Golf shirts winning in LA

[RiverAux]

This photo from a LA flight clinic featured on CAP News Online http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3560&year=2007&month=9 seems to show that the golf shirt has gained a sizable lead over the AF flight suit in LA.  There are at least twice as many golf shirts as AF flight suits. 

I'd say that matches up pretty close with what I see around me as well. 

Does it mean anything on a galactic scale?  I don't know.  But, it certainly shows that in Wings where CAP members have a choice about what they fly in (not the case in some places), they want the golf shirt. 

[Larry Mangum]

In the pacific Region, per the region supplement to CAPR 60-1, the nomex flight suit is the "approved" uniform for flight activities in the region.

[Flying Pig]

It tells me CAP is trying to adopt civilian appeareance.  I think it looks sloppy.  Showing up on a mission wearing the polo shirt while working with other agencies is going to make us look silly.   

[Eclipse]

It tells me CAP is trying to adopt civilian appeareance.  I think it looks sloppy.  Showing up on a mission wearing the polo shirt while working with other agencies is going to make us look silly.   

No, its going to make you look like a lot of the other agencies - most PD/FD, the ARC, FEMA, and similar agencies have a golf shirt combo, especially for longer-term missions in "uncomfortable" environments.

I wouldn't take the photo as an indication of the "win" of the golf shirt, (as if it was a contest). Unless they were going to actually fly that day, the flight suit is an inappropriate uniform for a classroom environment.
They look sloppy and as you can see, at least one member still hasn't gotten the 3-yea old word on the proper insignia.

[Flying Pig]

I guess it depends on where you are.  Where I am, agencies dont wear polo shirts. 

[RiverAux]

every flight clinic I've ever heard about features flying as an integral part of the activities. 

[jb512]

It tells me CAP is trying to adopt civilian appeareance.  I think it looks sloppy.  Showing up on a mission wearing the polo shirt while working with other agencies is going to make us look silly.   

No, its going to make you look like a lot of the other agencies - most PD/FD, the ARC, FEMA, and similar agencies have a golf shirt combo, especially for longer-term missions in "uncomfortable" environments.

I wouldn't take the photo as an indication of the "win" of the golf shirt, (as if it was a contest). Unless they were going to actually fly that day, the flight suit is an inappropriate uniform for a classroom environment.
They look sloppy and as you can see, at least one member still hasn't gotten the 3-yea old word on the proper insignia.

I agree that the golf shirt for anything other than PT night looks too casual.  Things may be different in different areas, but most "working" personnel around here from the PD, SO, FD, EMS, etc., wear a duty uniform.  The only people I've seen in polo shirts are admin types who sit behind a desk all day.  I know that my SO doesn't authorize a polo for anything other than hands-on-training environments where a duty uniform would get easily damaged or dirty.

I would prefer that we look as professional as we can especially when working with other agencies and there's nothing wrong with a flight suit in a classroom.  We are a flying organization.

[Grumpy]

Tell that to the Ground Teams or the UDF teams.  Tell it to my composite squadron that doesn't have any pilots.  The only uniforms we wear are BDUs, Service Uniform and yes, the Golf shirt/gray slacks.

I've been wearing the blue suit for 48 years now and I like to be comfortable.  We meet on Camp Pendleton and the commanding general has put out the order that the Marines CAN NOT wear BDUs into town except straight to duty and home.  Therefore, out of respect for them and the fact that I don't eat until after the meeting, I wear the Golf Shirt combo.

If I'm going to a staff meeting at higher headquarters or on a visit, I'll wear the blue suit.  Also, regs state that if you are flying somewhere, say a conference, the Golf Shirt is authorized.

I'm getting old and, as my nick name implies, Grumpy but if I can be comfortable I'll take that anytime.

[RiverAux]

I suppose the reason I brought this up is to show that those who want to see AF-style uniforms dominate CAP life, the only way it is going to happen is through regulation.  Obviously, CAP members are voting with their pocketbook to switch to non-military uniforms when possible.   

So, those of us who believe in keeping up our historic traditions need to realize that conformity and persuasion aren't going to do it.

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do. 

[Eagle400]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do.

I don't see what's bogus about it.  Which would you rather burn in, a nomex flight suit or polyester pants that melt on contact with fire?  Don't forget the cotton polo shirt, which will also burn.

I say flightsuits for aircrew and BDUs for mission base personnel, or no coverage.  Part of the problem with people overwhelmingly showing up in the polo shirt uniform is that they can still receive coverage when wearing it on CAP missions and activities.  I say "No more!" 

Note: flightsuits and BDUs would include the blue flight suit and BBDU for those who can't wear the AF uniforms.   

[jeders]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do.

I don't see what's bogus about it.  Which would you rather burn in, a nomex flight suit or polyester pants that melt on contact with fire?  Don't forget the cotton polo shirt, which will also burn.

I say flightsuits for aircrew and BDUs for mission base personnel, or no coverage.  Part of the problem with people overwhelmingly showing up in the polo shirt uniform is that they can still receive coverage when wearing it on CAP missions and activities.  I say "No more!"   

That's dumb.

I hate the look of the polo shirt as much as the next guy, but saying no more coverage if you wear it is just gonna be shooting us in the foot. The fact is that that is one picture. If you went somewhere else, I'd bet that you would find the opposite to be true. There will always be individual places where one uniform is desired over the other. In my squadron it's almost impossible to get people into a service uniform instead of utility uniforms.

