We're no different

[lordmonar]

Here's an intresting idea.

What if we HIRED our National, regional and wing commanders?

That is the corporation (the BoG) were to find and hire full time commanders?  They would be free to look anywhere for these employees.

I can think of several different ways that would solve a lot of our problems.  Enformcment of regulations would be a lot better when a wing commander's job were on the line if he failed to keep his unit commanders following the regulations.

We would solve a lot of problems of issues not getting take care of because the Wing Commander did not have time to take care of it.

We would solve 90% of the national politics....and a big chunck of the wing level politics.

We would develope some long term leadership because we don't have to worry about people terming out. 

If we hire from outside of CAP we fill the gap by making sure he has a stong volunteer staff to support him.

It could be paid for by eliminating the wing admistrators and/or the State Directors (yes I know that the SD's are USAF employees but we can "contract" that function to the corporation.

A direct employer/contractor relationship would improve the USAF/CAP relationship.

[FW]

It is an interesting idea however, with decreased funding from congress and no certain funding stream from donors, I don't think it is feasible at this time.  I think it better to hold our leadership to what we advertise..... a strong ethical foundation and a true belief in our core values.

[Spike]

FW - could you please explain?  I am confused at what you are saying - and what are the real affairs you are referring to?

I've mentioned and explained my opinion on this in quite a number of recent posts.  As a former NB/NEC member, I've already made all the "difference" I could in CAP.  Now is the time for others to get involved and move to the top.  For members to make change in CAP, they must open up to more than just what is going on in their unit or, just talk about the state of things on CT.  I'm no longer interested in hearing excuses about why things can't be.  I'm no longer intereseted in hearing excuses about lack of time to be more involved in the "greater good". 
You either like the staus quo or, your not really interested in making positive change.  Either way, nothing will happen unless qualified and motivated members take the extra time, become more involved and move into positions of influence and authority. We need leaders more interested in the betterment of CAP than self.  You interested?

FW.  It is all political appointment.  You were one, as is every other member of the governing bodies.  So, if we are not in the "club" so to speak, we have less than a tiny chance to ever see anything higher than a Squadron Staff Position.  May I ask what items you brought to the board to improve CAP?  Don't say Wing Banker.  Many people take credit for that one. 

[BillB]

What would happen if the appoinment/election process was reversed? MeaningSquadron Commanders elected a Wing Commander. Wing Commanders elected the Region Commander and the Region Commanders acting as the NEC elected the National Commander? Alond the same line, the National Commander would appoint the Vice Commander, someone they could work with.

[FW]

FW.  It is all political appointment.  You were one, as is every other member of the governing bodies.  So, if we are not in the "club" so to speak, we have less than a tiny chance to ever see anything higher than a Squadron Staff Position.  May I ask what items you brought to the board to improve CAP?  Don't say Wing Banker.  Many people take credit for that one. 

When I became a SM, I was pretty much a "stranger in a strange land".  Other members in my squadron, for some reason, respected my work and opinions on things and soon ended up the squadron/cc. Unfortunatly, by then, I was one of only 2 active seniors in the squadron with 6 active cadets. By the end of my term, the squadron had over 60 cadets and 20 seniors performing great activities and a joy to be a part of.  After a few years, I asked the new wing/cc if I could be of assistance on his staff.  I was appointed the assistant finance officer.  In that capacity, I computerized the financial records for the first time and developed a way to keep track of aircraft expenses; which became known as "tail number accounting".  I got an award from the Air Force for that bit of change.  Anyway, after a while I became the wing/cs, then; well the rest of my CV is pretty much an open book.

When I was a wing/cc, I created an environment where membership rose 20% and our budget was cemented in by the Governor of our state for 3 straight years. 

When I was region/cs, I planned 3 region conferences which brought more members to it than the last 2 NB conferences.

