Curry Voucher?

[AirAux]

Can anyone tell me what the cadet receives for the Curry Voucher?  Thanks

[kwe1009]

http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/cadet-uniforms/

They receive a $100 voucher which can only be used for very specific items, basically the blue uniform, C/Amn ranks, name tag, Curry ribbon and ribbon holder, and shoes.

It can't be used for anything else like BDUs and you are only allowed to purchase one of each item.  The total cost of a uniform on Vanguard is over $150 so the voucher won't cover everything.

[AirAux]

IIRC, National originally said Vanguard would put together a "basket" so a cadet could get almost everything.  Did that not happen? 

[Майор Хаткевич]

IIRC, National originally said Vanguard would put together a "basket" so a cadet could get almost everything.  Did that not happen?

I remember that too, and I also do not see anything on the site as of last week or so.

[kwe1009]

The cadet gets an email with the coupon code and a list of what they are allowed to purchase.  No special basket or anything.  It would not be that difficult for Vanguard to set up a "Curry Voucher" category and just have the allowed items there.  It would certainly make it easier on those trying to use it.

[AirAux]

Just looked at Vanguard, basic blue uniform with everything but socks equals $203.40.  That is BS..  Someone with a couple of kids will not be able to afford that and then throw the BDU's on top??  BS, BS, BS!!! 

[Ned]

Just looked at Vanguard, basic blue uniform with everything but socks equals $203.40.  That is BS..  Someone with a couple of kids will not be able to afford that and then throw the BDU's on top??  BS, BS, BS!!!

I'm not sure I understand your concern.  Vanguard uniform prices will always be higher than the "issue quality" items at clothing sales, because by law Vanguard can't sell the DPSC items.  Plus, like every single business on the planet, they have to factor in expenses and even a fair profit for their shareholders.

I don't buy my uniforms there for that very reason.

What in particular has you so angry?

[MisterCD]

Just looked at Vanguard, basic blue uniform with everything but socks equals $203.40.  That is BS..  Someone with a couple of kids will not be able to afford that and then throw the BDU's on top??  BS, BS, BS!!!

I'm not sure I understand your concern.  Vanguard uniform prices will always be higher than the "issue quality" items at clothing sales, because by law Vanguard can't sell the DPSC items.  Plus, like every single business on the planet, they have to factor in expenses and even a fair profit for their shareholders.

I don't buy my uniforms there for that very reason.

What in particular has you so angry?

Perhaps because not everyone has the option of visiting a USAF facility to purchase uniforms at affordable prices, senior or cadet. I always find it odd we don't have more of a swap or exchange option. Lord knows I have uniform items which only collect dust which are distributed to squadrons or individuals to help save a few dollars.

[AirAux]

Perhaps you don't remember the days when the Air Force provided blues for the cadets, including shoes.  As the above has noted, most of us don't live near a base or find it impossible to get on the base if we find one.  For Vangaurd to get to be the exclusive provider for CAP items, the Air Force should have negotiated that Vanguard would provide the initial Cadet Uniform for a fixed fee of $100.00 or so.  These kids grow out of blues faster than they ever wear them out.  The dress black polymer shoes don't hold up at all and are scratched within a few wearings.  Good black leatehr shoes can be spit shined and can be reshined if damaged.  I don't know why CAP can't furnish an AFEES Catalogue to each new cadet and let them order their uniform from them.  For someone (the Air Force)that claims they are so inerested in the Cadet Program they sure have a funny way of showing it.  I truly think this is a terrible situation and will hurt our program severely over the next few years.  There was a big push on for inner city kids to join.  Well, you just show me some inner city kids that can lay out $200.00 for a uniform to earn their fist rank and then shell out another $200-300 for BDU's and boots.  Ain't happening.  I think someone needs to revisit this idea and quickly.  What happened to that $100.00 "basket" the would provide them with almost everything they need?  you can't even buy pants and a shirt for that..         

[xray328]

+1

Not to rehash here, but we spent almost $1000 getting two cadets to encampment.

The voucher needs to cover an entire blues uniform. AF and Vanguard need to figure out something. I'm not accusing here, but AF gives the money for the voucher and Vanguard has a monopoly on where you can spend it...hmmm.

[PA Guy]

Just looked at Vanguard, basic blue uniform with everything but socks equals $203.40.  That is BS..  Someone with a couple of kids will not be able to afford that and then throw the BDU's on top??  BS, BS, BS!!!

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!! $100 is better than $0. I'm sorry CAP can't meet your sense of entitlement.

[almostspaatz]

My goal is to not have to worry about having cadets deal with vanguard or getting onto a Base Ex., but instead have enough funds at the squadron that we can have a good supply of uniforms for cadets at the squadron's expense...

Well I can dream can't I?

[PA Guy]

+1

Not to rehash here, but we spent almost $1000 getting two cadets to encampment.

The voucher needs to cover an entire blues uniform. AF and Vanguard need to figure out something. I'm not accusing here, but AF gives the money for the voucher and Vanguard has a monopoly on where you can spend it...hmmm.

Did your 2 cadets receive any of the AF money for encampment? If so, what was that worth and how many Curry vouchers did you receive?

[xray328]

Just looked at Vanguard, basic blue uniform with everything but socks equals $203.40.  That is BS..  Someone with a couple of kids will not be able to afford that and then throw the BDU's on top??  BS, BS, BS!!!

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!! $100 is better than $0. I'm sorry CAP can't meet your sense of entitlement.

I think the issue is that when we went through AAFES the AF's money was better spent. I don't think we need to be worrying about "quality" here because a majority of cadets don't last 18 months. Can't we find a way to get "cadet grade" uniforms for the $100 the AF has graciously provided?

[xray328]

+1

Not to rehash here, but we spent almost $1000 getting two cadets to encampment.

The voucher needs to cover an entire blues uniform. AF and Vanguard need to figure out something. I'm not accusing here, but AF gives the money for the voucher and Vanguard has a monopoly on where you can spend it...hmmm.

Did your 2 cadets receive any of the AF money for encampment? If so, what was that worth and how many Curry vouchers did you receive?

Each kid got $125 and the $100 voucher. It was very much appreciated don't get me wrong. I just think uniforms need to be cadet friendly regarding pricing. Certainly AF money shouldn't be used to buy items that are available much cheaper from other sources (AAFES).  Get rid of Vanguard, let AAFES carry our uniform items again. Make AAFES more accessible and get a CAP division to expedite the process of getting the uniforms out in a timely fashion. There's no reason for AF money to be wasted like this.

[AirAux]

PA GUY, careful there with the entitlement talk, I have 35 years in with CAP this time.  I have spent upwards of $100,000.00 of my own money in the last 35 years in order to be an active member and stay trained.  I have volunteered close to 10,000 hours in the past 35 years.  You don't even understand entitlement.  CAP is a recruiting tool for cadets.  I have served.  I am ashamed of what the Air Force and CAP are doing to the cadet program.  Why the hell should this be a profit making endeavor for Vanguard when the Air Force can and has provided this service to the cadets in the past.  Many youngster will be denied access to CAP because their parents either can't afford it or won't.   

[Майор Хаткевич]

PA GUY, careful there with the entitlement talk, I have 35 years in with CAP this time.  I have spent upwards of $100,000.00 of my own money in the last 35 years in order to be an active member and stay trained.  I have volunteered close to 10,000 hours in the past 35 years.  You don't even understand entitlement.  CAP is a recruiting tool for cadets.  I have served.  I am ashamed of what the Air Force and CAP are doing to the cadet program.  Why the hell should this be a profit making endeavor for Vanguard when the Air Force can and has provided this service to the cadets in the past.  Many youngster will be denied access to CAP because their parents either can't afford it or won't.

CAP is cheaper than literally any other organized thing a kid can do. The cost for the basic items is ~150, with the voucher $50. Sure AAFES used to do it for $65, but they took MONTHS to deliver, usually when a kid already sourced the uniform elsewhere. That was part of the reason for the change.

As to $1000 encampments for 2....what kind of travel was involved and what was the cost of the actual event? Has anyone priced out space camp recently?

[xray328]

PA GUY, careful there with the entitlement talk, I have 35 years in with CAP this time.  I have spent upwards of $100,000.00 of my own money in the last 35 years in order to be an active member and stay trained.  I have volunteered close to 10,000 hours in the past 35 years.  You don't even understand entitlement.  CAP is a recruiting tool for cadets.  I have served.  I am ashamed of what the Air Force and CAP are doing to the cadet program.  Why the hell should this be a profit making endeavor for Vanguard when the Air Force can and has provided this service to the cadets in the past.  Many youngster will be denied access to CAP because their parents either can't afford it or won't.

CAP is cheaper than literally any other organized thing a kid can do. The cost for the basic items is ~150, with the voucher $50. Sure AAFES used to do it for $65, but they took MONTHS to deliver, usually when a kid already sourced the uniform elsewhere. That was part of the reason for the change.

