initial term limit for squadron commanders?

[Walkman]

When you look at it from a career standpoint, very few really good leaders stay at the same echelon for long. Most of the dynamic business leaders are on a career path upwards, and tend to promote to higher levels of responsibility on a regular basis. Happens in the RM as well. It's a natural progression that those that lead really well more forward. Plus, how can we develop the new generation of leaders if they don't have the chance to get out there and do it? And a true leader is always mentoring, enabling those they lead to accept higher level of responsibility. This natural flow of things really can't happen in a unit where the leader stays put.

I'd also like to add that IMO, one of the traits of great leadership is the drive forward. I'm not talking about a selfish need for more power, but that kind of grand vision that is bigger than a single unit.

As far as term limits go, I've been in 6 years now, so I haven't seen that many CCs come and go yet. Looking at it that way, I've been in just a little longer than a full term. I'm not experienced enough to say if the 4 year span it just right or not. But looking at it from an outside, pure "leadership principles" perspective, I think a mechanism that enables CCs to move up and new ones to get a chance os a good thing.

[JeffDG]

Why do we bother with commanders anyway?

We don't trust Wing Commanders to replace squadron commanders, apparently they just don't have the requisite judgement to determine if a squadron/cc is still up to the job or has stagnated.

Plenty of folks insist on regulating everything, and in that environment, the role of a commander is really meaningless.  Commanders should be in place to exercise judgement and discretion, yet nobody seems to trust anyone to actually do that, so their judgement and discretion are narrowed and circumscribed to such a degree that the biggest decision that will be available is whether to serve Coke or Pepsi products at the Squadron picnic (after, of course, everyone from the National Commander on down has approved the Risk Management plan for said picnic).

[Eclipse]

CAP has made its own bed in that regard with poor / inconsistent / nonexistent training, a bunch of circular, self-conflicting and
horribly out of date and out of touch regulations, and no culture of mentorship or support of higher HQ.  The common
practice of selecting commanders based on "respiration and gravitational attraction in proper proportions" is a big part of that as well.

The rhetoric is that the unit is the "Heart of CAP", but generally the only contact units get from higher HQ is requests to
backfill data so the next echelon can check its boxes and push the form up.

With that said, at it's core, running a unit administratively is pretty simple and yet we have people who can't even make the minimums
in terms of reporting and other requirements, and so goes the circle of life.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Dunno. I've seen two units with 4 commanders each in the past 10+ years. Seems that in a small, understaffed unit the CC burns out quick. Seems that in large, active units, CCs have a lot of work leading to burnout.

[Eclipse]

The other thing to consider is that from the responses of a few here, people are treating and taking this far too personal.

We need to start treating CAP, especially command and staff positions, more like a professional business relationship and less like
a garden club meeting.  Knock off all the drama and hurt feelings because something you want to do isn't available, or isn't available
on your personal timetable or within your personal budget, or because your time is up and the next guy needs a chance.

[AirAux]

The problem you are forgetting is that this is a volunteer organization.  It is not the military or a corporation wherein we are paid for our efforts.  To not even thank a commander for his work as you replace him is an insult to all that he has done.  And how dare you to tell someone not to take it personal when they have given 35 years to CAP..  You know when people feel unappreciated they will take their volunteer time elsewhere and then what??  Maverick, what was the name of that animal rescue shelter?  I think I'm going to be needing that.

[Walkman]

To not even thank a commander for his work as you replace him is an insult to all that he has done.  And how dare you to tell someone not to take it personal when they have given 35 years to CAP.. 

I don't think anyone is in support of that. Kicking someone to the curb unceremoniously isn't the same as term limits. I'd be ticked of something like that happened to someone I respected.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The problem you are forgetting is that this is a volunteer organization.  It is not the military or a corporation wherein we are paid for our efforts.  To not even thank a commander for his work as you replace him is an insult to all that he has done.  And how dare you to tell someone not to take it personal when they have given 35 years to CAP..  You know when people feel unappreciated they will take their volunteer time elsewhere and then what??  Maverick, what was the name of that animal rescue shelter?  I think I'm going to be needing that.

How do you leap from end of term to "not even a thank you"? What does that even mean?

[Eclipse]

The problem you are forgetting is that this is a volunteer organization.  It is not the military or a corporation wherein we are paid for our efforts.  To not even thank a commander for his work as you replace him is an insult to all that he has done. And how dare you to tell someone not to take it personal when they have given 35 years to CAP..  You know when people feel unappreciated they will take their volunteer time elsewhere and then what??  Maverick, what was the name of that animal rescue shelter?  I think I'm going to be needing that.

You are apparently confusing a personal, specific situation in which someone was slighted and has a right to feel angry, with the idea of term limits as a policy
of refreshing the culture of the organization.  They aren't connected, even a little.

At all.

A commander standing down who has served successfully deserves decorations, appreciation, and if amenable, a voice in his successor.  When I assumed command of a squadron, the commander was much-tenured and beloved.  He received a number of decorations, including an MSA, plaques, several parties, and his change of command was attended by
a very well-known local news person who spoke eloquently regarding his service and experience.  He remained a presence with the unit for a number of years before moving to
wing staff.

