Wreck of WWII German U-boat found off North Carolina

Started by a2capt, October 21, 2014, 07:50:44 PM

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Cliff_Chambliss

#60
I am not defending the claims of having sunk 1 or a dozen U-Boats.  The facts as presently known state CAP did not sink anything (OK maybe scared the crap out of a whale or two), so it's time to quit beating a dead horse by continuing to try and defend something with no defense.
Maybe at the worst CAP's involvement in WWII was little more than a "feel good" exercise to let the members feel they were contributing to the greater good of the war effort.  Something along the lines of the scrap drives which made many people feel they were going something great but in truth accomplished little outside morale building. 
Maybe CAP's involvement was more than a morale building effort but how much more?  I am not taking anything away from those members who perished while performing their mission and duty for they did in fact give the last full measure of duty and that can never be taken away by anyone.

This is not to find fault with the CAP for all services of all nations inflated victory claims while deflated losses.  It is only thru the filter of time that the true numbers begin to take shape.  For well written documentation of this I would suggest two books:  Combined Bomber Offensive published by the Air University Press at Maxwell AFB, and Winged Victory which is a good hard look at the major players of Army Air Corps/ Air Force and their actions and failures in WWII.  (Arnold, Spaatz, etc.  should be titled "the Gods had clay feet).

As a followup:  www.archive.org  A free site of various library collections of books, music, films, videos, photos and such.   Search and you can find several WWII era propaganda films (anti-sub operations off the east Coast included).  Training films (how to fly the B-17, 25, 26, P-38,47,51,F6F, etc) film clips of various CAP Cadet activities from the 1950's, etc.  A good way to waste a bunch of hours.
11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
2d Armored Cavalry Regiment
3d Infantry Division
504th BattleField Surveillance Brigade

ARMY:  Because even the Marines need heros.    
CAVALRY:  If it were easy it would be called infantry.

AirAux

You are probably more right than you know, "was little more than a "feel good" exercise to let the members feel they were contributing to the greater good of the war effort."  In reality and thereby fact and real history, CAP has contributed next to nothing for the expense it has cost the taxpayers.  In reality, very few have been saved concerning the manhours of training and the expense the volunteers have given.  CAP was a recruiting tool for the Air Force for a while, but now recruiting is not of concern with the drawdown of the services.  With the future of drone warfare, areospace is of little consequence to anyone.  Most wings are now made up of good old boys flying clubs and the rest is of little concern.  I feel we are on the dusk of what was considered to be a beneficial program at one time, but now is an albatross around the neck of the Air Force and believe it or not, they could use the money elsewhere.  Perhaps it's time for the wanabees to look into their local state defense force.  Or see if Pineda is still looking for volunteers.  Go ahead and steal the thunder and glory and see what's left.  After all the truth is more important than mission...  So our program has been based on BS, well, we always knew that, didn't we.     

Eclipse

Quote from: AirAux on October 28, 2014, 03:03:21 PMthe truth is more important than mission...

The truth is not mutually exclusive from the mission, it is part of the mission.
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CoreValues_2AB4D48FE86A8.pdf

Integrity

Integrity is the cornerstone of the core values. It is the quality of being honest,
sincere, and morally upright; and without it, the other core
values cannot prevail.
Integrity requires discipline, consistency and persistence in order
to reflect the core values in everyday life. In practice, it involves doing the right thing,
understanding and implementing not just the rules and regulations but the spirit of what they
stand for. Former Air Force Chief of Staff, General Charles A. Gabriel said, "Integrity is the
fundamental premise of service in a free society.
Without integrity, the moral pillars of our military strength – public trust and self-respect – are lost." 

"That Others May Zoom"

AirAux

So, after 75 years of lying, deceiving, however you want to put it, now we are so worried about integrity???  Are you saying that the core values have not prevailed for all these years because of our past of non-integrity?  And so I go back to my premise, we are as doomed as doomed can be... 

Eclipse

As I tell people all the time "We can't fix last year."

Don't know / don't care about what was done in the past.

Integrity is what happens >NOW< if the assertions that have been made about the sinking(s)
are proven to be false, or are not verifiable.

You accept, correct, and move on.