As to $1000 encampments for 2....what kind of travel was involved and what was the cost of the actual event? Has anyone priced out space camp recently?

I've already had this debate Captain.  We're in the same wing, look at the summer encampments packing list then multiply x 2 plus encampment fees. I know we could of saved some money if we sewed on the patches but we weren't experienced enough in the sewing department at the time and I doubt most parents are. (Please save the learn to sew comments). We paid $25 per BDU top for that x 6. We drove them down and I'm not including that in the $1,000.

AAFES could of been fixed. The months it took to get out uniforms seems like a logistics issue. I can't see a reason, and admittedly I'm in no way all knowing, that "Vanguard" couldn't just be a part of AAFES with the sole purpose of getting AF quality uniform items (cheaper) out in a timely fashion.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've already had this debate Captain.  We're in the same wing, look at the summer encampments packing list then multiply x 2 plus encampment fees. I know we could of saved some money if we sewed on the patches but we weren't experienced enough in the sewing department at the time and I doubt most parents are. (Please save the learn to sew comments). We paid $25 per BDU top for that x 6. We drove them down and I'm not including that in the $1,000.

AAFES could of been fixed. The months it took to get out uniforms seems like a logistics issue. I can't see a reason, and admittedly I'm in no way all knowing, that "Vanguard" couldn't just be a part of AAFES with the sole purpose of getting AF quality uniform items (cheaper) out in a timely fashion.

I have my own opinions on requiring 3 sets of BDUs...I think it's wasteful. But you can't say the cost will  be there for the following year, at least.


Quite frankly, even if it's $500 all said and done per cadet, per week, that's a lot cheaper than a lot of "camps".


Plus, those uniforms won't simply stay at encampment, so not quite a "sunk" cost.

[PA Guy]

Air Aux,

Oh please. I have you beat in longevity by about 20 yrs. I have also served and never followed how much I spent but I was gone from home about 6 wks this summer  on my dime working for CAP and cadets. So don't try to play salty with me.

The cadet program is in the best health it has been for decades. It has problems but they are being addressed and as resources become available. The old cadet uniform program was a disaster in my opinion. If the voucher was ever received you could expect the package from AAFES anywhere from 1wk to never. It was an unworkable system.

As to the why the AF hasn't been involved you need to ask them. Considering they have been at war for over 10 yrs and having to deal with sequestration may have had something to do with it. If you want to be ashamed of the AF that is your call

[xray328]

We blindly followed "bring what's on the list" and were later told we could of gotten away with 2. But we kept hearing "follow the list" so that's what we did.

How many kids stick around for "next year"? Vanguard couldn't care less.

[abdsp51]

The old uniform program supplies came from the AAFES warehouse in San Antonio, the same warehouse that issues uniforms to the trainees at BMT.  Guess what they probably had 1 or 2 people processing things for CAP in conjunction with Ma Blues requirements.  It was a system that had it's flaws the biggest one was timely tracking and shipping of the uniforms. 

And for those that want to cry AAFES is cheaper guess what you are looking at over $100 for a set of blues just the SS shirt combo is over $100 and that's not including the price of the v/u-neck shirts.  So a hundred dollar voucher isn't going to cover everything and AAFES doesn't bundle items together to save the customer bucks.

AAFES and Vanguard will not merge for anything.  Vanguard sells our items and that is whom NHQ has deemed is the supplier since we do not have the bookstore any more. AAFES is for profit like Vanguard however AAFES kicks back a lot of their profits back to the bases it serves for MWR. 

[xray328]

Captain, this isn't about "our" fees for encampment at all. Wing does an outstanding job with our encampment. 

I just don't agree with the argument that encampments cost the same as other summer camps so lets just call it good.  AAFES could supply the uniforms necessary for our purposes at a much cheaper price over Vanguard. If I'm spending $500 for encampment fine, but I'd rather see that go towards the cadets than spending three times as much on uniform items than is necessary.

[xray328]

The old uniform program supplies came from the AAFES warehouse in San Antonio, the same warehouse that issues uniforms to the trainees at BMT.  Guess what they probably had 1 or 2 people processing things for CAP in conjunction with Ma Blues requirements.  It was a system that had it's flaws the biggest one was timely tracking and shipping of the uniforms. 

And for those that want to cry AAFES is cheaper guess what you are looking at over $100 for a set of blues just the SS shirt combo is over $100 and that's not including the price of the v/u-neck shirts.  So a hundred dollar voucher isn't going to cover everything and AAFES doesn't bundle items together to save the customer bucks.

