Flight Jacket without uniform??

[Pumbaa]

Well I switch out my CAP patches and have this on my CWU 45.

Hope CapTalkers don't mind.  Either that or I put my Zombie hunter patch on if the mood strikes my fancy

[Short Field]

WIWOAD, it was explained that I could wear a uniform properly or improperly.  Just wearing parts of the uniform was wearing it improperly.  I had a SMSgt counsel me once on wearing a light blue shirt and dark blue pants simply because they looked too much like a uniform even through they were JC Penny specials.  The A2 without insignia is specifically authorized as "civilian outerwear".  Is the BDU jacket or CWU 45 authorized as "civilian outerwear"?  If you are wearing uniform parts, then you are either wearing a uniform properly or improperly.   A lot of people don't care since the cool factor exceeds any thoughts of propriety.

[PHall]

I see it slightly differently.

You're right about '... many people that consider those jackets "always a uniform, insignia doesn't matter". Seems to be CAP people.' That's because we're members of an organization with a specific "dress code". The pretenders/wannabes do not have that rule structure in place.

WIWOAD in the Navy, I experienced that inequity on a regular basis. Civilians could mix and match uniform items with impunity, while folks on AD could be disciplined for similar behaviour. The organizational membership made all the difference.

YMMV.

That and the UCMJ...

[C-150]

At one time I had 2 flight jackets for that reason. One had no markings at all. This is the one worn with jeans and such. They are comfortable jackets and I did not want any uniform association when wearing it with jeans. I don't wear one much at all anymore except with the uniform. Flight jackets have become popular among some gangs and such, although they wear them 5 sizes too big. I don't wish to be associated with the faddish nonsense.

[Hawk200]

I had a SMSgt counsel me once on wearing a light blue shirt and dark blue pants simply because they looked too much like a uniform even through they were JC Penny specials.

That strikes me as a SMSgt with a little too much time on his hands, and just had to show his tail. If I look at you, and I can tell they aren't uniform pieces, I wouldn't have even given a second look.

Strangely, I've seen stuff in movies (usually bad ones) where there's the light blue shirt, and dark blue pants portrayed as an Air Force uniform. The shirt is usually one of those dress shirts with the open left pocket, and the pants are obviously not uniform pants. I find it hilarious when the "black shoes" are black wingtips. About the only actual uniform item is the flight cap (of which there aren't many common civilian variations).

The A2 without insignia is specifically authorized as "civilian outerwear".

I think that was intentionally clarified because a lot of civilian pilots own them. I've been asked the question a number of times. If the jacket doesn't have Velcro patches on it, and especially if it has those handwarmer pockets (most legitimate military issue leather jackets don't  have them), then I tell those people it's fine with the polo or corporate (grey/white) uniform.

Is the BDU jacket or CWU 45 authorized as "civilian outerwear"?

39-1 doesn't give many instances where it defines "civilian outerwear". There are a few, but to go through a list of what is would probably require a reference list the size of a town library.

If you are wearing uniform parts, then you are either wearing a uniform properly or improperly.

A uniform part must be defined as a uniform part. But let's look at it in a different light: Can I wear a CWU-35/45, or an MA-1 with a flightsuit that does not have patches on it? Consider it.

A lot of people don't care since the cool factor exceeds any thoughts of propriety.

I never wore a flight jacket for "cool factor", it was a matter of practicality. Got one as a Christmas gift at a time when I was one of those "poor airmen". It was my civilian outergarment. I used either that, the windbreaker, or my all weather coat as outergarments for years. Nobody ever asked me if I was a pilot or aircrew at the times I wore that flight jacket.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

A former co-worker of mine wore his AF blue waist-length jacket (the same one we wear) without insignia as an everyday jacket.

He was a retired Captain (a mustang who'd gone to MSgt and then earned a commission) who had been in the AF almost 25 years and stationed everywhere from Korat RTAFB to the Pentagon to Andersen and got more commendations than Jimmy Carter has peanuts.

If there were a problem, I think someone like that would have identified it.

[Hawk200]

A former co-worker of mine wore his AF blue waist-length jacket (the same one we wear) without insignia as an everyday jacket.

He was a retired Captain (a mustang who'd gone to MSgt and then earned a commission) who had been in the AF almost 25 years and stationed everywhere from Korat RTAFB to the Pentagon to Andersen and got more commendations than Jimmy Carter has peanuts.