"That Others May Zoom"

Alaric

Quote from: AirAux on October 28, 2014, 03:03:21 PM
...  In reality, very few have been saved concerning the manhours of training and the expense the volunteers have given.  CAP was a recruiting tool for the Air Force for a while, but now recruiting is not of concern with the drawdown of the services.  With the future of drone warfare, areospace is of little consequence to anyone.  Most wings are now made up of good old boys flying clubs and the rest is of little concern.  I feel we are on the dusk of what was considered to be a beneficial program at one time, but now is an albatross around the neck of the Air Force and believe it or not, they could use the money elsewhere.   

If you feel that way, why are you still here? 

Quote from: AirAux on October 28, 2014, 03:03:21 PM
Most wings are now made up of good old boys flying clubs and the rest is of little concern.

Really?  How many wings have you been a member of, I've been a member of 6 and all of them must be members of the minority as all have thriving ES, CP and AE programs.

Quote from: AirAux on October 28, 2014, 03:03:21 PM
Perhaps it's time for the wanabees to look into their local state defense force.  Or see if Pineda is still looking for volunteers.  Go ahead and steal the thunder and glory and see what's left.  After all the truth is more important than mission...  So our program has been based on BS, well, we always knew that, didn't we.

Wannabees?  Wannabee what's?  I want to be a member of an organization that contributes to its community, and I am.  So once again my question to is why are you still a member?

AirAux

Why would you want to be a member of an organization that has used lies for 75 years to recruit members?  Things like this draw attention to the alternative motives of the organization and it's upper level management.  This discredits the organization and taints all that belong to it.  The fact that so many want to wear the Air Force uniform so badly that they will give up uniformity for the whole organizations would certainly lead on to the conclusions that wannabees control enough of the organization to forego true uniformity for all.  I, too, have been in numerous wings for over three decades and began as a cadet.  Keep drinking to kool-aide...

Alaric

Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2014, 01:15:12 AM
Why would you want to be a member of an organization that has used lies for 75 years to recruit members?  Things like this draw attention to the alternative motives of the organization and it's upper level management.  This discredits the organization and taints all that belong to it.  The fact that so many want to wear the Air Force uniform so badly that they will give up uniformity for the whole organizations would certainly lead on to the conclusions that wannabees control enough of the organization to forego true uniformity for all.  I, too, have been in numerous wings for over three decades and began as a cadet.  Keep drinking to kool-aide...

I don't know how to drink to kool-aide, unless you mean I should offer a toast in its honor.  I wasn't recruited based on our WWII heritage, I was recruited based on ES work.  I have never worn the air force uniform so that would be a negative.  Also, I have found that those who answer questions with questions generally have not thought out their answers.

AirAux



"So once again my question to is why are you still a member?"
"Also, I have found that those who answer questions with questions generally have not thought out their answers."
Touche'.  I am a member because I can be and because I must deliver the truth as I see it just as the Historian feels he must spread the truth as he sees it.  So, knowing the program as I do, I would imagine that your ES experience has been less than twice a year, so why do you stay?

Alaric

Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2014, 01:43:05 AM


"So once again my question to is why are you still a member?"
"Also, I have found that those who answer questions with questions generally have not thought out their answers."
Touche'.  I am a member because I can be and because I must deliver the truth as I see it just as the Historian feels he must spread the truth as he sees it.  So, knowing the program as I do, I would imagine that your ES experience has been less than twice a year, so why do you stay?

Imagination is great in the year 2014 I flew 7 CD sorties did SAREVALs in 2 different wings, SAREXs in 3 different wings, and a HLS mission and the year is not over yet.  In addition I was able to instruct others at the NER MAS, become qualified as an MSO and PIO, and did a ground school for AP.  So I'm a member because I'm busy.  That doesn't include my work in PD, Admin, or Personnel.

LSThiker

Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2014, 01:43:05 AM
I am a member because I can be and because I must deliver the truth as I see it just as the Historian feels he must spread the truth as he sees it.

You have an interesting belief in "delivering the truth as you see it" since you are more concerned about the "image of CAP" rather than the truth.  According to you, we should just continue to spread false information because it makes the organization look better.

"Quit wasting your time trying to disprove an accepted and beloved theory from 75 years ago."
"You have no more factual proof that CAP didn't sink submarines than I have that they did, but my theory does no harm to CAP where yours attacks the honor, integrity, courage, heritage, pride, and esprit de corps of CAP."
"In a further attempt to sink CAP and discourage members by demonstrating their uselessness to the Air Force,"
"Go ahead and steal the thunder and glory and see what's left.  After all the truth is more important than mission...  "
"Things like this draw attention to the alternative motives of the organization and it's upper level management.  This discredits the organization and taints all that belong to it."