AAFES and Vanguard will not merge for anything.  Vanguard sells our items and that is whom NHQ has deemed is the supplier since we do not have the bookstore any more. AAFES is for profit like Vanguard however AAFES kicks back a lot of their profits back to the bases it serves for MWR.

Is there any reason we couldn't of just put Vanguard under AAFES? Supply cadets with uniforms at those prices and use the extra folks to get them out faster? The system could of been fixed.

We are in the "total force", AAFES supplies uniforms for the rest of the force, can't we be included?  I just can't understand the need for Vanguard.  Fix AAFES, get the Vanguard folks over there in a "CAP Uniform Processing " role, have them be a division of AAFES.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We blindly followed "bring what's on the list" and were later told we could of gotten away with 2. But we kept hearing "follow the list" so that's what we did.

How many kids stick around for "next year"? Vanguard couldn't care less.

I hope you provided feedback to the staff/wing DCP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Captain, this isn't about "our" fees for encampment at all. Wing does an outstanding job with our encampment. 

I just don't agree with the argument that encampments cost the same as other summer camps so lets just call it good.  AAFES could supply the uniforms necessary for our purposes at a much cheaper price over Vanguard. If I'm spending $500 for encampment fine, but I'd rather see that go towards the cadets than spending three times as much on uniform items than is necessary.

Wing has very little direct work with encampment when it comes to these things. I work with Spring, due to the format we can get away with ONE set, and due to the wonderful support from the navy cost around half of what summer does.

Since you're newer to the program, you missed most of the AAFES issues. It wasn't workable, albeit free...if you got the uniform. I don't like the fix, but it is what it is.

[xray328]

Understood.  I'm applying for a Spring TO slot, I look forward to meeting and learning from you sir.

[Ned]

Perhaps you don't remember the days when the Air Force provided blues for the cadets, including shoes. 

Actually, I do.  IIRC, we gave up on buying shoes after about a year since funding was tight and mail order shoes did not fit correctly as often as parents and cadets would have liked.

But I also remember that for the great majority of our history, cadets received no free uniforms at all.  (A few squadrons screened uniforms or had other resources, however.)  Nearly a million former cadets from that era somehow managed to become Dynamic American Aerospace leaders.  Don't get me wrong, as the parent of a former cadet I'm glad that cadets receive some assistance today.  I know it can be important to many families.

As others have pointed out, CAP is more expensive than any of us would like.  I'm willing to entertain thoughts and ideas on how we can better deal with that.

As the above has noted, most of us don't live near a base or find it impossible to get on the base if we find one.

Undoubtedly true.  That is why Vanguard is an important resource for members who cannot make it to AF clothing sales.  Other members find other sources, including eBay, military surplus, relatives, etc.  But Vanguard is there to assist members.

For Vangaurd to get to be the exclusive provider for CAP items, the Air Force should have negotiated that Vanguard would provide the initial Cadet Uniform for a fixed fee of $100.00 or so. 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Vanguard is indeed the exclusive provider for CAP-specific items like most CAP insignia, but members are free to purchase the uniform clothing items anywhere.  If there is an on-line retailer who sells milspec AF uniform items in cadet sizes for less than VG, I'd be happy to hear about it and share it here on CAPTalk.

In theory we could subsidize cadet uniform costs as you describe, but the money has to come from somewhere.  Currently the AF graciously makes available appropriated dollars for cadet uniforms.  That's the Curry Voucher Program.  If there was enough money in the pot, we would be glad to buy every cadet a full set of blues, BDUs, insignia, and footwear.  And pay for alterations.  And replace them as the cadets grow or wear the uniforms out.

But there isn't that kind of money in the pot.  Nor do I see any signs that the AF is likely to double or triple the size of the uniform grant.  Because from their perspective, they are not sure they are getting their money's worth as it is.  (See our previous discussions about the Curry Voucher where we described the issues the AF has - cadet renewal rates and the notion that a significant portion of the uniform money given to us by the AF winds up hanging the closets of a lot of ex-members.)

I don't know why CAP can't furnish an AFEES Catalogue to each new cadet and let them order their uniform from them.  For someone (the Air Force)that claims they are so inerested in the Cadet Program they sure have a funny way of showing it.

You know that CAP-USAF members read CAPTalk, right?  I'm not sure that this sort of language will persuade them to increase the support.

For the record, the AF support of our cadet program is universally good and getting better.  Just look at the CEAP investment this year.  Hundreds of thousands of dollars.  We are grateful to them for their outstanding support.

