Wreck of WWII German U-boat found off North Carolina

Started by a2capt, October 21, 2014, 07:50:44 PM

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a2capt


http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/21/us/north-carolina-u-boat-wreck/index.html


QuoteThe German sub, the U-576, was found at the bottom of the Atlantic 30 miles off Cape Hatteras and just 240 yards from an American merchant ship, the merchant tanker Bluefields, which was part of a 24-ship U.S. convoy heading from Virginia to Key West, Florida, on July 14, 1942.
QuoteFew people realize how close the war actually came to America's shores," David Alberg, superintendent of NOAA's Monitor National Marine Sanctuary, said in a statement. "As we learn more about the underwater battlefield, Bluefields and U-576 will provide additional insight into a relatively little-known chapter in American history.
I think most CAP people know how close things were...

LSThiker

Quote from: a2capt on October 21, 2014, 07:50:44 PM
I think most CAP people know how close things were...

You would be surprised.  Even though they know the story of subchasing, I have met a number that do not realize the actual distance.  They did not know that German subs were in our harbors and German spies would sneak up onto shore.  I think most of these people believed our planes were flying hundreds of miles out.  When I gave a history presentation to my wing, it was an ocean of surprised looks when I mentioned distance in yards and not miles.   

In addition, people fail to realize that we had patrol bases on the West Coast (although a lot of the area were grounded) and had border patrol with Mexico. 

CAP_truth

Would be nice if it was sunk by one of our aircraft.
Cadet CoP
Wilson

Майор Хаткевич


LSThiker

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 21, 2014, 10:56:51 PM
Isn't there still an unconfirmed hit?

U-576 was sunk due to gunfire from the USS Unicoi and depth charges from several OS2 Kingfisher aircraft. 

Private Investigator


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: LSThiker on October 22, 2014, 02:26:46 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 21, 2014, 10:56:51 PM
Isn't there still an unconfirmed hit?

U-576 was sunk due to gunfire from the USS Unicoi and depth charges from several OS2 Kingfisher aircraft.

Yea, I read that.

Devil Doc

Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.


LSThiker

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 22, 2014, 01:06:41 PM
Yea, I read that.

Ah, I did not read the article so I assumed that information was not in there. 

PHall

Quote from: LSThiker on October 22, 2014, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 22, 2014, 01:06:41 PM
Yea, I read that.

Ah, I did not read the article so I assumed that information was not in there.

You do know what assume means, right? >:D

LSThiker

Quote from: PHall on October 22, 2014, 03:09:17 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 22, 2014, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 22, 2014, 01:06:41 PM
Yea, I read that.

Ah, I did not read the article so I assumed that information was not in there.

You do know what assume means, right? >:D

Are you assuming that I do :)

PHall

Quote from: LSThiker on October 22, 2014, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 22, 2014, 03:09:17 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 22, 2014, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 22, 2014, 01:06:41 PM
Yea, I read that.

Ah, I did not read the article so I assumed that information was not in there.

You do know what assume means, right? >:D

Are you assuming that I do :)

I assume nothing, that's why I question. 8)

AirAux

IIRC, we actually sank the Bluefields...  It wasn't spoken of much in CAP history, but...

LSThiker

Quote from: AirAux on October 23, 2014, 03:17:35 PM
IIRC, we actually sank the Bluefields...  It wasn't spoken of much in CAP history, but...

What is your source on this information?

The U-576 fired only four torpedoes.  Two hit the SS Chilore.  The third hit Mowinckel.  The fourth hit the Bluefields.  The Mowinckel later went into a US mine field and was further damaged.  The captain abandoned ship.  When it was later towed by the Martin, it struck another mine.  Despite a torpedo and two mines, the ship was ultimately saved.  The Chilore also went into the mine field and struck two mines.  It was later sunk when being towed back.     

LSThiker

#14
I think this is what you are referring to:

QuoteA CAP attack on 12 to 14 July might have damaged U-402 or U-576, although the U-boats were probably too far south of Atlantic City at the time. Three ships were torpedoed on 15 July shortly after convoy KS 520 left Chesapeake Bay; and another ship in the convoy fired on a submarine which submerged after two Navy planes dropped depth charges. The submarine is believed to be U-576 because it was never heard from again and no other U-boat reported attacking that convoy. A CAP attack off New Jersey on or after 15 July could have sunk U-576 if she survived the battle with convoy KS 520. U-89, U-458 and U-754 were also in the vicinity, and moved north along the coast where U-754 was sunk by a RCAF plane on 31 July. A late July CAP attack might have been against one of these three U-boats; but the log of U-754, which might have recorded the attack, was lost when it sank.Thewellman (talk) 02:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHistory_of_the_Civil_Air_Patrol

An interesting short "talk".

And I agree that most likely, we never really sank any U-boats.

MisterCD

If you wish to see the U.S. Navy's Gulf and Eastern Sea Frontier War Diary information regarding CAP's coastal patrol actions, go here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistory.cap.gov%2Ffiles%2Foriginal%2F0cb33704b7ca9ff484a16df556d060b2.pdf&embedded=true

Simple truth is there is zero evidence from the American, British, or German sources to make any sinking by a CAP aircraft confirmed, plausible, or probable and the evidence supporting any conclusive claim of damaging a U-boat is thus far non-existent. If hard conclusive evidence can be provided I welcome it, but so far after 70+ years nothing has been produced by CAP, the American or foreign military and/or archival sources.

AirAux

And you never will.  Our role was so secretive and controversial due to civilians being involved that it has been sealed along with the JFK assassination records.  Trust me, if you knew the truth about how demoralizing we were to the Axis and the number of kills attributed to CAP, you would tremble and cry out in terror.  Best to say it was a wartime legend and let it rest. 

Fubar

Quote from: AirAux on October 26, 2014, 01:03:57 PMTrust me, if you knew the truth about how demoralizing we were to the Axis and the number of kills attributed to CAP, you would tremble and cry out in terror.

Trust you? Why should I trust you, do you know the "truth" and if so, how? Why can't I know the "truth" like you do?

The fact CAP didn't sink anything doesn't diminish the bravery and patriotism of those who flew the coastal patrols, but let's stop the "stolen valor" of claiming successful sinkings when there were none.

PHall

Quote from: Fubar on October 26, 2014, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: AirAux on October 26, 2014, 01:03:57 PMTrust me, if you knew the truth about how demoralizing we were to the Axis and the number of kills attributed to CAP, you would tremble and cry out in terror.

Trust you? Why should I trust you, do you know the "truth" and if so, how? Why can't I know the "truth" like you do?

The fact CAP didn't sink anything doesn't diminish the bravery and patriotism of those who flew the coastal patrols, but let's stop the "stolen valor" of claiming successful sinkings when there were none.

But how do YOU know that there were no sinkings?

Cite please or drop it, your call.

MisterCD

#19
Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2014, 07:21:32 PM
Quote from: Fubar on October 26, 2014, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: AirAux on October 26, 2014, 01:03:57 PMTrust me, if you knew the truth about how demoralizing we were to the Axis and the number of kills attributed to CAP, you would tremble and cry out in terror.

Trust you? Why should I trust you, do you know the "truth" and if so, how? Why can't I know the "truth" like you do?

The fact CAP didn't sink anything doesn't diminish the bravery and patriotism of those who flew the coastal patrols, but let's stop the "stolen valor" of claiming successful sinkings when there were none.

But how do YOU know that there were no sinkings?

Cite please or drop it, your call.

After awhile this becomes a cyclical argument without end. No amount of primary historical research can bring some people to the realization that the onus for proof rests on the Civil Air Patrol if they are to make claims that they sank two submarines and killed approximately 90 to 100 sailors of the Kriegsmarine. Yes, statements were made by generals and reports...provided by the CAP...published in late 1943 listing statistics compiled by CAP National Headquarters.

The CAP claims are nebulous even to the organization's own records. There is limited to no information that the CAP has or has ever provided to verify its statistics. The Haggin - Farr attack is the lone exception, although the Navy discredited the claim in the immediate aftermath and it has never been linked to any particular U-boat in the postwar records as nothing has been found to support it. No hard information has been provided to verify the assertion of a U-boat running around off Florida, link any particular U-boat sighting, attack, or other event with a specific boat.

Several retorts to this have been that "the military covered it up and did not give CAP proper credit" and that "the Germans would never admit failure to the CAP planes." Well, the attacks by the military are well-documented with wrecks found at the reported locations. In the aftermath of the attacks of U-boats the Germans acknowledged having been sunk off the U.S. East and Gulf coasts the Navy or Coast Guard recovered bodies, survivors, wreckage, and other hard evidence. The latter also includes multiple eye witnesses to the event by multiple parties.

What about CAP then? What do we have? Well, we have accounts of aircrews and occasionally the information they logged on occasion about dates and rarely attack coordinates. This information has been cross referenced with German, USN, and USAF/USAAF records. Thus far nothing has been found to link a CAP attack with successfully damaging a U-boat much less sinking one. Although the Germans never reported a U-boat missing off the East or Gulf coasts from the 1942 - 1943 period CAP was operating, the U-869, lost in 1945, was  located accidentally off the New Jersey coast (and not off Morocco) so the records have shown to be occasionally off. The USN and USCG, however, were able to locate records recording attacks in the vicinity of the wreck to link the wreck with an attack.

So what U-boat(s) could CAP have sunk? No one has ever provided information in over 70 years to point a particular CAP attack to a particular U-boat that can be asserted with more than internet forum posting. If the documentary evidence can be assembled from CAP, American military records, and German records, and either a wreck located that the military has not claimed without any solid evidence to support the claim or hard records to document the infliction of damage, then CAP will have the solid, factual foundation to make claims. Until then, we are making pronouncements on shaky ground and it brings into question our credibility on other claims, past and present.

Ultimately, I'm not here to change opinions or bring decades of CAP history indoctrination crashing down. If asked about information on particular aspect of the organization's heritage, I'm obligated to provide the best possible product with the best information available. If this information does not parallel past claims, then further research has to be conducted to get to the bottom of the situation. When you exhaust all available material and sources, perhaps it is best to realize that the previous assertions are incorrect, and then to determine why.