Patch Design Proposal

Started by arajca, August 20, 2005, 01:41:38 AM

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arajca

killed

Major_Chuck

I like the concept and the idea to fall more in line with AF.  Just a few thoughts.

1.  The Shield patch would be excellent on BDU's, Utility Uniforms, flight suits, jackets, etc. with one exception, the Blue AF shirt.  The shield patch may be too large and overpowering for the sleeve of a shirt.  (I've never really cared for a wing patch on a shirt sleeve).

2.  I like what Florida Wing did with their wing patch, used the Round CAP shield patch and added the "Florida Wing" rocker.  On the Blue Uniform I feel this should be done across the board and use the AF Shield patch on all other uniforms that require it.

3.  The other idea is to simply use a Wing or Region rocker on the blues only.

I applaud your effort to standardize the patches we wear.  I know you've done this with other badges (Health Services, Ground Team, etc) and support you 100%.

-CC
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

BillB

I agree that using the same style patch Florida uses is a good idea. Just the name of the Wing above the CAP Seal should be enough of an identifier. There are two problems with the patch used by Florida:
1) it is slightly to large for wear by our smaller cadets. It needs to be reduced about 1/2 inch.
2) On BDUs the white patch shows up like a beacon.  Gray would be a better color for the background. And, it probably would also look better on blues and match the Senior rank insignia.
Umpteen years ago, all CAP members wore the CAP emblem, now the overseas patch, regardless of what Wing the person was a member of.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

MIKE

If we were going to go with a standardized shoulder patch design I would go with something like the Overseas squadron SSI with a state or region tab/rocker... As was stated, FLWGs patch is too large, and I don't personally like the design.

Reading the proposal, I thought arajca wasn't talking about the SSI type wing, region and national patches, but rather USAF style patches to be worn on the utility uniforms and flight suits only.

IIRC MAWG HQ has there own shield shaped patch with the ES patch dog on it also.
Mike Johnston

arajca

#4
killed

BlueLakes1

I'll sound off here I guess. I'm going to start from the top and work down.

Region- Sounds like a great plan. I just returned from NATCON, where I spent quite a lot of time looking at the collection of all patches CAP that the National Curator has. If I recall, only 2 regions have anything other than the tabs, and they were in the shield/scroll format already.

Wing- I like the concept, but playing Devil's advocate I think you'll have a heck of a fight on your hands. I don't recall any wings using the shield/scroll, and given the amount of time some of those patches have been in use I don't know that you'd get much support. I realize there have been a few changes in wing patch designs, but those weren't forced by mandate either.

While we're on the wing patch subject, if we want standardization with USAF I feel we should start by advocating the removal of the left sleeve patches from the blue serivce shirt altogether. It's hard to argue the necessity of a patch there when we've had them removed from the blue service jacket, and it's a lot easier to iron and crease a patchless sleeve. I think going to a generic overseas squadron or Florida style patch isn't a good plan either, as it's not standard at all and one can already identify you as a CAP member by the "other stuff" on the shirt. If someone really needs to know what wing you're from, let them ask.  ;)

Groups- I'd like to see the "gaggle" or "pizza patch" as an option for groups. While almost every group has the shield/scroll, I've seen more people wearing gaggles when I'm on base than I have wearing a scroll/shield.

Units- Looks great. Looking at the curator's board I was really surprised how many units have submitted the shield/scroll instead of the USAF standard round/rockers. I'd love to see more unit patches like that.

Activity patches- Leave them alone. USAF doesn't seem to have a "standard" for any "activity" (Red Flag, William Tell, etc.) patch and I don't recall seeing many square USAF patches to begin with. Most activity patches have some history to them, I have to vote to just leave them as is.

Now, for a question/concern, how would this be implemented, and at what expense? As this proposal is written, nearly every Wing, Group, Unit and activity patch currently authorized by CAP would become obsolete if this proposal was to be ratified as is. At the very least, the wing and activity patches currently stocked and unsold would become garbage collector's items only. New patches would have to be designed, produced, and sold. Individual members would have to buy the new patches and have them placed on the uniforms. In the case of several wings, the shield/scroll design would not cover the placement of the old wing patch, which could necessitate purchase of new uniforms as well. All in all, you're talking about a fairly substantial financial impact on the membership as a whole, and that's not including the units that have patches that would no longer meet standard. Just a few things to chew on.