Please refer to our previous threads on this to see the very real reasons members cannot simply order things at AAFES.com.  (Their entire eligibility and fulfillment system is tied to DEERS.  By law CAP cannot be in DEERS.)  We tried various work-arounds for years as part of the old FCU system.  We really, really tried.  But we could not make it work effectively.  Thus, to improve service to acceptable levels, we created the CVP.

I truly think this is a terrible situation and will hurt our program severely over the next few years.  There was a big push on for inner city kids to join.  Well, you just show me some inner city kids that can lay out $200.00 for a uniform to earn their fist rank and then shell out another $200-300 for BDU's and boots.  Ain't happening.  I think someone needs to revisit this idea and quickly. 

We know that CP is too expensive for many cadets.  We get that.  We really, really do.  That's why things like the CVP and CEAP are so important.

Again, any of the leadership would love to hear any ideas about how to reduce the costs for our cadets. 

I'm listening.

[Ned]

Is there any reason we couldn't of just put Vanguard under AAFES? Supply cadets with uniforms at those prices and use the extra folks to get them out faster? The system could of been fixed.

We are in the "total force", AAFES supplies uniforms for the rest of the force, can't we be included?  I just can't understand the need for Vanguard.  Fix AAFES, get the Vanguard folks over there in a "CAP Uniform Processing " role, have them be a division of AAFES.

You know AAFES does not make the items that they sell, right?  AAFES buys clothing and insignia from manufacturers.  Indeed, VG is one of their largest insignia suppliers.  I'm not sure how it would help to put an AAFES middleman between the members and VG.

And as nice as it sounds to have VG be a division of AAFES, there are rules that prevent the government from taking over private businesses.   

Remember, members are absolutely authorized to buy uniform parts from AAFES per AF regulations.  But you have to physically visit an AF clothing sales store to do so.  Many members do not live close enough to an AFB for that to work for them.  That's why have VG to serve those members.

Thank you for your service to CAP.  It is appreciated.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

[xray328]

Thank you Col.

Why didn't the AF just get more folks to fix the deficiencies over at AAFES?  Obviously waiting months for a uniform wasn't acceptable but they provided a more appropriate product for our cadets needs at a more reasonable price.  Why didn't they just add a few more folks down in San Antonio, maybe shake up management and get the problem fixed that way?

[Ned]

Thank you Col.

Why didn't the AF just get more folks to fix the deficiencies over at AAFES?  Obviously waiting months for a uniform wasn't acceptable but they provided a more appropriate product for our cadets needs at a more reasonable price.  Why didn't they just add a few more folks down in San Antonio, maybe shake up management and get the problem fixed that way?

We did repeatedly try over a period of years.  Not only did we try, but our colleagues at CAP-USAF tried as well.  The problem, as is often the case, was money.  It would have cost literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to modify the existing DEERS based AAFES ordering and fulfillment system.  And that's if AAFES wanted to do it, which they mostly didn't.  Because they have a pretty good system (from their perspective) and didn't want anyone mucking around with it.  And "adding a few more folks" is, again, a pretty expensive option.  We're talking about civil servants' salaries and benefits.  Just a couple of warehouse persons could easily run to nearly $200,000.  Which nobody was volunteering to give up.

But maybe the bigger picture is this -- AAFES wasn't really "deficient."  Their systems work fine - for all of their customers that order on-line.  We can't do that, so what developed was a series of "work-arounds" that tried to graft a manual system onto an automated system.  Hammering that square peg doesn't make it fit into the round hole any easier.

The CVP is a great upgrade.  Uniforms arrive in days instead of months.  Cadets have more options on how to spend the voucher funds.  Win-win.

[MSG Mac]

AAFEES and CAP had their problems, long delays in ordering and receiving  uniforms, lack of communication, etc. The Air Force uniform system was NEVER designed to accommodate children sizes (12-16 year olds), which caused the delays and non-receipt of uniforms. For those complaint that $100 is not enough, consider that the  voucher is 3x what the cadet spends on annual dues. While AF bases may be a a distance, it may be worthwhile to load cadets into a van and make the trip.

[Slim]

While AF bases may be a a distance, it may be worthwhile to load cadets into a van and make the trip.

Back in my WIWAC days, this is what we did.  Every few months, we'd schedule a supply run to Selfridge ANGB to visit their clothing sales store.  It wasn't very far for us, maybe an hour, but not just a hop skip and jump.  Other units in northern Michigan would make a trip to Wurtsmith AFB or Alpena CRTC, anywhere from 1-3 hours.

