Ranger caps

[BreakSilence]

So the Air Force phased out the BDU's, and that means that BDU covers are getting harder and harder to find.  My Wing has always used BDU caps.  Now, however, we will be switching over to ball caps due to the rising cost of BDU caps.  I'm totally understand the reasoning, but I don't like the look of most ball caps with a Battle Dress Uniform.  It just doesn't look right.  I have seen a "ranger" cap though, and I don't think I'd mind it that much with the BDU's.  Can anyone tell me how to ranger a ball cap?  Also, if you can give me any other miscellaneous information about ranger caps, that'd be great.

Thanks.

[IceNine]

Unfortunately what looks "right" to you is of little concern.

Unless "ranger caps" are authorized and they aren't you can't wear them.

[a2capt]

Starch and knuckles... I think they look hoaky, myself. Quite the opposite, however - I think the ball cap looks worse, so for the ball cap, it's an improvement.

Yes, finding the stuff is getting challenging.

[C/SrA]

In my squadron we are supposed to have what I think you are referring to as 'ranger' caps. I had trouble making my hat 'ranger', but another cadet helped me.

[Eeyore]

Yeah, like IceNine said, "Ranger Rolls" are not authorized in CAP.

[Hawk200]

So the Air Force phased out the BDU's, and that means that BDU covers are getting harder and harder to find.  My Wing has always used BDU caps.  Now, however, we will be switching over to ball caps due to the rising cost of BDU caps.  I'm totally understand the reasoning, but I don't like the look of most ball caps with a Battle Dress Uniform.  It just doesn't look right.  I have seen a "ranger" cap though, and I don't think I'd mind it that much with the BDU's.  Can anyone tell me how to ranger a ball cap?  Also, if you can give me any other miscellaneous information about ranger caps, that'd be great.

Thanks.
Sam Ramil
Hawaii Wing

The standard BDU hat is, at times, referred to as a "patrol cap". Army Rangers wear either a standard Army patrol cap, or a beret.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Very simply put, if it isn't in 39-1, you can't wear it. Frankly, I think ranger rolls make one look stupid and "tacti-kewl" unless one actually has a US Army Ranger Tab on. I find the ball caps useful, and they look professional. I never wear one for ES work, because I'll be wearing my helmet, so there.

[Nathan]

Most of the guys I knew who starched their ranger rolls into place ended up with these waterproof bowls on their head that made them look like bird baths when it rained. Even from a practical standpoint, it just really doesn't make much sense.

[MIKE]

$11 from USCav: http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=5435&TabID=1&cs=1  If anyone buys one, please let us know if it still looks like the one pictured with the eyelets and everything.

I miss my BDU cap.  Wear a ball cap with ODUs, and aside from the metal insignia hurting my brain... I hate that I can't stow it neatly in my left cargo pocket, so I end up carrying it around inside.  Never liked ball caps with BDUs, don't mind the look with the ODU though.

[Gung Ho]

Just my 2 cents but we are not playing baseball so we should not wear a ball cap.

[Ford73Diesel]

Wear a ball cap with ODUs, and aside from the metal insignia hurting my brain...

Take off the "frogs" and bend the metal prongs inward with pliers so it is flush with the cap.  (let me know if this does not make sense). You won't even know it's there. The only downside is the insignia is one time use, but if you ever get hit with something in the head you will be glad you did.

[MIKE]

Thought about that, but one of my reasons for wearing metal is so I can remove or change out the insignia easier.  Versus having multiple caps.  I put some duct tape on the frogs for a bit of comfort.  Otherwise I would have bought one of these. Still might, but after election season:

[cap235629]

I never wear one for ES work, because I'll be wearing my helmet, so there.

Oh crap I can see the Kevlar now!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I never wear one for ES work, because I'll be wearing my helmet, so there.

I'm hoping he means a "hardhat", as those who wear the mil helmets around here are ridiculed to no end.

Oh crap I can see the Kevlar now!

[MSgt Van]

Just my 2 cents but we are not playing baseball so we should not wear a ball cap.

But we're not in the military so we should stop trying to roll our caps into a bowl to make it look like we're a strike force ready for deployment.  "Gee, nice CAP tattoo ya got there. Is that the triangle thingy?"

[Eclipse]

we should stop trying to roll our caps into a bowl to make it look like we're a strike force ready for deployment.

Seriously, how does making a ball cap look like it got stuck in the dryer "help"?

[snpotratz]

Very simply put, if it isn't in 39-1, you can't wear it.