And as always, remember that the opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the management and staff of this broadcast station ;-)

By the way Andrew, Col. Greenstone was asking about you in the HSO seminar yesterday. Sorry we missed you there!
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

arajca

#6
Killed

BlueLakes1

#7
Quote from: MCreedKY214While we're on the wing patch subject, if we want standardization with USAF I feel we should start by advocating the removal of the left sleeve patches from the blue serivce shirt altogether. It's hard to argue the necessity of a patch there when we've had them removed from the blue service jacket, and it's a lot easier to iron and crease a patchless sleeve. I think going to a generic overseas squadron or Florida style patch isn't a good plan either, as it's not standard at all and one can already identify you as a CAP member by the "other stuff" on the shirt. If someone really needs to know what wing you're from, let them ask.  ;)
Quote from: arajcaI could easily support that, but that requires changing CAPM 39-1.

I realize that you wrote this as a proposed 900-1, but given that all patches currently get their authorization from 39-1, any changes to patches would probably end up in that reg somehow. Just a hunch.

Quote from: MCreedKY214Groups- I'd like to see the "gaggle" or "pizza patch" as an option for groups. While almost every group has the shield/scroll, I've seen more people wearing gaggles when I'm on base than I have wearing a scroll/shield.
Quote from: arajcaI presume you mean a single patch with small versions of the unit patches from within that group. Sounds good, but in CO, we've changed group borders three time in the past four years. It should be simple enough to do that on a shield shaped patch.

It would have to be a BIG shield if you wanted to have more than a couple units on it. I know from my recent trip to Columbus AFB that the 14th OG pizza patch is substantially larger than any shield that would be wearable. Here's a link, the 14th OG is pretty easy to pick out.

http://www.usafupt.com/id217.htm


Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

Xeno

Quote from: MCreedKY214 on August 20, 2005, 09:30:09 PMUnits- Looks great. Looking at the curator's board I was really surprised how many units have submitted the shield/scroll instead of the USAF standard round/rockers. I'd love to see more unit patches like that.

Ah, about a year ago, my squadron submitted a patch design using the shield/scroll template after another squadron in ARWG had submitted its own shield/scroll design. Long story short. Theirs passed, ours didn't.

If I remember correctly ARWG referenced AFI 84-105, which states:

Quote from: AFI 84-105Those organizations in the USAF having headquarters are flag bearing organizations, known as establishments, such as groups, wings, and major commands (MAJCOM). Air Force Instruction 84-105, paragraph 3.3. specifies that a USAF flag-bearing organization should display its coat of arms (i.e., emblem design) on a modified heater-shaped shield.
Quote from: AFI 84-105The emblem design for units must be on a circular shaped shield or disc. Units with emblems on discs include named and numbered squadrons, numbered flights, and other USAF organizations that have no headquarters component.

beats me why one unit's shield design passed and ours didn't, but, thats the way it goes I suppose. Anyway I agree with you. The shield design looks alot better than the circle w/ rockers design (I'm currently working on  a new patch with this template and I just don't like it as much, I'll post it if anyone cares to see.). I too would love to see more units using the shield. But if we stick to AF Heraldry I doubt it will happen.

C/1st Lt. Josh Sims
C/CC SWR-AR-095

121.5 -- If you crash, we will dash...

BlueLakes1

Quote from: Xeno on August 22, 2005, 06:41:57 PM
Anyway I agree with you. The shield design looks alot better than the circle w/ rockers design (I'm currently working on  a new patch with this template and I just don't like it as much, I'll post it if anyone cares to see.). I too would love to see more units using the shield. But if we stick to AF Heraldry I doubt it will happen.

Think you missed me here...I'd love to see shield/scrolls restricted to groups and above and round/rockers for squadrons, because it's consistent with USAF standards.
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

Xeno

Quote from: MCreedKY214 on August 25, 2005, 08:25:31 PM
Think you missed me here...I'd love to see shield/scrolls restricted to groups and above and round/rockers for squadrons, because it's consistent with USAF standards.

Ah! My apologies. I wasn't paying enough attention.
C/1st Lt. Josh Sims
C/CC SWR-AR-095

121.5 -- If you crash, we will dash...

SarDragon

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Pylon

Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2005, 06:36:07 PM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I'm with the crowd that says if we're going to keep them, keep them the way they are.  Of course our patches look nothing like USAF's:  USAF personnel don't wear Wing patches on the sleeves of their blues, they don't wear get patches for their BDUs for each activity they go to, and they certainly don't wear full color patches on blues or BDUs.   I can't see the argument made that we should standardize our patches to line up with the way the USAF does it, because the patches still won't look like the USAFs when we get done standardizing them.