Just about any air guard or reserve base will have some kind of exchange or outlet for uniform purchases.  Call ahead and check with them to see what they have in stock, or what you would need to do to order from them.  The exchange at Alpena CRTC isn't much more than a 7-11 with a rack of snivel gear, no uniform items at all, but the manager has always told us that all we needed to do is call her a a couple weeks ahead of time with what we need and she'd be more than happy to order it delivered so we can pick it up when we get to encampment.  Same goes for an exchange on an Army post or camp.  Make a day trip out of it, they're good squadron bonding opportunities.  Plan it right, make sure you follow the access procedures, and if you think ahead, maybe see if they have anything worth touring on the base.

[NC Hokie]

But there isn't that kind of money in the pot.  Nor do I see any signs that the AF is likely to double or triple the size of the uniform grant.  Because from their perspective, they are not sure they are getting their money's worth as it is.  (See our previous discussions about the Curry Voucher where we described the issues the AF has - cadet renewal rates and the notion that a significant portion of the uniform money given to us by the AF winds up hanging the closets of a lot of ex-members.)

IMHO, a lot if this occurs because the old and new blues programs go through the cadet and his family instead of through the local squadron.  Sending the uniforms through the local squadron and giving some teeth to the recovery program (like a bill from NHQ for non-returned uniforms) would be much better that what we're doing now.

[LTC Don]

But there isn't that kind of money in the pot.  Nor do I see any signs that the AF is likely to double or triple the size of the uniform grant.  Because from their perspective, they are not sure they are getting their money's worth as it is.  (See our previous discussions about the Curry Voucher where we described the issues the AF has - cadet renewal rates and the notion that a significant portion of the uniform money given to us by the AF winds up hanging the closets of a lot of ex-members.)

IMHO, a lot if this occurs because the old and new blues programs go through the cadet and his family instead of through the local squadron.  Sending the uniforms through the local squadron and giving some teeth to the recovery program (like a bill from NHQ for non-returned uniforms) would be much better that what we're doing now.

I get it about the AAFES and DEERS system and all that.  What I haven't heard is why CAP couldn't have moved into the same supply chain system AFJROTC uses.  Public school students aren't in the DEERS system, yet they seem to be nicely outfitted every year.  I understand this isn't the 80's, but I received a full dress uniform with insignia and ribbons back in 1980 and 1981.  I don't know what AFJROTC students receive now.

Seems to me that the same supply chain that feeds the AFJROTC requirements can supply CAP's requirements as the official Auxiliary, and part of the 'Total Force' and all that.  Made even easier if the allotment is shipped to the wing headquarters and distributed from there.

I suggested to our supply folks several weeks ago regarding existing expendables that wing could establish a web-based zen-cart online ordering system restricted to assigned supply officers to place orders, and the squadrons could then pick their orders from Wing once it was complete (or pay wing to have it shipped to the unit).

I think the Vanguard solution presented an easy way to keep the cadet uniform system working.  I don't believe it's the most cost-effective.

[xray328]

Col Lee, there's some great ideas here that I hope NHQ considers.

A group purchase by Wing from the same source as the AFJROTC units use sounds like a great plan, obviously they have youth sizes.  Squadrons have sample sizes on hand, Wing holds the uniform inventory and the supply officer or CDC places the order through Wing.  Maybe Vanguard just stocks the big ticket/senior member/specialty items (insignia included) and Wing handles cadet uniforms?

[Ned]

Folks, I appreciate the suggestions.  I really do, but I've had meetings with both the ROTC and JROTC commanders at the Holm Center at Maxwell.  And we discussed this very thing (as part of a larger discussion about synergies), and the answer is that the ROTC folks are part of AF supply chain, just like every other unit in the AF.  They requisition stuff, and it appears through logistics channels.  No civilian organizations are part of that system.  Sure would be nice, though.

But be careful what you wish for.  Accountability for government property brings with it considerable responsibility and massive bureaucracy.  As in personal liability for loss of accountability.  Would any CAP commander want to be personally liable to Uncle Sam because Timmy moved out of state and the unit did not recover his uniforms?  Reports of survey, locked supply rooms, and thousands of dollars of inventory to be securely stored, periodically inventoried, and substantial record keeping.  ROTC units have a full time supply person.  (JROTC units generally don't, but are supported by region headquarters that do.)

I guess my point is that we did indeed think very long and hard about alternatives to the old FCU program before we carefully created the CVP.