If there were a problem, I think someone like that would have identified it.

Anyone that tried to identify it as a problem wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The AF uniform pubs say it can be worn sans insignia with civilian clothes.

But it wouldn't surprise me if someone tried. I've had people tell me all kinds of things weren't authorized that were. I would usually tell them to find a reference and get back to me, and even went so far as to provide my assignment info, office, and phone number. Nobody ever did. I would always look something up before I did it if I wasn't sure, and a lot of times I would look stuff up when someone told me something was authorized that sounded strange.

[Short Field]

That strikes me as a SMSgt with a little too much time on his hands, and just had to show his tail. If I look at you, and I can tell they aren't uniform pieces, I wouldn't have even given a second look.

Do you use the 3' rule, the 8' rule, or the 25' rule?

The A2 without insignia is specifically authorized as "civilian outerwear".

I think that was intentionally clarified because a lot of civilian pilots own them.

It was authorized in the original announcement for the A2.  Same for the Black A2 that CAP uses.

Is the BDU jacket or CWU 45 authorized as "civilian outerwear"?

39-1 doesn't give many instances where it defines "civilian outerwear". There are a few, but to go through a list of what is would probably require a reference list the size of a town library.

So they bother to define it for the few, but allow it but do not define it for all the rest???

[PHall]

A former co-worker of mine wore his AF blue waist-length jacket (the same one we wear) without insignia as an everyday jacket.

Probably because it says right in the AF Uniform reg that it can be worn with civilian clothing if the insignia is removed.

(Ref: AFI 36-2903, Fig 2.11, Note 2)

[Pumbaa]

God I love uniform type threads!

[PHall]

God I love uniform type threads!

So don't read them. See, problem solved.

[Rotorhead]

God I love uniform type threads!

Couldn't you tell what it was about by the title? If so, then why open it just to make the comment?

[Flying Pig]

I have a green nomex flight jacket that I wear my CAP black leather name patch on with no other CAP patches.  Looks good.  And people ask me what the wings are from.  I then begin explaining CAP to them.  You can all burn me at the steak at the next Wing Conference.  I could wear my Sheriff wings, but our wings are the gold badge with wings coming out of them.  A kid has to have something to wear instead of a blank piece of velcro.

[Dracosbane]

Or, buy a leather name badge (or one of the cloth ones not authorized for uniform wear) with whatever you want on it, and wear whatever patches you want on the velcro, and swap them out for CAP ones as necessary.

[vento]

I have a green nomex flight jacket that I wear my CAP black leather name patch on with no other CAP patches.  Looks good.  And people ask me what the wings are from.  I then begin explaining CAP to them.  You can all burn me at the steak at the next Wing Conference.  I could wear my Sheriff wings, but our wings are the gold badge with wings coming out of them.  A kid has to have something to wear instead of a blank piece of velcro.

A commander leading by example with a partial uniform only because it looks good?
Sir, you are joking, right? Too often I fail to catch the sarcasm here at CT...

[Pumbaa]

..You can all burn me at the steak at the next Wing Conference. 

Well to be the grammar nazi...

I can burn you WITH the steak

or I can

Burn you AT the STAKE....

Dealers choice...

[Short Field]

I was taught if they can't trust you with the little stuff, how could they trust you with the important stuff?

[Major Carrales]

I was taught if they can't trust you with the little stuff, how could they trust you with the important stuff?

Well, I hear General U.S. Grant had a slight problem with wiskey...seems to have been there to win the Civil War.  General MacArthur was not in proper U.S. Army uniform wearing what I assume was a Phillipino Field Marshall's Uniform for the duration of WWII...yet "he did return."  I would imagine that a person who forgot a little thing...like putting the proper creamer in their coffee by mistake...might just be trusted enough to fly a mission in a B-52s later that day.

The moral of this above rant...wearing a jacket with civian clothes has more to do with how cold it might be outside as than to how trustworthy a pilot, ground team, commander or the like might be.  Your phrase above makes a logical fallacy.

[PHall]

I was taught if they can't trust you with the little stuff, how could they trust you with the important stuff?

So you're volunteering to be his replacement?

[Eclipse]

...like putting the proper creamer in their coffee by mistake...

There is a line...SIR...that should not be crossed by man nor beast.

Say what you want about uniform wear, but coffee is sacrosanct.