they didn't have headgear at all.  IIRC, Gen. McPeak was at the funeral services for former President Nixon and was the only member of the Joint Chiefs to not have any kind of headgear at all - noticeable, as much of the memorial was held outdoors.  McPeak felt apparently as you do; the hat is an anachronism.  But the outcry from the field was immediate and loud -- louder, even, than the officers' dislike for the sleeve-stripe rank insignia.  The headgear was returned post-haste, as I recall.

It is a custom, but apparently one that is still coveted by most, if not all, of the military.

Jack

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And, as I said before, it adds a sense of completeness.

[titanII]

McPeak AF uniforms came out...

oooo cracking open the Pandora's Box that is the McPeak AF uniforms..

[ColonelJack]

McPeak AF uniforms came out...

oooo cracking open the Pandora's Box that is the McPeak AF uniforms..

Which, after a little tweaking by the next CSAF, we still wear.

Jack

[Hawk200]

River ...

When the McPeak AF uniforms came out in 1993 (or thereabouts), they didn't have headgear at all.  IIRC, Gen. McPeak was at the funeral services for former President Nixon and was the only member of the Joint Chiefs to not have any kind of headgear at all - noticeable, as much of the memorial was held outdoors.  McPeak felt apparently as you do; the hat is an anachronism.  But the outcry from the field was immediate and loud -- louder, even, than the officers' dislike for the sleeve-stripe rank insignia.  The headgear was returned post-haste, as I recall.

It is a custom, but apparently one that is still coveted by most, if not all, of the military.

Jack

That is incorrect. McPeak wanted to do away with headgear, but someone above him told him "No." What did happen is he did away with the service cap. At Nixon's funeral, he was the only staff member to be wearing a flight cap, when all the other branch representatives were wearing service caps.

Big writeup about it in everything from the Air Force Times to the local base newspaper. It wasn't a case of no headgear, it was a case of headgear that wasn't considered formal enough.

McPeak was a fighter jock that really didn't seem to think that uniforms should cater to anyone but aircrew. The first McPeak blues configuration only allowed a single badge, unless you were aircrew, then you got to wear two. He also didn't have US insignia on the coat. Fogleman was the one to bring back just about everything that airman wanted back.

[ColonelJack]

Thank you, Hawk.  I stand corrected.

Tricky thing, memory ... especially when it's full of more holes than Swiss cheese.

Appreciate it!

As an aside, if I'd have been General Fogelman, the only thing I would have kept from the McPeak idea of haute couture would have been the redesgined general officer's epaulet sleeves.  I thought they looked rather cool, with the silver along the edges and the stars in the middle.  Other than that, we should've gone back to the four-pocket service coat.  In my never-to-be-humble opinion, of course.

Jack

[titanII]

we should've gone back to the four-pocket service coat

I agree 100% with that. Four-pocket looks waaaay more military, IMO. It could have used an updating of the fabric, pocket shape, etc. to make it look a bit more modern. (my opinion again) But it would have been miles better than the current service coat, which is basically a suit jacket.

[Hawk200]

Tricky thing, memory ... especially when it's full of more holes than Swiss cheese.

Actually, your memory was probably perfectly correct in a manner. I knew a couple airman that got their butts chewed for not wearing headgear. Their reply was "McPeak got rid of headgear!" Didn't hold up long for them when the challenge was "Let's see the paperwork." Some folks jumped the gun without a formal written heads up. Unfortunately, some people in the chain of command actually put out that headgear had been eliminated, which didn't help matters.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't know of any AF or CAP personnel who have worn both styles (four pocket "Tony Nelson" and McPeak/Fogleman) that prefer the current cut.  I certainly don't.

If CAP adopts a grey service coat, like the Air America one, I would hope it would be four-pocket.

Maybe something like this...