[AirAux]

So what happened with the "basket" that Vanguard was going to set up with the "basic" uniform parts for $100.00??

[LSThiker]

Reports of survey

Come on Ned.  Reports of survey are fun.  Periodic 100% inventories are always a good way to blow a few days at the office

How many did you get to participate in?

[arajca]

Col Lee, there's some great ideas here that I hope NHQ considers.

A group purchase by Wing from the same source as the AFJROTC units use sounds like a great plan, obviously they have youth sizes.  Squadrons have sample sizes on hand, Wing holds the uniform inventory and the supply officer or CDC places the order through Wing.  Maybe Vanguard just stocks the big ticket/senior member/specialty items (insignia included) and Wing handles cadet uniforms?

As you're looking to pawn the uniform issue and inventory off on wing, let me put forth some information as a wing LG: We have limited space just like units do. We are volunteers just like you are. Many of us also work at units and hold multiple duty assignments just like you. Inventorying uniforms is not an easy job - I did that for a living for a few years.

As for space, I received a notice we're getting kicked out for a year or more while the AF renovates the building we're in. I'm working on finding alternative storage solutions, but we may not be able to keep doing uniform issues due to not having anywhere to store uniforms. Sardak are looking for some space, at least for wing offices, but there are multiple organizations in the same building who are also looking for space.

[xray328]

I'm not looking to pawn it off on Wing, I'm looking for a solution to the problem that's all.  I'm sure you didn't mean anything there.

Sounds like a lot of and effort was put into what's currently in place and I'm sure the folks that set it all up did their very best with what they had.  It'll never be perfect no matter what we do I guess.  Hopefully Vanguard finds a supplier that can offer cadet quality items at a lower cost.  Not low quality by any means, just not $50 shirts your kids going to outgrow in 6 months.

I do like the idea of taking the van down a few times a year the the closest AF base for an AAFES visit, thanks for that suggestion.

[CAPDCCMOM]

If you can take your unit van to the Base, check and see if the Base has a thrift store. I get almost new shirts for $2, pants for $3. You can really find great deals if you are willing to pick through and look.

[AirAux]

Only if you have access to that facility.  I take it we can no longer order from AFEES?  Why can't that become a reality??

[LTC Don]

Not low quality by any means, just not $50 shirts your kids going to outgrow in 6 months.

I do like the idea of taking the van down a few times a year the the closest AF base for an AAFES visit, thanks for that suggestion.

Typically it's the pants that get outgrown the fastest.  The key there is to educate parents on the hem -- Meaning, to make sure they know not to 'stovepipe' the hem, but make sure it slopes from the middle or almost the bottom lace-hole to the sole/upper boundary at the heel.  And, to make sure they allow at least a two-inch cuff for growth.  Stovepiping exacerbates the problem of cadets outgrowing the pants.

Secondly, I'm not sure about the items Vanguard sells, but the issue items from AAFES tend to run small, so one needs to plan accordingly and hopefully try before you buy if you do get to a base, then buy a size bigger. 

[NC Hokie]

I take it we can no longer order from AFEES?  Why can't that become a reality??

That expired equine was already beaten earlier in this thread.  Alas, our membership in the Total Force (but only when conducting AFAMs) does not go quite that far.

[JC004]

Does anyone have the FULL list of what all can be purchased with it? 

[PHall]

Reports of survey

Come on Ned.  Reports of survey are fun.  Periodic 100% inventories are always a good way to blow a few days at the office

How many did you get to participate in?

He was a Company Commander, need I say more?

[xray328]

Does anyone have the FULL list of what all can be purchased with it?

Attached...

[JC004]

So they can now use it to pay for nametags, cap device, etc.? 

Because if the unit can provide some of the items, it won't make the voucher like $50 short.

[abdsp51]

Using the figures above for just blues and blues alone I believe my grand total was 115 dollars.  If you remove the chevrons, ribbon and mounting bar then I get 104.3 so I don't see based off the data provided how this is not feasible..

[kwe1009]

Remember that the previous AAFES system only supplied the shirt, pants, and flight cap.  All other times were on the individual and/or squadron to procure.  Those items on Vanguard are $126.35 for a male cadet or $100.75 for a female.  That means that CAP is now $26.35 more expensive for cadets than it was last year.  So all of the issues that people have with the new program are over $26.35 for a male and $0.75 for a female.

People need to quit adding the costs of socks, shoes, BDUs, etc as they were never provided by AAFES, at least not in the few years I have been in CAP.