If you or someone you know didn't get appreciated, take it up with those who did the deed, and don't confuse one person's negative experience with the organization as a whole.

I also agree that people vote with their feet, and in many cases, that is the best course of action for all involved.

[AirAux]

The national commander was contacted and didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The national commander was contacted and didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

Might have overshot?

[jimmydeanno]

The national commander was contacted and didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

Why don't you just come out and say what is on your mind, instead of dancing around the issue.  It sounds like you have a personal grudge based on, most likely, being replaced as a squadron commander without "so much as a thank you."

If it makes you feel better, I contacted the President and he didn't even come to my change of command.  I even said we'd have punch.

[PHall]

The national commander was contacted and didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

But I guarantee you that your Region and Wing Commanders know about your message to the National Commander.

[Private Investigator]

Where does the ousted Squadron Commander move to?  Serve as a Group or Wing assistant staff officer?  Unfortunately the great majority of Group/Wing/Region staffers don't meet weekly (sometimes monthly or even quarterly!).  You are forcing out a person that has dedicated themselves to the most contact-intensive and active position in the entire organization.  How does a person go from doing something they most likely enjoy and being told "time to go, though we don't know where you should go"??

Some might say that the recently cashiered commander can just pick up a new duty at the squadron.  Others will say "just move up" or "just move on". Unless there is a real plan in place (in writing) that spells out where successful squadron commanders should go once they are drummed out of command, the notion of term limits and replacements are insulting to the majority of commanders that are/have been pushed out to meet the regulation.

I am also getting really tired of being told/ reminded about the timeframe involving commander burnout.  Those are opinions.  Just because a commander was burned out at the four year mark and his squadron exploded does not equal the organizational norm. 

Perhaps we should first look at term limits being placed on Group/ Wing and Region staff positions. If a person has only served on the staff at wing for the past twenty years and has not stepped once into a local squadron, that is far worse than a squadron commander with five years at one unit.

CAP Command is different from Military Command. One of the finest Senior Squadrons I know have maybe ten former Squadron Commanders in its membership. For some reason people think the Squadron Commander has to stay in place or move up to Group or Wing and that being a Squadron Commander makes somebody the perfect CAP officer. It does not. It all goes back to the 'rule of five'.   

[Private Investigator]

As I said, booted out without even a thank you.  We are a volunteer organization and upper menagement needs to remember that.  Eclipse, as you noted the squadron was failing, at least by someone's standards.  Small composite squadron started by the commander 11 years ago.  Probably much more typical than a squadron of 50 or so.  Size varied from 15 to 40, a one time high.  A failed squadron?  Ask the senior member that just finished his first year of flight training and was assigned to McGuire AFB for DC-10 fueler training.  He joined because he wanted to fly for the Air Force.  Ask the other senior member that is halfway through his first year of flight training in Texas,  He joined as a cadet 8 years ago because he wanted to fly for the Air Force.  Ask the second year USAFA cadet that joined as a cadet 6 years ago because he wanted to go to the academy.  Ask the 7-8 active duty members that all joined as cadets because they wanted to join the military some day.  Ask the parents of the 2-3 cadets who had been in trouble with the law and this commander gave them another chance when another squadron woldn't accept them (and they turned out nicely).  Ask the commanders that called this commander between midnight and three in the morning to take some of his sqyadron members and work ELT's.  I could go on, but, obviously CAP has redefined the concept of success..

So you never worked in "Quality Control" have you? 

[Private Investigator]

We don't trust Wing Commanders to replace squadron commanders, apparently they just don't have the requisite judgement to determine if a squadron/cc is still up to the job or has stagnated.

From a reality check how many here would fire somebody from doing a bad job? I go to McDonalds and the coke machine is giving watery coke and the guy fixes it and I get a drink. A hole in the wall place, the kid tells me I am to picky, I tell him I want my $1 back.

It is all about Quality Control. How many complaints should a Squadron Commander have before he is dismissed? Having four Spaatz Cadets over the course of their 35 year career make them 'bullet proof'? 

[Private Investigator]

Dunno. I've seen two units with 4 commanders each in the past 10+ years. Seems that in a small, understaffed unit the CC burns out quick. Seems that in large, active units, CCs have a lot of work leading to burnout.

BTW, the average term for a Wing/Region Commander is 23 months. What does that tell you?   

[Private Investigator]

The national commander was contacted and didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

Dude, one thousand, six hundred plus Squadrons and he did not respond to you. WHOA !!! Stop everything. At Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron, we have the General on speed dial. 

[Private Investigator]

The national commander was contacted and didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

Why don't you just come out and say what is on your mind, instead of dancing around the issue.  It sounds like you have a personal grudge based on, most likely, being replaced as a squadron commander without "so much as a thank you."

If it makes you feel better, I contacted the President and he didn't even come to my change of command.  I even said we'd have punch.

RODLM.O

The punch, that is funny on both coasts and Hawaii too   :clap:

[a2capt]

The punch, that is funny on both coasts and Hawaii too   :clap:

Do not taunt the Flying Pineapple.