For some unknown reason, for you, determining the truth (whether or not we did actually sink two submarines) will destroy the organization, so we should not investigate it.  Did you also know, hiding the truth will also discredit an organization?

AirAux

As the man said, "You can't handle the truth."  How about the Historian work on something like the number of lives saved a year by CAP..  The real bonafide number with facts.  Is it 100, 80, 48, 32, or much less?  Let's see how effective we really are, shall we?  If we are interested in destroying legend, let's do it.  Alaric, you are to be praised, you are a man of few that are truly dedicated.  Few know the effort you have gone through to accomplish what you have.  I respect you and thank you for your service.

LSThiker

Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2014, 11:17:19 AM
As the man said, "You can't handle the truth."

Well it can be difficult to change views on an "accepted and beloved theory from 75 years ago".

QuoteHow about the Historian work on something like the number of lives saved a year by CAP.

So a historian can only work on one project at a time?  Hmmm, I might need to tell my commander that because apparently I am working on 9 projects too many.  Besides, why is that any different than working on the sub-sinking story?  Will people just argue about the numbers of saves just as much as the subs?  Claim that by correcting the numbers it brings into question the integrity, honor, and heritage of CAP?

QuoteLet's see how effective we really are, shall we?

Yes we of course should just as the AAF went through an AAR of the CAP.  The organization as a whole should always continuously determine its effectiveness.  That is one thing the commander appreciates from my position as a historian in that I have a tendency to notice the trends as oppose to the other staff positions.  You know, telling the forest from the trees and what not.

QuoteIf we are interested in destroying legend, let's do it.

No one is interested in destroying legend, just correcting the information so that we can tell truth instead of falsehoods.

RRLE

FWIW - CAP is not alone in validating and maybe disproving elements of its WWII mythology.

The USCG Aux's first "history" book on itself was The Volunteers and was written by an early National Commodore (NACO). The WWII chapters were very heavy on the USCG Temporary Reserve (TR) and its primary sub-components the Coastal Patrol, Beach Patrol and Volunteer Port Security Force. The Aux was laying claim to their history and claimed it as part of the Aux heritage. There were other parts of the TR that the Aux did not lay claim to - the women's auxiliary SPAR, the USCG Police and the NOAA Weatherman (not a modern radical group).

The problem being was that the TRs were not part of the Aux. The USCG forced anyone, with a few exceptions, who wanted to join the three components, to join the Aux first. The Aux was a civilian organization and was a parking place for the TR candidates until they were trained and passed a rudimentary security screen. Once trained and "secured" the member became a military member of the USCG TR. They could remain an Aux if they wanted to. After the war, the USCG converted TR flotillas into Aux flotillas and most of the TRs who were still in the Aux dropped out. To combat the drop-off the Aux got authorization to wear military ribbons on the Aux uniform - something that had been prohibited until then and has caused issues ever since.

At no time did the Aux civilian leadership control, direct or have any say over TR affairs. The USCG military officers controlled the TR.

It wasn't until the late 1990s and early 2000s that the Aux began to face up to its real heritage and begin to drop any references to the glory of TRs as part of its heritage - although vestiges of the old claims surface from time-to-time. The reassessment was lead by a membership group, outside the normal chain of leadership (the Aux doesn't have a chain of command), who used the resources of the web to challenge the perceived wisdom/myth. The debunkers were treated pretty much the same way the CAP historian has been treated in this thread but they have largely carried the day.

And like CAP, some of TR patrols claim to be have fired on (with rifles) German U-boats but there is no verifiable proof of this. The one claim that has some outside proof is that a U-boat may have accidentally surfaced under a TR patrol boat near Fort Lauderdale, FL. There is some independent evidence that when the boat was pulled to inspect the hull damage, that there was paint on the bottom that matched the color of the U-boats.

After the war, the USCG encouraged flotillas to produce unit histories. I have a small collection of these published hard bound books. None recount the tales of daring-do that made it into official history - The Volunteers. Nor are the feats recorded in the official records of the USCG or the US Navy Sea Frontier command. Like elements of the CAP history, the TR/Aux feats appear to have been internally generated with no verifiable outside proof.

The most famous feat of the TRs was that one boat was the object of the longest SAR in WWII. The story is an incredible story of survival at sea and they pretty much self-rescued. The story is told in "The Navy Hunts The CGR 3070" by Lawrence Thompson, Lt, USNR. It was published by Doubleday in 1943/44.