So what is the benefit of the additional cost?  Getting the blue uniform about 6 months earlier than the previous system.  I think that is worth the extra money and as others have noted, it is still one the cheapest youth activity out there.

[kwe1009]

Remember that the previous AAFES system only supplied the shirt, pants, and flight cap.  All other times were on the individual and/or squadron to procure.  Those items on Vanguard are $126.35 for a male cadet or $100.75 for a female.  That means that CAP is now $26.35 more expensive for cadets than it was last year.  So all of the issues that people have with the new program are over $26.35 for a male and $0.75 for a female.

People need to quit adding the costs of CAP insignia, socks, shoes, BDUs, etc as they were never provided by AAFES, at least not in the few years I have been in CAP.


So what is the benefit of the additional cost?  Getting the blue uniform about 6 months earlier than the previous system.  I think that is worth the extra money and as others have noted, it is still one the cheapest youth activity out there.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I ran these numbers a while ago, but can't seem to find the post.

As far as I remember, AAFES used to provide: Flight Cap, Shirt, Pants, Belt.  4 items

So for a male on VG:
Flight Cap: $19.45
Shirt: $47.50
Trousers: $59.40
Belt: $16.90
Total: $143.25

For a female on VG:
Flight Cap: $19.45
Shirt: $47.50
Slacks/Skirt: $54.00
Belt: $16.90
Total: $137.85

So the difference is actually $43.25 vs 37.85 Male/Female compared to pre-Voucher days.

The cost of AAFES uniforms was also less, under $70 bucks.

[xray328]

Check the price sheet I posted, Vanguard discounts items on the Curry Voucher list

[Майор Хаткевич]

Check the price sheet I posted, Vanguard discounts items on the Curry Voucher list

Ok, was that actual voucher pricing? I haven't had a way to get my hands on it yet. So they did do a price break?

[xray328]

Yes, it's saves you a few bucks.  The $59 pants are $55 for instance. They must of been trying to keep the pants/shirt set under $100.

Bad thing about them (I don't know AAFES policy) is that you pay shipping, then if it doesn't fit you pay shipping back to them, then you pay shipping again when they send you the new item.  That added $25 or so in our case.  Not saying that's an unfair policy, it just adds to the cost if you can't try the items on at the squadron first.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So for a male on VG:
Flight Cap: $19.45 -2.45
Shirt: $47.50 -3.50
Trousers: $59.40 -4.40
Belt: $16.90 -7.95
Total: $143.25 -  $18.30 = $124.95

For a female on VG:
Flight Cap: $19.45 -2.45
Shirt: $47.50 -3.50
Slacks/Skirt: $54.00 -4
Belt: $16.90 -7.95
Total: $137.85 - $17.90 = $119.95

So now the new costs to cadets compared to AAFES is $24.95 and $19.95

[JC004]

Does anyone have the FULL list of what all can be purchased with it?

Attached...

ty.

So since the total, for a male cadet, for example, is $183.45 (complete, with shoes/insignia), and I was able to issue a cadet a shirt and pants from unit supply, would the voucher zero out and make the complete uniform free?

Or is the sheet just for convenience (not what the voucher covers)?

Alternatively, we can get them a shirt for $30 less from AAFES, and have $30 to work with on the voucher if it covered anything on the sheet.

We have some belts, a couple flight caps, some pants, couple shirts...

We have cadets with financial issues.  We need a definite answer for them.

Ned? 

[Paul Creed III]

Can cadets use the monthly discount code that Vanguard posts on their Facebook page along with the Curry Voucher?

[xray328]

No, they send you the form, you fill it out and send it back.  There's no money exchanging hands and no further discounts.

[JC004]

I don't understand.  How would they get their $83 if there's no money involved? 

[xray328]

They bill NHQ

[JC004]

"Cadet visits Vanguard website and selects authorized uniform items (blues garments, shoes, belt, and blues insignia)."

"Cadet /parent is responsible for the order's balance after the first $100."

[xray328]

That's not how it happened for us. This was right after the role out so things might have changed. We were told to expect the voucher by email. We waited a few weeks and never got the email so we contacted Vanguard. They said they were pretty backed up at the time and they needed to make sure we were on the list from NHQ,. Once they verified we were on the Curry list from HQ they  emailed us that list I posted. We were told we could select up to $100 of uniform items on the list and told us to scan it and email it back. I ended up giving them my credit card for shipping/taxes because the order was just under the $100 limit (tax and shipping put us over) When we got the shipment (took a couple weeks) the invoice showed us as the ship to address and NHQ as the bill to address.