Ranger caps

[snpotratz]

"We" being Montana wing only.  Its a wing regulation per a letter from our commander

[Hawk200]

"We" being Montana wing only.  Its a wing regulation per a letter from our commander

First you said it's a letter from National, now you're saying it's a wing thing. Which is it?

Just because a wing commander says so, doesn't make it OK. Any changes to the basic pub require National approval. And a letter doesn't constitute a regulation.

This sounds fishy.

[adamblank]

In Montana, a standardized baseball cap can be worn.  It is "highly suggested" but everyone is always free to wear the standard BDU cap as is my understanding.

[maverik]

Just my $0.02, but if you've ever been to or seen pictures from NESA the black ball cap (the staff one) looks pretty High speed with the BDUs and flight suits. I say the staff, because with the student one you still have people wanting to roll it down which I understand because otherwise it looks awkward.

[snpotratz]

Ok, sorry.  Let me clarify.  It was a letter stating the regulation, that came from the wing, but was preapproved by the National Commander. 

Personally, I like them.  In the recent Memorial Day parade, our cadets looked pretty sharp in them.

[Hawk200]

Ok, sorry.  Let me clarify.  It was a letter stating the regulation, that came from the wing, but was preapproved by the National Commander.  I personally spoke with the wing commander who told me the BDU cap was no longer authorized, and ordered the three cadets with me to get orange ball caps.  (This was at a SARex where he brought us another box of the new caps.) 

Personally, I like them.  In the recent Memorial Day parade, our cadets looked pretty sharp in them.

Still sounds fishy. You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub. And Montana wouldn't be the first wing to make their own rules on things.

Have you seen this letter? And yes, it is acceptable to question such a change.

[BreakSilence]

Ok maybe I got the name wrong...  It is a ball cap, just folded in the front.  Please see image that was taken directly from the PAWG Hawk Mountain Ranger School Website.



I want to know how to do THAT to a regular baseball cap.  How do you do that?  What is that called (if not ranger cap)?

And yes, for those who haven't actually looked at the latest version of it, CAPM 39-1 does authorize ball caps for wear with BDU's.

"Color, unit designation, and cloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor. No other features such as stars, designs, individual's name and so forth, are authorized." - CAPM 39-1, p. 62, Table 2-3, Item 6, "CAP Baseball Cap"

Hawaii Wing will be switching to a generic black color.  We will begin the switch this summer during our summer encampment, at which we are making all cadets wear the ball caps.

It's easy for everyone to say just buy a regular BDU cap from this or that website, but for us here in Hawaii, shipping can be a female dog.  Especially when you consider the cost of other uniform items for new members, it makes sense to switch to ball caps.  Most of the uniform stores at military bases in Hawaii have stopped carrying BDU caps, and if they still have BDU caps, they will not be restocking.  To get a BDU cap here in Hawaii, it would cost approximately $10+ and maybe another $5 or so for shipping.  Compare this to a local dealer who can sell us generic black ball caps that cost less than $2.  I personally would love to stick with the BDU cap, but it is simply not feasible if you consider that BDU caps will only get rarer and rarer due to the USAF's uniform switch.  Consequently, they will only get more expensive.  We will have to switch eventually.  The BDU cap will soon be a collector's item.

[Майор Хаткевич]

WHY would you want to "Roll" a baseball cap? Leave it as it is meant to look.

[BreakSilence]

You are better able to see the rank, if applicable.

AND, it will be applied to our Wing's 7 Echelon Program.  New members don't get to roll their caps.  Thus, the roll is somewhat sacred as it will only worn by higher-ranking cadets.  Consequently, it will motivate them to promote.

[JC004]

...
You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub.
...

What about:

CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

[SarDragon]

Sorry, neither one of your reasons hold any more water than a mesh ball cap.

I have NEVER ever had any problem distinguishing rank/grade insignia on normal ball caps. Making the "modification" non-uniform is elitist, and ends up being divisive within the unit.

3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.
4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

[SarDragon]

...
You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub.
...

What about:

CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

That's merely prescribing a uniform of the day, based on authorized options. E.g. everyone will wear short sleeve service uniform, w/o tie, with ribbons. That is a valid specification.

Prescribing a questionable modification to a uniform item is not.

YMMV.

[BreakSilence]

Sorry, neither one of your reasons hold any more water than a mesh ball cap.

I have NEVER ever had any problem distinguishing rank/grade insignia on normal ball caps. Making the "modification" non-uniform is elitist, and ends up being divisive within the unit.

3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.
4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

Are you saying that ball caps are out of regulation, or are you saying that folding ball caps are out of regulation?  As I posted earlier, I believe I am correct that ball caps are allowed to be worn by CAPM 39-1.

I will humbly disagree on your thought that making one part of a uniform for a certain segment of the cadet population is elitist.  In fact, I think the opposite.  From my experience, officer ranks, insignia on covers, shoulder boards, color guard cords, service caps, etc. (which are only allowed for a certain segment of the cadet population) have only made cadets strive for higher things.

[BreakSilence]

Sorry, I read your post over.  I get that ball caps cannot be rolled, but then Hawk Mountain is out of regulation?

[Eclipse]

Are you saying that ball caps are out of regulation,

Approved ball caps may be worn with the BDU's (and other uniforms).

or are you saying that folding ball caps are out of regulation?

Show us where it's approved to wear it like that - HMRS cannot be used as an authority as they do many things there which are only authorized for wear in PAWG.

Just as an FYI - wearing grade of any kind on a ball cap is not authorized, therefore any arguments that rolling it makes the grade easier to see are moot (yes, every encampment that does it is breaking the regs).

[JC004]

...
You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub.
...

What about:

CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

That's merely prescribing a uniform of the day, based on authorized options. E.g. everyone will wear short sleeve service uniform, w/o tie, with ribbons. That is a valid specification.

Prescribing a questionable modification to a uniform item is not.

YMMV.

I'm talking about removing an item.  If a commander specifies a baseball cap or only black shirts instead of brown or black, for instance, isn't that a reasonable way for commanders to maintain uniformity among their members?  I can't imagine not being able to require a baseball cap if that is the unit's standard headgear.

[BreakSilence]

Alright then, I got my answer.  Thank you for all the input.  Our ball caps either have been or will be approved by the Wing Commander by encampment's time.

[cap235629]

but then Hawk Mountain is out of regulation?

       

NO WAY!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Eclipse]

Commanders may prescribe any approved uniform they wish (and by inverse prohibit any item they wish) for senior members, however the only uniform that can be mandated for cadets is the basic service uniform as provided by the FCU.

Nothing else may be required unless it is issued to the cadet.

Any unit SOP's have to be weighed against that.

[BreakSilence]

We're not putting BDU caps on the encampment supply list, and we're handing each cadet a ball cap.