Wear of CAP World War II Aviation Badge authorized

[JeffDG]

I'm sorry, I just don't see the problem here. Wear of the WWII wings is not mandatory, it's optional for one year. The wings cost $12.50. Don't like 'em? Don't buy em.  Don't put 'em on your uniform. Come on folks, is it really that big a freakin' deal? 

And please explain to me how $4000 out of a $39,000,000 budget is going to hurt our operations.

That $4000 could be used for something useful and not for something of zero value.
There is a term that is used to describe stuff like this. It's Fraud, Waste and Abuse.

So, I presume that you've reported this via the proper channels, then, right?  Because if you see something that is FWA and don't report it, that's a pretty serious integrity issue on your part.

[Garibaldi]

Interesting...a uniform thread that went into a budget thread. Most unusual.

IMO, this is not fraud, waste or abuse.

Fraud would mean the monies taken in from our membership or Congress were used in a manner inconsistent with the mission(s) of CAP.
Waste would mean frivolous use of monies taken in by members or Congress (NASCAR, anyone? *snerk*)
Abuse would mean the consistent misuse of funding.

I don't see how these heritage wings fall under any of these categories.

I would suggest that if you have an issue with the funding of this program, you can file a complaint with your Wing IG. I'm sure they will forward your complaint up the chain.

I think this thread should be locked before we REALLY get our panties in a wad.

[Capt Thompson]

And again, the heritage wings program cost $20, which the Chief Historian paid out of pocket. The entire History program gets around $4k a year, which is not a lot of money, and defintely not waste or abuse.

[Garibaldi]

Why is this even a thing, anyway?

Buy, or do not buy. Wear, or do not wear. There is no gray area here. Don't wanna spend your money on this? Then DON'T. No one is twisting your arm.

[CAP_truth]

If we're going back to WWII with uniforms and regulations. Will we pay the same dues if any from that time period?

[Garibaldi]

If we're going back to WWII with uniforms and regulations. Will we pay the same dues if any from that time period?

Yes. We will also arm our planes (we will be returning our Cessnas and taking on L-19s and Piper Cubs) with faulty bombs and torpedoes. Germany has agreed to lend our Navy several of their museum-quality U-boats so we can sink them.

[MSG Mac]

The vintage wings are OPTIONAL, wear them or not, your choice. The $4000 annual budget is a drop in the bucket out of CAP funding. Out of that CAP will have a National Museum at Bolling AFB, we got the Congressional Gold Medal, and several other good things.  If you won't wear them, you can use the wings to present to new pilots or aircrew.

[PA Guy]

 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

[Mitchell 1969]

I have misgivings about this, but not from any budgetary standpoint or disagreements with any need to preserve history.

My objections center around my belief that it is poor form to wear badges or awards which one did not earn. And I did not earn those wings.

The WWII era wings were awarded to people who earned them under WWII era conditions, using WWII era criteria. The wings I earned, in 1970, were different from what are worn now. When the ones I earned were replaced by different versions, I wore the newer ones, just as people in 1949-50 put aside the enameled wings.

It seems to me that we are turning hard-earned and hard-worn aviation badges into lapel pins or brooches. I can't help but be reminded of Gill Robb Wilson's daughter wearing her CAP uniform to a gold medal presentation wearing her dad's WWII wings - not only did she not earn them, but unless she is a pilot and has earned any version of wings she shouldn't wear them.  But, "cool" seemed to outrank "proper" in that case and seems to reign under the new change. We are combining re-enactment with current service, a bizarre concept, in my opinion. I can't picture the US Army authorizing puttees on uniforms in 2018 to commemorate WWI, either.

I'd totally support the idea of letting CAP members who earned the enameled wings to wear THEIR wings for a year. Or allowing those who earned dropped wings to wear THEIR wings. But, allowing all and sundry to wear SOMEBODY ELSE'S wings? Just doesn't seem right.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Mitchell, I thought these guys were regular US Army.

Continental Color Guard, Honor Guard Company, 4th Battalion, 3rd US Infantry Regiment in

http://www.oldguard.mdw.army.mil/specialty-platoons/continental-color-guard

If they are regular US Army, they are doing just what you said the US Army would not do.

[Robert Hartigan]

First and foremost, I love the idea! Actually a neat way to celebrate the anniversary. But, since I am a senior member who had to suffer through the embarrassment of maroon epaulets, I'm always a little apprehensive when there is a change to the uniforms. No matter how small, insignificant or well meaning and received any change needs to comply with the regulation. I know I sound like a barracks lawyer, but some may debate the validity of the ICL with respect to the USAF style uniform since it is not counter signed by CAP-USAF.

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014,
"1.1.2.2. The Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF, prescribes the wear of the USAF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms.
1.1.2.3. The CAP National Commander (CAP/CC) prescribes the wear of the Corporate- style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms."

[Garibaldi]

I've yet to see a CAPM 39-1 with the National CC's signature on it. At least, to the best of these addled eyes and lame brain.

[ZigZag911]

Our connection to CAP's origins in WW2 is one of the best recruiting tools available, as we should be able to see in the media attention that the presentation of the Congressional Gold Medal replicas has attracted...no way does this constitute FWA!

If you don't like the option, don't buy or wear the darn things...and. meanwhile, feel free to express that view hear or through the chain of command...but  let's be careful about alleging regulatory violations.

[Mitchell 1969]

Mitchell, I thought these guys were regular US Army.

Continental Color Guard, Honor Guard Company, 4th Battalion, 3rd US Infantry Regiment in

http://www.oldguard.mdw.army.mil/specialty-platoons/continental-color-guard

If they are regular US Army, they are doing just what you said the US Army would not do.

Cite ONE example, please. ONE, of anyone in those units wearing an individual qualification badge on a current uniform, with said badge being one which they did not personally earn.

I'll wait here.

[lordmonar]

Mitchell, I thought these guys were regular US Army.

Continental Color Guard, Honor Guard Company, 4th Battalion, 3rd US Infantry Regiment in

http://www.oldguard.mdw.army.mil/specialty-platoons/continental-color-guard

If they are regular US Army, they are doing just what you said the US Army would not do.

Cite ONE example, please. ONE, of anyone in those units wearing an individual qualification badge on a current uniform, with said badge being one which they did not personally earn.

I'll wait here.

The fact that the army allows the wear of UNIT awards (cords and unit award ribbons)  that they did not personally earn for the express purpose of honoring the history and accomplishments of the unit, set the same type of precedence that CAP is using to allow currently qualified Observers and Pilots to wear historical badges....to honor the history and accomplishments of our organization.

Your stretch that we should not wear WWII wings because we did not earn them is really just silly.
If CAP tomorrow discontinued the current wings and came up with a completely new set......we would not have to re-earn them.  We would simply put on the new ones.   And if CAP 30 years down the road wanted to honor the accomplishments of the Millennial Members of CAP by allowing those member to wear "our" wings......it would the same thing.

Listen.   If you don't want to wear them......good on you.  Otherwise it is just a lot of noise. 

[Flying Pig]

Mitchell, I thought these guys were regular US Army.

Continental Color Guard, Honor Guard Company, 4th Battalion, 3rd US Infantry Regiment in

http://www.oldguard.mdw.army.mil/specialty-platoons/continental-color-guard

If they are regular US Army, they are doing just what you said the US Army would not do.

Cite ONE example, please. ONE, of anyone in those units wearing an individual qualification badge on a current uniform, with said badge being one which they did not personally earn.

I'll wait here.

This idea isnt unprofessional, its a great way to talk about CAP if anyone were to ask.  For the most part NOBODY outside of CAP is going to even notice.  If I was active in CAP still, I would probably sport a set.  As far as saying "I didnt earn them".... ehhhhh thats not even relevant.    You are a CAP Pilot.  The style of badge has no bearing on that.  What if a member was a CAP pilot when the old style wings were worn, would they be prohibited from wearing the new wings or prohibited from flying until they took another Form 5?  If a CAP member wore the old style ribbons, did they have to re-earn their Commanders Commendation Medal with the new ribbons came out? 

Its not a qualification badge, but the 5th and 6th Marine Regiments still wear the French Fourragere for the units actions in WWI. (I was with the 6th Marines... and that cord was a big deal.)  Believe me, I had NOTHING to do with the Battle of Belleau Wood.  The US Army Continental Color Guard wears the Revolutionary War style uniform.  They definitely didnt "earn" that.  But CAP isnt the military as we all know.   However..... in LE many agencies will wear throwback badges on their major anniversaries.  An agency I was with in CA went back to the original issued badge of 1910 and wore it the entire length of 2010.  It was typically the LAPD style shield, but in 1910 it was a small 5 point star.  I think that comparison is closer to a CAP example vs looking at the military. 

http://www.6thmarines.marines.mil/Units/2ndBattalion/History/Fourragere.aspx
So with that.. I guess one could argue that the Marines should worry less about the past and more about the future.  But for some reason they seem to think history is important.  Id be more concerned about wearing someone else's valor awards than I would be about wearing  a different style of a badge Im actually qualified to wear. 

[BillB]

I guess I'm in the very small minority since I did earn the enameled pilot wings. (as a cadet) We laughingly called them Luftwaffe wings which they closely resembled.   

[Flying Pig]

Did you have to take a new Form 5 before you could wear the new ones?   

[Storm Chaser]

I have misgivings about this, but not from any budgetary standpoint or disagreements with any need to preserve history.

My objections center around my belief that it is poor form to wear badges or awards which one did not earn. And I did not earn those wings.

The WWII era wings were awarded to people who earned them under WWII era conditions, using WWII era criteria. The wings I earned, in 1970, were different from what are worn now. When the ones I earned were replaced by different versions, I wore the newer ones, just as people in 1949-50 put aside the enameled wings.

It seems to me that we are turning hard-earned and hard-worn aviation badges into lapel pins or brooches. I can't help but be reminded of Gill Robb Wilson's daughter wearing her CAP uniform to a gold medal presentation wearing her dad's WWII wings - not only did she not earn them, but unless she is a pilot and has earned any version of wings she shouldn't wear them.  But, "cool" seemed to outrank "proper" in that case and seems to reign under the new change. We are combining re-enactment with current service, a bizarre concept, in my opinion. I can't picture the US Army authorizing puttees on uniforms in 2018 to commemorate WWI, either.

I'd totally support the idea of letting CAP members who earned the enameled wings to wear THEIR wings for a year. Or allowing those who earned dropped wings to wear THEIR wings. But, allowing all and sundry to wear SOMEBODY ELSE'S wings? Just doesn't seem right.

This is exactly the way I feel. And while I won't be wearing them, many others who did not earn them will.

Mitchell, I thought these guys were regular US Army.

Continental Color Guard, Honor Guard Company, 4th Battalion, 3rd US Infantry Regiment in

http://www.oldguard.mdw.army.mil/specialty-platoons/continental-color-guard

If they are regular US Army, they are doing just what you said the US Army would not do.

Cite ONE example, please. ONE, of anyone in those units wearing an individual qualification badge on a current uniform, with said badge being one which they did not personally earn.

I'll wait here.

The fact that the army allows the wear of UNIT awards (cords and unit award ribbons)  that they did not personally earn for the express purpose of honoring the history and accomplishments of the unit, set the same type of precedence that CAP is using to allow currently qualified Observers and Pilots to wear historical badges....to honor the history and accomplishments of our organization.

First of all, we are not the Army Auxiliary, so what the Army does sets no precedent for CAP. Second, the Army does not allow members to wear qualification badges if they did not earn them; certainly not historical badges. Third, the Air Force does not do what we are doing here and they would be the ones who could set a precedent for us. Finally, only Air Force retirees can wear historical uniforms or insignias authorized at the time of their retirement according to AFI 36-2903 (and I'm not including reenactments and the like). CAP only allows corporate uniforms.

[lordmonar]

Storm,

I am well aware that we are not the Army Aux.    But Mitchell was asking for an example of the Army wearing them them.

The USAF does do what we are doing here.   Back in my AD days we had warrior Fridays (last Friday of the month) where airman could wear historical uniforms. 


And finally......39-1 and the appropriate ICLs tell us what we can wear.......and they tell us we can wear these historical badges, so 36-2903 says is irrelevant, because we are the CAP not the USAF.