At a recent recruiting event, i requested that the other person, let's call him Lt Fuzzy, wear the aviator combo. He refused because he would rather wear the BBDUs than look for his aviator shirt. At my previous squadron, the only ones that wore the flight suit were the AD guys who just got off duty and were still in their actual AF flight suit. It just goes to show that there will always be people who want military style uniforms, and people who want civilian style uniforms, this is just an extension of that.

Now granted, I do think that when flying, only a flight suit, whether it's AF or corporate, should be allowed, and that's just for safety.

[Nomex Maximus]

Obvious problem with the polo shirt is that you don't know who you are talking to - not only does it not have the grade on the shirt but some of them don't even have a name. And face it, the polo shirt is "old people" clothing. If you like it, fine, but it does tend to look like something "old" people would wear. Nothing wrong with "old" people by the way... I just think almost anything other uniform would look better.

[SarDragon]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do.

I don't see what's bogus about it.  Which would you rather burn in, a nomex flight suit or polyester pants that melt on contact with fire?  Don't forget the cotton polo shirt, which will also burn.

I say flightsuits for aircrew and BDUs for mission base personnel, or no coverage.  Part of the problem with people overwhelmingly showing up in the polo shirt uniform is that they can still receive coverage when wearing it on CAP missions and activities.  I say "No more!"   

Get real!

Do you own a CAP polo (golf) shirt? If not, then stop telling what it's made of. If you do, look at the tag again - It's 60% cotton, 40% polyester, so it's not the best thing to fly in. However, your reasoning about cotton is flawed.

Have you ever flown for a living in a Nomex required environment? When I did, the required clothing under the flight suit was cotton. That's right, cotton, because it will not burn as quickly as synthetics, and provides an extra layer of insulation. Do your own flame tests on samples of different fabrics and see which hold up the best/longest. Cotton wins.

Now let's talk about mission base. There are folks there who do mostly admin level work and require none of the "advantages" that flight suits or BDUs provide in their usual environments. The polo/golf shirt provides a comfortable utilitarian uniform at a reasonable cost. Beats having to wear all the bling in an environment that doesn't require or need it.

Since I got interrupted while replying, I'll address the "old" thing. Why does it matter? I walk in the door in a polo shirt, and people know two things - I'm a senior member, and I'm planning on working inside at mission base. I'm terrible with names, and like nametags, but it's no big deal if there aren't any. I'll learn the names of the folks I'm working with, and get on with business.

[Flying Pig]

I fly about 6 hours per day in a flight suit....with a varied assortment of underoos. I think it would be harder to work in a polo shirt.  But thats just me.  Of course, my department doesnt REQUIRE all leather boots either.

[jimmydeanno]

If we are trying to get closer ties with the Air Force, we should probably wear the PC more often.

The last airshow I went to, the Air Force recruiters were wearing polo shirts and khakis...

[Eagle400]

If we are trying to get closer ties with the Air Force, we should probably wear the PC more often.

The last airshow I went to, the Air Force recruiters were wearing polo shirts and khakis...

No, it means that the CAP polo shirt uniform should be only worn for recruiting activities.  That would put CAP more in line with the Air Force, but wouldn't make the ties any closer. 

Having better leaders, a fair membership termination process, way better oversight by the command echelons, and better enforcement of the regulations already in place will get CAP closer ties with the Air Force.     

[california IC]

In fact, if we have to use the bogus "safety" argument that they're using in Pacific Region, to get people in flightsuits, that may be just what we have to do. 

As one that has received third degree burns it goes far beyond safety.  The cost in dollars alone to treat a victim of a preventable burn could be less than that the cost of one hundred nomex flightsuits.  That's just the cost of the treatment, not the loss of earnings, pain, disfigurement.  The Phoenix Fire Department in the late 70's and early 80's found the cost of just one burned ear exceeded the cost to buy nomex hoods for all their firefighters.  In PCR, they have taken the choice of nomex away, and I personally think that's a good thing.  It would be a shame to lose an aircrew member from a burn after he survived a crash in his aircraft.  Nomex  can buy a crash victim a little extra time to get out of the aircraft or maybe a chance to pull another crewmember out. 
I won't touch the Polo question....just like the nomex, it is a no win situation.

[RiverAux]

No reason to start the whole Nomex argument up again...I just called it bogus because NHQ and the AF have obviously examined this issue and if they thought that wearing Nomex would make any difference in terms of injury and associated medical costs, or death and associated insurance claims, it would be a requirement throughout CAP and not just in 1 region.

[california IC]

I guess the cost of a Phoenix firefighter is greater than a CAP volunteer...go figure!
Seems the bean counters have crunched the numbers.

[jb512]

Tell that to the Ground Teams or the UDF teams.  Tell it to my composite squadron that doesn't have any pilots.  The only uniforms we wear are BDUs, Service Uniform and yes, the Golf shirt/gray slacks.

I'd be happy to tell them, but in the proper context.  The AF is a flying organization as well, but they do have ground assets.  One is not more important than the other.

I've been wearing the blue suit for 48 years now and I like to be comfortable.  We meet on Camp Pendleton and the commanding general has put out the order that the Marines CAN NOT wear BDUs into town except straight to duty and home.  Therefore, out of respect for them and the fact that I don't eat until after the meeting, I wear the Golf Shirt combo.

If I'm going to a staff meeting at higher headquarters or on a visit, I'll wear the blue suit.  Also, regs state that if you are flying somewhere, say a conference, the Golf Shirt is authorized.

I'm getting old and, as my nick name implies, Grumpy but if I can be comfortable I'll take that anytime.

And I respect that and the regs, I just don't completely agree with the concept.  Maybe it's me, but the only time my blues are uncomfortable is when I'm wearing garters.