Not entirely true.  The Montana Wing Commander is also the commander of the SAR school.  He got NHQ to authorize an orange ball cap in place of the camo cap.  We are no longer authorized to wear the camo cap at all per a letter from NHQ applicable only to our wing.  Another case of "this is ALWAYS the rule...except..."

Steven Potratz
Bozeman Composite Squadron
Montana Wing
Personnel and AE Officer

[vmstan]

Thought about that, but one of my reasons for wearing metal is so I can remove or change out the insignia easier.  Versus having multiple caps.  I put some duct tape on the frogs for a bit of comfort.  Otherwise I would have bought one of these. Still might, but after election season:

I would much prefer something like that VS a BDU hat. They just look funky on my head.

[MSgt Van]

Very simply put, if it isn't in 39-1, you can't wear it.

"this is ALWAYS the rule...except..."

I guess that makes us uniformly different.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We are no longer authorized to wear the camo cap at all per a letter from NHQ applicable only to our wing. 

Got a cite for that? I've never heard of that, but if it's possible, maybe PAWG  can turn in the BDUs and get Orange Jumpsuits?

[snpotratz]

"We" being Montana wing only.  Its a wing regulation per a letter from our commander

[Hawk200]

"We" being Montana wing only.  Its a wing regulation per a letter from our commander

First you said it's a letter from National, now you're saying it's a wing thing. Which is it?

Just because a wing commander says so, doesn't make it OK. Any changes to the basic pub require National approval. And a letter doesn't constitute a regulation.

This sounds fishy.

[adamblank]

In Montana, a standardized baseball cap can be worn.  It is "highly suggested" but everyone is always free to wear the standard BDU cap as is my understanding.

[maverik]

Just my $0.02, but if you've ever been to or seen pictures from NESA the black ball cap (the staff one) looks pretty High speed with the BDUs and flight suits. I say the staff, because with the student one you still have people wanting to roll it down which I understand because otherwise it looks awkward.

[snpotratz]

Ok, sorry.  Let me clarify.  It was a letter stating the regulation, that came from the wing, but was preapproved by the National Commander. 

Personally, I like them.  In the recent Memorial Day parade, our cadets looked pretty sharp in them.

[Hawk200]

Ok, sorry.  Let me clarify.  It was a letter stating the regulation, that came from the wing, but was preapproved by the National Commander.  I personally spoke with the wing commander who told me the BDU cap was no longer authorized, and ordered the three cadets with me to get orange ball caps.  (This was at a SARex where he brought us another box of the new caps.) 

Personally, I like them.  In the recent Memorial Day parade, our cadets looked pretty sharp in them.

Still sounds fishy. You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub. And Montana wouldn't be the first wing to make their own rules on things.

Have you seen this letter? And yes, it is acceptable to question such a change.

[BreakSilence]

Ok maybe I got the name wrong...  It is a ball cap, just folded in the front.  Please see image that was taken directly from the PAWG Hawk Mountain Ranger School Website.



I want to know how to do THAT to a regular baseball cap.  How do you do that?  What is that called (if not ranger cap)?

And yes, for those who haven't actually looked at the latest version of it, CAPM 39-1 does authorize ball caps for wear with BDU's.

"Color, unit designation, and cloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor. No other features such as stars, designs, individual's name and so forth, are authorized." - CAPM 39-1, p. 62, Table 2-3, Item 6, "CAP Baseball Cap"

Hawaii Wing will be switching to a generic black color.  We will begin the switch this summer during our summer encampment, at which we are making all cadets wear the ball caps.

It's easy for everyone to say just buy a regular BDU cap from this or that website, but for us here in Hawaii, shipping can be a female dog.  Especially when you consider the cost of other uniform items for new members, it makes sense to switch to ball caps.  Most of the uniform stores at military bases in Hawaii have stopped carrying BDU caps, and if they still have BDU caps, they will not be restocking.  To get a BDU cap here in Hawaii, it would cost approximately $10+ and maybe another $5 or so for shipping.  Compare this to a local dealer who can sell us generic black ball caps that cost less than $2.  I personally would love to stick with the BDU cap, but it is simply not feasible if you consider that BDU caps will only get rarer and rarer due to the USAF's uniform switch.  Consequently, they will only get more expensive.  We will have to switch eventually.  The BDU cap will soon be a collector's item.

[Майор Хаткевич]

WHY would you want to "Roll" a baseball cap? Leave it as it is meant to look.

[BreakSilence]

You are better able to see the rank, if applicable.