As NFO, I won't say wing banker however, I will say the rewrite of the new Finance Reg and, insuring a 52% raise in our investments from 2004. Feel free to look over the minutes of the National Finance Committee for the last 4 years.  BTW, I was the one who made the decision to bring the WBP to the NEC for implimentation.  The WBP was developed by the current NFO.  He also, moved up through the ranks, and is the best individual for the job at this time.

Yes, Spike, politics plays a large part of what goes on in CAP.  However, there is plenty of room for new blood.  You just need to learn what it takes and move on it.  Just complaining about it does nothing.  Only proper and constructive action will work.

[necigrad]

So I'm probably breaking some informal unwritten internet forum rule by making my first post on a seriuos topic, but here goes anyway..

Some will disagree, but I believe that if we didn't have the cadet side providing warm bodies through Lackland AFB, the Air Force would have much less interest in us.

When I joined three years ago I would have agreed.  No longer however.  Since I have joined I have seen more and more use of CAP by the Air Force and the various Governments, Federal and State.  Look at how much we have been used for natural disasters.  And I know the Surrogate Predator Program is only for a small cross section of members, but CAP hasn't provided as much training assistance to Active Duty Personnel since WWII.  The AF has spent a few million dollars on that program, and our budget from Congress and the AF is something like $40 million.  That's a tremendous vote of support for our contributions IMO.

This could be the reason why we have so much to discuss here on CT.   We are like the NB and NEC.... to busy talking and caring about our own corner of the universe and, not taking a real stand on affairs which affect all of us.

There's a Cadet Advisory Council.  Maybe we need the same for the Membership as a whole.  Each Squadron sends a representative (maybe up to three reps per Squadron), then to Group, Wing, and Region.  The results of that goes to National.  You are then presented with the opinions of the Membership in a metered fashion, yet it comes from the Members, not the Officers of the Corporation (i.e. Wing Commanders).

I'm no longer intereseted in hearing excuses about lack of time to be more involved in the "greater good".  You either like the staus quo or, your not really interested in making positive change.

I actually take offense to this.  I'm all for contribution, that's why I'm here.  That's a horrendous statement however.  It's not nice to know that the time I carve out of my life, including full time work, half time student, volunteering with the local Police Department, AND volunteering in CAP isn't enough.  There's definatly something to be said about the "I'm just a volunteer" phrase being used as a crutch, but it's situational.  Youy can NOT use it as a blanket statement as it only fits one group of people, and a group that is really not representative of us as a whole at that.

[FW]

^Well, Daniel, thank you for placing things in proper perspective for me.  However, the comment is directed towards those who only want to complain about the leadership at the top and not actually do anything about it.  Yes, it's good to be "just a volunteer".  In fact, I think it is the best thing to be.  But, If you want to make significant changes, you gotta work towards a definable goal and have specific objectives to meet.  Anything else, IMO, is hot air.  If I want that, I can move to Arizona.

[ZigZag911]

Just to clarify my earlier post, I meant the NB vote on line, not CT members!

I feel reduced face to face contact may just hinder some of the political infighting.

It will certainly save travel expenses to CAP!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There was not doubt in anyone minds that the National Commander may be in charge, but the good colonel held the trump card.  And we were not a part-time auxiliary, we had the active-duty Wing Liaison Officers & NCOs for support.  Seniors and cadets all wore the same uniform, (although there were the infamous Smurf Suits).  What happened?  How did we end up like this, adrift?

We have demonstrated that we are not effective at governing ourselves.  How do we fix this?

These are questions I would also pose.

BG Anderson was in charge when I came into CAP, and it was just after the berry boards were adopted, which, for whatever reason, the AF saw fit to impose on us.  I've heard stories that it was to give us a slap in the face after a self-promoted MG and CAP personnel trying to dress down AF NCO's for not saluting us, I've heard it was for "distinctiveness"...but this all happened just prior to my joining, so I don't know the truth.

It might be oversimplifying it to say that the berry boards were the turning point in our relationship with the AF, but it seems that way to me, and, since this is a uniform thread, I'll go ahead and say so.  I heard more than one person, from a former Wing CC down to two former Squadron CC's, say it was so.