What is interesting is that while the Aux was claiming the history of others - it totally missed something it had real involvement in - the 1989 Mariel Boatlift. I had at one time, and might still have in my records, the day-to-day diary of the 7th District USCG Aux Commodore who ran the Aux side of the operation. It is fascinating reading and something the Aux pretty much ignores in its history. For some reason, a civilian volunteer organization choose to highlight (steal) the history of a military organization it was loosely connected to and ignore its own achievements in its appointed role.



James Shaw

Just a tidbit of information to share on how new discoveries can change the outcome of perceived and accepted history.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/10/29/amelia-earhart-plane-fragment-identified/


Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

LSThiker

Quote from: capmando on October 31, 2014, 03:16:04 PM
Just a tidbit of information to share on how new discoveries can change the outcome of perceived and accepted history.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/10/29/amelia-earhart-plane-fragment-identified/

Have heard the same story about strong evidence. I won't hold my breath. It would be wonderful if this does turn out a strong lead.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: AirAux on October 29, 2014, 01:15:12 AM
Why would you want to be a member of an organization that has used lies for 75 years to recruit members?  Things like this draw attention to the alternative motives of the organization and it's upper level management.  This discredits the organization and taints all that belong to it.  The fact that so many want to wear the Air Force uniform so badly that they will give up uniformity for the whole organizations would certainly lead on to the conclusions that wannabees control enough of the organization to forego true uniformity for all.  I, too, have been in numerous wings for over three decades and began as a cadet.  Keep drinking to kool-aide...

I doubt that there were any lies at all. CAP during WWII was hastily assembled and mission-focused. The administrative components didn't get as much attention as field components. I'd bet money that nobody saw it lasting 2 years, let alone 70+.

The National Commander, Johnson, was a CAP officer who was given an Army commission so he could run CAP full time. There is an IG report making the rounds that illustrates the amateur feel to CAP HQ - not that amateurs are bad people, but there didn't seem to be much in the way of oversight or training to bring them up to professional expectations.

What would things have looked like had CAP units been formed locally but attached to active Army bases under active chains of command? We'll never know, but I vividly recall what it was like when TSA was created - standing up an organization on day 1 that was supposed to be performing that mission starting on day 1 was a disaster.

And - lets not forget that we have tremendous advantages in information gathering, transmittal and retrieval that were not present in WWII.

That leaves us in 1942-45 with an embryonic organization that was started in a hurry, volunteers trying to do their jobs and staffed by people who may not have been professionally trained or experienced. I can easily see "I heard that a couple of guys at Coastal Patrol Base number X...." being retold and retold to the point that it sounded factual. Then somebody wrote it down. Somebody else passed it along and....

If there is any fault here, it's shared by Army and Navy people who passed the information along without verifying. Or, perhaps, no fault at all - maybe they believed it to, at the time, with what they thought they knew. Those faults were later compounded by the various authors who basically looped the claims back onto themselves. But, who cares? Combat claims during the Battle of Britain had the same result, due to "fog of war." It takes post-event research to tidy it all up.

We are at a point in history where it is possible to look at the claims with greater scrutiny. We owe ourselves the truth, no matter what it is.

Nothing, nothing, detracts from the courage, hard work and sacrifice of the people who flew those searches and who may have even believed that they hit or even sank subs. They were there. They put it all on the line.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

RiverAux

Should people not join the AF because WWII fighter pilots may have claimed kills that didn't actually happen?

Should they avoid the Navy because they honestly thought they sunk some subs that they hadn't?

I bet there are dozens and dozens of WWII AF squadron and Navy histories that also have higher number of kills and sinkings than actually had happened. 

And so on....

Fog of war people.  They reported what they thought had happened to the best of their ability.  Sometimes they turned out to be wrong. 


James Shaw

Quote from: RiverAux on November 03, 2014, 05:27:59 PM
Should people not join the AF because WWII fighter pilots may have claimed kills that didn't actually happen?

Should they avoid the Navy because they honestly thought they sunk some subs that they hadn't?

I bet there are dozens and dozens of WWII AF squadron and Navy histories that also have higher number of kills and sinkings than actually had happened. 

And so on....

Fog of war people.  They reported what they thought had happened to the best of their ability.  Sometimes they turned out to be wrong.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current