AND, it will be applied to our Wing's 7 Echelon Program.  New members don't get to roll their caps.  Thus, the roll is somewhat sacred as it will only worn by higher-ranking cadets.  Consequently, it will motivate them to promote.

[JC004]

...
You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub.
...

What about:

CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

[SarDragon]

Sorry, neither one of your reasons hold any more water than a mesh ball cap.

I have NEVER ever had any problem distinguishing rank/grade insignia on normal ball caps. Making the "modification" non-uniform is elitist, and ends up being divisive within the unit.

3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.
4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

[SarDragon]

...
You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub.
...

What about:

CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

That's merely prescribing a uniform of the day, based on authorized options. E.g. everyone will wear short sleeve service uniform, w/o tie, with ribbons. That is a valid specification.

Prescribing a questionable modification to a uniform item is not.

YMMV.

[BreakSilence]

Sorry, neither one of your reasons hold any more water than a mesh ball cap.

I have NEVER ever had any problem distinguishing rank/grade insignia on normal ball caps. Making the "modification" non-uniform is elitist, and ends up being divisive within the unit.

3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.
4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

Are you saying that ball caps are out of regulation, or are you saying that folding ball caps are out of regulation?  As I posted earlier, I believe I am correct that ball caps are allowed to be worn by CAPM 39-1.

I will humbly disagree on your thought that making one part of a uniform for a certain segment of the cadet population is elitist.  In fact, I think the opposite.  From my experience, officer ranks, insignia on covers, shoulder boards, color guard cords, service caps, etc. (which are only allowed for a certain segment of the cadet population) have only made cadets strive for higher things.

[BreakSilence]

Sorry, I read your post over.  I get that ball caps cannot be rolled, but then Hawk Mountain is out of regulation?

[Eclipse]

Are you saying that ball caps are out of regulation,

Approved ball caps may be worn with the BDU's (and other uniforms).

or are you saying that folding ball caps are out of regulation?

Show us where it's approved to wear it like that - HMRS cannot be used as an authority as they do many things there which are only authorized for wear in PAWG.

Just as an FYI - wearing grade of any kind on a ball cap is not authorized, therefore any arguments that rolling it makes the grade easier to see are moot (yes, every encampment that does it is breaking the regs).

[JC004]

...
You can't just remove an authorized item from a pub.
...

What about:

CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

That's merely prescribing a uniform of the day, based on authorized options. E.g. everyone will wear short sleeve service uniform, w/o tie, with ribbons. That is a valid specification.

Prescribing a questionable modification to a uniform item is not.

YMMV.

I'm talking about removing an item.  If a commander specifies a baseball cap or only black shirts instead of brown or black, for instance, isn't that a reasonable way for commanders to maintain uniformity among their members?  I can't imagine not being able to require a baseball cap if that is the unit's standard headgear.

[BreakSilence]

Alright then, I got my answer.  Thank you for all the input.  Our ball caps either have been or will be approved by the Wing Commander by encampment's time.

[cap235629]

but then Hawk Mountain is out of regulation?

       

NO WAY!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Eclipse]

Commanders may prescribe any approved uniform they wish (and by inverse prohibit any item they wish) for senior members, however the only uniform that can be mandated for cadets is the basic service uniform as provided by the FCU.

Nothing else may be required unless it is issued to the cadet.

Any unit SOP's have to be weighed against that.

[BreakSilence]

We're not putting BDU caps on the encampment supply list, and we're handing each cadet a ball cap.

[Eclipse]

Alright then, I got my answer.  Thank you for all the input.  Our ball caps either have been or will be approved by the Wing Commander by encampment's time.

Which is nice, but the encampment commander may well have a different opinion about what you will wear during the activity.  Ball caps may well be prohibited, just as berets commonly are.

[BreakSilence]

Alright then, I got my answer.  Thank you for all the input.  Our ball caps either have been or will be approved by the Wing Commander by encampment's time.

Which is nice, but the encampment commander may well have a different opinion about what you will wear during the activity.  Ball caps may well be prohibited, just as berets commonly are.

Actually, I am the cadet commander of the encampment, so I can tell you for sure that ball caps are approved by the encampment commander.

[Eclipse]

There's nothing wrong with ball caps for an encampment.

And now that we have shown you that rolling them or putting grade on them is prohibited, you should be fine.

[BreakSilence]

Again, thank you all for the input.  I will now have a talk with my Director of Cadet Programs....