I remember the days of LO's and LNCO's.  They were better, I think, because it provided us a tangible point of contact with our parent service.  We had an excellent LO when I first signed up, and he was interested in ALL the membership, not just cadets.

I think the statement that "we are not effective at governing ourselves" holds a lot of truth.  We've wanted it our own way: to do what we want without AF "interference," but yet to look like the AF.

Personally, I would have us change to an AFRC General as our national CC, with a CAP General as deputy CC.  I would say ANG, except that there might be state/federal jurisdiction issues involved.  I would have AFRC Colonels as Region CC's, with CAP Colonels as Wing CC's.

ALL uniform changes that have ANYTHING to do with AF uniform parts, even if it were to wear the blue flight cap with the grey/whites, would have to be approved by the AF in advance.

But how likely is that to happen?

[Hawk200]

Just to clarify my earlier post, I meant the NB vote on line, not CT members!

That's how I read it. Still not sure why some people didn't.

[RiverAux]

I remember the days of LO's and LNCO's.  They were better, I think, because it provided us a tangible point of contact with our parent service.  We had an excellent LO when I first signed up, and he was interested in ALL the membership, not just cadets.

In our case they are/were the same thing.  The LO became the SD.  I see no difference between an LO, who had no command authority, and a civilian AF employee who has no command authority. 

[billford1]

If an AF Leader asked me why I think the AF would benefit from going back to the days prior to the 90's I would suggest that there are benefits to being able to run CAP the way they used to. 1. The AF benefits from recruiting Cadets for Military Service. Presently we have a lot of Cadets leave the program after a year. The Army has JROTC that helps feed their recruiting needs. AF LOs or LNCOs could help do likewise for the AF. 2. I think there's a case to be made for enhancements to Professional Development that could be improved by more AF LO involvement. My Son as a Cadet Lt was quitting CAP 3 years ago because of what he described as disorganized leadership where there was too much standing around. When AF people visit and brief us what they deliver is more dynamic and interesting which keeps us interested and setting goals. The role they play would likely make us better at what we do.

[Ned]

Not to take anything away from your post, but for historical accuracy:

1. The AF benefits from recruiting Cadets for Military Service. Presently we have a lot of Cadets leave the program after a year.

Our retention rates are pretty much the same as they have always been.  (Lousy, but consistent across the decades).  Most cadets left after one year in the 60's, 70's, and 80's as well.

The Army has JROTC that helps feed their recruiting needs. AF LOs or LNCOs could help do likewise for the AF.

Of course, the AF has their own AFJROTC detachments.  It has always been problematic to allow SDs/LO's/LNCOs/ to directly recruit cadets.

My Son as a Cadet Lt was quitting CAP 3 years ago because of what he described as disorganized leadership where there was too much standing around.

Again, not to beat a dead horse, but historical exit interviews have always suggested that units with high turnover often have issues with "disorganized leadership."  Not much has changed over the years.   And frankly, it is not too surprising.  I certainly have better things to do with my Tuesday nights than waste time at a unit where all we did was stand around (or just drill around the parking lot.)

[Major Carrales]

What would happen if the appoinment/election process was reversed? MeaningSquadron Commanders elected a Wing Commander. Wing Commanders elected the Region Commander and the Region Commanders acting as the NEC elected the National Commander? Alond the same line, the National Commander would appoint the Vice Commander, someone they could work with.

In that "anti-matter" universe we would have all the political problems involved with "running for office."  You know, people actively campaigning for WING COMMANDER, reprisals for commanders who did not support the WING commander and a host of real "lap dog"  and "pork barrel" politics.

Let's just leave it like it is.

[billford1]

This is for Ned but I'll spare the quotes. Ned do you feel like things are better now for CAP than they were back then?  Everybody I talk to who can remember it liked it better then. I don't mind when the AF Academy folks or other AF folks tell our Cadets about the AF. I do mind when Military Recruiters call the house and try to sell my Son a great future and give him DVDs. During the Viet Nam War the recruiters couldn't have got past my Parents because they had already lost a Son but not in Nam. Years later on I spotted the Army ROTC Officer at Broward Community College and  joined the  program with no assistance. In recent years we had an AF Liason Officer visit our CAP Squadron who later joined us. For a while he was our PDO and he really spoiled us.

