SMVs Revoked?

[SarDragon]

Google "Ray Hayden", you'll get in the top 5 on the list.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Very long story short, Levitch was one of the Original GOB Club, he and Not named got a Lifesavers Medal for directing traffic in a car crash.

Its on hayden's website.

A lifesaving Medal would have been appropriate.  He got the Silver Medal of Valor, along with The Nameless One

[Eagle400]

I do have my private opinions about this whole situation and they are private. I do not feel that it is appropriate for me as a recipient of the SMV to comment on someone elses validity or truthfullness about their award whether they are active or former members of this great organization. I also feel that as a member of National Staff I should keep my feelings to myself.

Okay, and that's fine.  But I cannot let this discussion continue without posting the CAPF-120 containing the details of the actions of TP, Levitch and Parker in this matter. 



I'm curious as to how one person is able to hold up an entire van with four passengers inside.  One would think the van is too heavy to hold up even without passengers inside.  And it is thought provoking how the "witness" was able to get into a position to hold the van up and prevent it from rolling over once more, because when a van rolls there is too much momentum for it to be stopped by anything as fragile as a human body.        

If the van was leaning at an angle on uneven ground, it obviously wasn't on the highway.  And in the last sentence of the first paragraph, it even says that the "witness" saw it come to rest in the median.  Rescuing accident victims of a vehicle on the median is not as dangerous as rescuing accident victims of a vehicle on the highway; you are more likely to be struck by an oncoming vehicle if you are on the highway.  So that right there should have made these "heroic actions" more deserving of a Lifesaving Medal than either the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor.

In 1999, there was an officer and cadet in CAWG who came across an accident site where the car came to rest on the actual highway.  Cars were wizzing past them left and right, but they left their vehicle and came to the aid of the victims knowing full well that they could easily be struck and killed at any time.  They managed to pull the victims from the damaged vehicle and bring them to safety amid the traffic.  What did they both get for their bravery?  The Bronze Medal of Valor.

Strange how three members aiding accident victims in the median of a highway get the Silver Medal of Valor, but two members aiding accident victims directly on the higway get the Bronze Medal of Valor.  So the people who were in less danger got a higher award than the people who were in greater danger.       

With regard to the rescue of said "victims", if a person was physically able to hold up a van with four passengers by himself, would he be able to continue holding up the van after Col Levitch (who is very heavy-set) crawled in the van to rescue the victims?  Remember, the justification statement doesn't say if or when the "witness" stopped holding the van up.

Levitch probably weighs at least 250 pounds.  So I highly doubt he was able to squeeze his large body into the side rear window of a van.  Furthermore, why would he pass the injured passengers through a small rear side window if he was not able to get into a small rear side window himself?  Logic would say that he would find the large window he used to get in, and use that as an exit point for the victims. 

And while it is probable that the "doctor" (who saw the accident while passing by) stopped to offer help, I doubt that a "National Guard Unit" (presumably a convoy) enroute to the scene of a major national disaster would stop for something like this.  And what about the "passenger" who was injured so badly that she could not be moved from the vehicle?  I would think that the "doctor" would have been able to remove the victim safely and treat her before the "National Guard Unit", "Highway Patrol officer", "fire trucks", "rescue vehicle" and "rescue unit" arrived.  The justification statement does say that the "doctor" was directed to the "fourth victim" trapped in the vehicle, but nowhere does it say what happened to this "fourth victim."  Also, the justification statement says "fire trucks", which is interesting because I've never seen more than one fire truck at the scene of any accident involving one vehicle.

If I was the one reviewing this CAPF-120, I would ask TP, Parker and Levitch to each provide me (on their own) the names of everyone involved.  If the names of those involved did not match, I would send the CAPF-120 and each seperate list of those names to the CAP/IG as proof of a fraudulent act committed by all three officers.  I would also contact the CAP National Legal Officer to subopena all records of the accident collected by the emergency responders, so there is proof from a credible third party that the accident never happened.            

[JayT]

  Also, the justification statement says "fire trucks", which is interesting because I've never seen more than one fire truck at the scene of any accident involving one vehicle.

        

I disagree. I've seen plenty of single car accident where more then one enginers or trucks roll up.

[isuhawkeye]

my district has a several mile stretch of I-80 where two departments simultaneously respond.  This often brings 2 chiefs, 2 engines, a light rescue, and as many as two ambulances.  All for one accident. 

once the first units arrive.  they either block traffic, or place the rest back in service

[mikeylikey]

Very long story short, Levitch was one of the Original GOB Club, he and Not named got a Lifesavers Medal for directing traffic in a car crash.

Its on hayden's website.

A lifesaving Medal would have been appropriate.  He got the Silver Medal of Valor, along with The Nameless One

Agreed!  But the Commander always gets the highest medal, ribbon or decoration that can be awarded without people calling "BS".  You were in the military, you know how that works.  I totally agree they should have gotten something less than they did, but they didn't. 

[Cecil DP]

I'm wondering why they were headed for JAX Airport, when all live in South Florida. If they were driving they would have been headed to I -75. that would have had them cutting diagonically across the state, rather than going east and than another 350 miles towards Miami.

[mikeylikey]

^ You win the prize today!  You figured out why there is such controversy around the awarding of the decorations.  Many things do not add up. 

[JoeTomasone]

Incidentally, the decision on how much fire apparatus to roll to a scene lies in the hands of the chief.    One of the departments back in NY customarily rolled everything with wheels to pretty much anything.   Small brush fire?   3 pumpers, a ladder, 2 ambulances, etc...  Never did find out why; I know my department would have sent a pumper and *maybe* kept one on standby in case it flared.