[JBC]

So the Air Force phased out the BDU's, and that means that BDU covers are getting harder and harder to find.  My Wing has always used BDU caps.  Now, however, we will be switching over to ball caps due to the rising cost of BDU caps.  I'm totally understand the reasoning, but I don't like the look of most ball caps with a Battle Dress Uniform.  It just doesn't look right.  I have seen a "ranger" cap though, and I don't think I'd mind it that much with the BDU's.  Can anyone tell me how to ranger a ball cap?  Also, if you can give me any other miscellaneous information about ranger caps, that'd be great.

Thanks.
Sam Ramil
Hawaii Wing

I could certainly tell you how to ranger roll a cap, but I'd feel more comfortable if you went through hawk first. What many people don't realize when ranger rolling.g there hats is the statement they're making: that theyve gone through ranger school. I ranger roll my BDU cap under the hawk paraphanelia ruling in the NB ruling. I really unload on cadets who ranger roll their hats withoutthe right to. And seniors, unfortunately, I must quietly and politely correct.

[BillB]

It's nice you can teach how to ranger roll a cap. But ranger roll was NOT included in the NB action, and as long as 39-1 says the ranger roll is not authorized, 39-1 is the controlling authority.

[SarDragon]

So the Air Force phased out the BDU's, and that means that BDU covers are getting harder and harder to find.  My Wing has always used BDU caps.  Now, however, we will be switching over to ball caps due to the rising cost of BDU caps.  I'm totally understand the reasoning, but I don't like the look of most ball caps with a Battle Dress Uniform.  It just doesn't look right.  I have seen a "ranger" cap though, and I don't think I'd mind it that much with the BDU's.  Can anyone tell me how to ranger a ball cap?  Also, if you can give me any other miscellaneous information about ranger caps, that'd be great.

Thanks.
Sam Ramil
Hawaii Wing

I could certainly tell you how to ranger roll a cap, but I'd feel more comfortable if you went through hawk first. What many people don't realize when ranger rolling.g there hats is the statement they're making: that theyve gone through ranger school. I ranger roll my BDU cap under the hawk paraphanelia ruling in the NB ruling. I really unload on cadets who ranger roll their hats withoutthe right to. And seniors, unfortunately, I must quietly and politely correct.

That attitude is exactly why Hawk has such a bad reputation. That activity has no exclusive claim to ranger rolling. Being a Hawk grad gives no specific 'rights' to do anything. Nothing. There might be certain privileges, but I don't think ranger rolling is one of them.

CAPM 39-1 specifically forbids crushing or rolling the BDU cap.

BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

There is no mention of any exceptions for Hawk or any other activity.

Lighen up and join the getalong gang. Your CAP career will be better if you do.

[sarmed1]

I could certainly tell you how to ranger roll a cap, but I'd feel more comfortable if you went through hawk first. What many people don't realize when ranger rolling.g there hats is the statement they're making: that theyve gone through ranger school. I ranger roll my BDU cap under the hawk paraphanelia ruling in the NB ruling. I really unload on cadets who ranger roll their hats withoutthe right to. And seniors, unfortunately, I must quietly and politely correct.

I would like to be the first person to say WOW!....I mean really WOW!  Unload on cadets who dont have the right to roll their hat...because you managed to not go home from a 9 day activity...... what expert ranger number are you?

Let me correct you on a few things.

#1  39-1...you should read it sometime...... patrol caps arent authorized to be ranger rolled.
#2  There is no such rule/tradition/special dead rat waving that in any way authurizing you ranger rolling because you went to HMRS
#3  There is no ranger paraphanelia rule regarding patrol caps; you were awarded an orange activity hat

  What HMRS staff member fed you this line of BS....or did you invent it on your own?

mk

edit ok 3rd person...you guy beat me two it while I was posting...mk

[SarDragon]

Gotta keep up, Mark. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Thanks Sarmed for your informed, majority(?) opinion. Unfortunately, this (cadet?) is exactly the type of product that seems to come back from Hawk by the time they reach GLR. No idea why.

[sarmed1]

I am going to go out on a limb and say they already had a belief in their specialness before going to Hawk.....I dont think there is a member of the staff at HMRS that even owns a ptrol cap that would even be able to tell someone they could wear it "ranger style"..... maybe if they were arguing orange t-shirts, pistol belts, scarves or tabs the mountain could take the hit....  but special things for BDU/patrol caps DOES NOT come from HMRS (or anywhere in PAWG likely)

I am sure I would have had the first post after, but I was trying to compose a reply that wouldnt get me banned for a week......

mk

[ol'fido]

Me thinks this cadet don't know from which "Ranger" school the tradition came from.