[Ned]

Ned do you feel like things are better now for CAP than they were back then?  Everybody I talk to who can remember it liked it better then.

90% of we do or fail to do in the CP is at the squadron level.  And my take is that local units are substantially unchanged when compared to the past- some are successful, but most have challenges of one sort or another.

The great majority of the things that we spend so much time discussing here on CT - stuff like national-level drama and politics, uniforms, and CAP's choice of aircraft - rarely touch the typical Tuesday night meeting.  Where cadets and the dedicated seniors who support them largely go on training in Aerospace Education, Leadership, Character Education, & PT much like they have done since the late '60's.

Human nature being what it is, people always believe that things were better/tougher/stricter "in the old days."  I certainly had Old Salts take me aside when I was a cadet in the '60's and tell me about how Sorensen's new cadet program was a pale imitation of the "real" cadet program.  Similarly, when I commissioned into the Army in 1982, there was much complaining and bemoaning how "soft" the Cold War army had become.  And I certainly tell young attorneys today how easy they have it in court compared to when I was first starting out.


I certainly agree that all cadets benefit from a clear and genuine exposure to military life, and I know that Big Blue appreciates that aspect of our program.

Thanks for your contributions to our cadet program.  They are appreciated.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)

[High Speed Low Drag]

I've mentioned and explained my opinion on this in quite a number of recent posts.  As a former NB/NEC member, I've already made all the "difference" I could in CAP.  Now is the time for others to get involved and move to the top.  For members to make change in CAP, they must open up to more than just what is going on in their unit or, just talk about the state of things on CT.  I'm no longer interested in hearing excuses about why things can't be.  I'm no longer intereseted in hearing excuses about lack of time to be more involved in the "greater good". 
You either like the staus quo or, your not really interested in making positive change.  Either way, nothing will happen unless qualified and motivated members take the extra time, become more involved and move into positions of influence and authority. We need leaders more interested in the betterment of CAP than self.  You interested?

That's why I accepted the poistion of Dep Cmndr Cadets after 6 months back in CAP.  I probably spend at least 10-20 hours a week.  I have made the commitment.  When I am offered a position of higher responsibility, I will accept.  So yes, I am interested.

[Eclipse]

The great majority of the things that we spend so much time discussing here on CT - stuff like national-level drama and politics, uniforms, and CAP's choice of aircraft - rarely touch the typical Tuesday night meeting.  Where cadets and the dedicated seniors who support them largely go on training in Aerospace Education, Leadership, Character Education, & PT much like they have done since the late '60's.

+1

[High Speed Low Drag]

Human nature being what it is, people always believe that things were better/tougher/stricter "in the old days."  I certainly had Old Salts take me aside when I was a cadet in the '60's and tell me about how Sorensen's new cadet program was a pale imitation of the "real" cadet program.  Similarly, when I commissioned into the Army in 1982, there was much complaining and bemoaning how "soft" the Cold War army had become.  And I certainly tell young attorneys today how easy they have it in court compared to when I was first starting out.

Agreed - I tell the same things to new recruits as they come out of academy.
Some things that are better now then 25 years ago -

Availability of Resources - now that they are online, training is a lot easier - Communication amongst different areas of the country are better (Look at us here)
Cadet Programs - A lot more NCSAs, a lot more cool things to do during the summer.  Also, more respect for the cadet program from senior members.
More NHQ support of members - NHQ Staff are really helpful and seem to be really interested in helping members with their issues.

But having said that, there are other things that I think aren't as good - as mentioned previously.  I went to NSSC (Blue Beret) in '85.  I was reading yesterday how the program changed in the late '80s and early '90s.  I think that kinda reflects the change in mindset at that time.   Just told turkey needs attention - gotta go