[Gunner C]

In the same light as the SMVs above, there ws a SMV awarded last summer to a NHQ officer who IIRC applied CPR and administered an IV on a commercial flight.  What the heck?  That was (at the most) a Cert of Lifesaving.  When I saw that one, I knew that the system was broke.

GC

[notaNCO forever]

 Thoughs that have power get the good awards.

[James Shaw]

In the same light as the SMVs above, there ws a SMV awarded last summer to a NHQ officer who IIRC applied CPR and administered an IV on a commercial flight.  What the heck?  That was (at the most) a Cert of Lifesaving.  When I saw that one, I knew that the system was broke.

GC

Actually it was the BMV to a female member. Yes she is NHQ staff. The writeup was only partially complete because the rest of the information could not  be released as per directed by the FAA.

Thoughs that have power get the good awards.

That is a large blanket statement to make and demeans those who work hard to achieve and complete their work to the best of their ability. You dont have to have power to achieve Level 1 or Level 5. It depends on the individual motivation to advance and complete the requirements. Give them and yourself more credit than that.

[SDF_Specialist]

Thoughs that have power get the good awards.

That is a large blanket statement to make and demeans those who work hard to achieve and complete their work to the best of their ability. You dont have to have power to achieve Level 1 or Level 5. It depends on the individual motivation to advance and complete the requirements. Give them and yourself more credit than that.

Well said Major. We can't look down on everyone just because of a little bad publicity because of a few members. We are over 50,000 members strong. Just because one or two screw up, doesn't mean the other 48 or 49,000 are horrible.

[jb512]

I hesitate to comment on such a touchy subject, and I'd never undermine another person's award when I was not present at the event, or for the approval.  Many people have to be involved in the process, so obviously someone saw something that merited it.

My concern is the inconsistency with these MV awards and the ease in which some are given.  To me, "distinguished and conspicuous heroic action, at the risk of life, above and beyond the call of normal duty" is where you die while saving someone's life, or come pretty d@#n close to it.  

Even for the BMV, "heroic action where danger to self is probable and known" to me means that you're running into a burning building and dragging the little old lady out with your clothes singed, or breaking up a fight at a biker bar and holding somebody down until the cops show up.  That's pretty much probable and known danger.

I can see where entering a crashed van to pull victims out would be hazardous without the proper safety equipment, but in most cases you're not supposed to do that.  Vehicles don't explode like in the movies and unless it's on fire, with the amount of trauma caused during a rollover, it's best to leave them where they're at until they can be stabilized and removed properly.  I guess it would depend on the extent of the leaking fuel that was mentioned.

Maybe it's just me... and none of us were there, so who knows.

[RiverAux]

The supposed circumstances of these awards were actually sort of typical of what we usually see them given out for. 

[M.S.]

I dont know if C.A.P. is necessarily alone on this type of debating though.  I've heard AF personnel complain about how some of their officers seem to have picked up bronze stars (without the V device) pretty easily while they were downrange... for things they thought were basically routine and not quite meeting the "heroic or meritorious achievement or service, ...while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States..." qualifications.

I guess its always "YMMV"! 

[SAR-EMT1]

Two things,

1) to reiterate what others have said: many depts will roll everything to anything.
Got a brush fire or 1 car MVA? - the nearest town will roll everything they've got.
Got a structure fire? Automatic MABIS activation (calls out the whole county)
Got a fight at a local bar? every cop on duty in the county will respond along with all the ambulances

2 ) Even though I have crawled into busted cars and got soaked in gas (and blood) off duty or gone into a burning house without bunker gear to make sure everyone is out; I would feel kind of dirty about submitting any paperwork for a medal,  because I work full time in public safety.
Maybe if one day I do end up almost killing myself, then I might submit papers, but that hasnt happened yet.

Dont get me wrong, I love recognition, but not for an action that by this point in my life might as well be DNA instinctive.

Knowing that Pineda is/was a cop I see no reason whatsoever why he deserved anything more then a pat on the back for assuming control over that incident.

I say that as one pro refering to another, because it should be expected behavior of any Public Safety type ESPECIALLY a LawDog.

YMMV

[ColonelJack]

I can see where entering a crashed van to pull victims out would be hazardous without the proper safety equipment, but in most cases you're not supposed to do that.  Vehicles don't explode like in the movies and unless it's on fire, with the amount of trauma caused during a rollover, it's best to leave them where they're at until they can be stabilized and removed properly.  I guess it would depend on the extent of the leaking fuel that was mentioned.

While I fully agree with you regarding the issuance of the Medal of Valor, the main reason I posted the initial question regarding these particular SMVs centers around the widely-held belief that the accident in question never actually happened.  While NOTF and Mr. Hayden are reviled (and in many cases rightly so), I haven't found any examples of their being just plain wrong about something -- in fact, their accuracy rate is rather high.  Both "sources" say the incident for which the three received the SMV did not happen.  And the rumor mill is now relating that NHQ has revoked the SMVs issued. 

Whether or not the incident as reported rates a Medal of Valor, a Lifesaving Ribbon, or just a pat on the back and an "attaboy!" isn't the issue.  The issue (as far as I see it) is one of stolen valor; awarding CAP's highest decoration for something that may not have ever taken place.

Jack

[Gunner C]

^^Amen, Brother!

GC

[O-Rex]

One would think that there is a system of checks & balances in place to prevent such a thing. . . . .