Not to mention, who cares if the Montana Wing patch looks different from the New York Wing patch, etc. etc.   When you're at almost any activity, except for National ones, everybody pretty much has the same patch on their shoulder.   That's standardization and uniformity right there.

Someone from outside CAP looking at a group of us, 999 times out of a thousand, will see a group of people all with the same Wing patch.

Any military or USAF personnel looking at a group of CAP personnel will not think to themselves, "Man - they look nothing like us. That Wing patch is not a shield!"   They're probably too busy wondering why the epaulets and namesplates are grey, or wondering what rank three little circles represents, etc.

Our patches are fine the way they are.  I'm not a fan of having anything more than the minimum requirement components on my uniforms, anyways.  But for those who wear activity patches and other extraneous patches, I say, go ahead. 

Within the current patch designs in most places, whether it be for a Wing patch or an activity patch, there is a long history and in many cases, significance of the current design. 

I just don't see a need to change things that currently don't bring discredit on the organization or make us look unprofessional.  Full color patches, no matter what shape or orientation they're conformed into, will always look like full color patches.  We won't look more like the USAF, or less like CAP, either way. 

To quote in closing the ever wise Maj. Dave Bowles, from the post previous to this:

Quote from: SarDragon
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Buzz

Quote from: MCreedKY214 on August 20, 2005, 09:30:09 PM

Now, for a question/concern, how would this be implemented, and at what expense? As this proposal is written, nearly every Wing, Group, Unit and activity patch currently authorized by CAP would become obsolete if this proposal was to be ratified as is. At the very least, the wing and activity patches currently stocked and unsold would become garbage collector's items only. New patches would have to be designed, produced, and sold. Individual members would have to buy the new patches and have them placed on the uniforms. In the case of several wings, the shield/scroll design would not cover the placement of the old wing patch, which could necessitate purchase of new uniforms as well. All in all, you're talking about a fairly substantial financial impact on the membership as a whole, and that's not including the units that have patches that would no longer meet standard. Just a few things to chew on.


In the past there have been some major changes in patches and uniforms.  Each time, there was a sunset date, usually several years into the future.  Until then, you would wear the old until you got around to replacing it with the new.  Cadets had a longer transition period, so they get the stuff the seniors can't wear any more (my cadet flight wore brand-new "pinks" inherited from the senior flight clothing shelves).

This, BTW, is how we avoided having to wear the Popeye uniforms that McPeak inflicted on the full-time guys.  We wore the older AF uniform across the entire Popeye period.


Buzz

Quote from: arajca on August 20, 2005, 01:41:38 AM
I am preparing a proposal to gradually standardize CAP patches - all levels.

I am looking for constructive comments.



The AF already has a set of standards.  Let's use those.  Wing patches should be rolled into a standard frisbee -- for instance, CAWG would still have their flying bear, but it would be an element in a round patch of standard size rather than having an unusual outline.

I agree with those who say take it off the Class As anyhow.  Keep the embroidery for the BDUs and flight suit.


arajca

#15
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SarDragon

Cut Buzz a little slack, he's been around CAP way longer than you have, and has probably been using that term since he joined, perhaps even as a cadet.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: arajca on August 31, 2005, 07:35:56 PM
Quote from: Buzz on August 31, 2005, 08:12:37 AM
Quote from: arajca on August 20, 2005, 01:41:38 AM
I am preparing a proposal to gradually standardize CAP patches - all levels.

I am looking for constructive comments.



The AF already has a set of standards.  Let's use those.  Wing patches should be rolled into a standard frisbee -- for instance, CAWG would still have their flying bear, but it would be an element in a round patch of standard size rather than having an unusual outline.

I agree with those who say take it off the Class As anyhow.  Keep the embroidery for the BDUs and flight suit.


Close, but no cigar. The AF standard for wings is the modified heater shield (aka AF shield). It is also the standard for groups. Squadrons use the disk.

BTW, What is a CAP Class A uniform? I can't find it in CAPM 39-1.

That's just petty semantics at best.

I would imagine that you've never used a colloquialism in your life...  ::)
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

arajca

#18
Killed

SarDragon

Hey, folks, if you want to beat this dead horse (Class A's) some more, take it back here, on page 2, where yours truly got that thread a little off-topic. I have presented some, IMHO, some valid reasoning for discontinuing usage of that term.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret