CAP Heraldry Standards?

[Garibaldi]

Clearly, it stood for Georgia...

Yeah, I got that much, but what did it represent other than that? Nothing of historical value or CAP-ness.

The IL Wing patch was an eagle with the state of IL at its center. Now that eagle is inside the shield of the new patch.

I guess the point to be made was that many wing patches had or have nothing to do with CAP, but things that are in popular culture and whatnot, as well as symbols of the state. I still don't get WIWG's patch. Wisconsin with a big 42 in the center, but the charter number begins with 48. Maybe it's a GLR thing?

Most of the wing patches that have numbers on them reflect the old region/wing numbering system that was used way back when. For instance, Illinois has a 61 on the patch even though its charter numbers began with 11 until we started this GLR-IL-XXX nonsense. The 61 stood for 6th Region, 1st Wing. And WI has a 62 not a 42 on their wing patch.

Many of these wing patches reflect something of the state. Take KY for instance. Yes, the Kentucky Derby is a big event, but the patch could also reflect Kentucky's fame for breeding thoroughbred horses which is worldwide. Ask Queen Elizabeth.

Yes, many of our wing patches don't reflect any direct relation to CAP, but they do reflect the message that the members of the wings that adopted them wanted to convey. That is "This is who we are!" I like the old patches. I sometimes think from some of the discussions I hear about these things that they are less about wanting to meet the AF heraldry standard than some Wing King wanting to make his mark. For years after they leave, they can walk around and point to some member wearing the new patch and say, "I did that.".

Sorry, I just looked at an old WIWG patch I had, and it was a 62, not 42. My bad. ARWG used to have a Razorback over a white Arkansas silhouette, and now it's a circle with a reverse tab or whatever under it, with the state flag in the middle.

[ColonelJack]

When I was in GAWG, our patch was a white circle, bordered with blue, with a BIG red GA inside and the blue and red prop in the center. What did this have to do with ANYTHING? I never found out. Made no sense to me whatsoever, but then it was redesigned sometime in the 90s to a white building or something on a lighter blue background. Then, more recently, it was redesigned again to a shield configuration, despite a grass-roots campaign by a former Spaatz cadet to go back to the GA patch. I still don't know what any of it means. But it made sense to someone, at some point.

While the first GAWG patch was, indeed, sort of funny-looking (IMHO) but clearly stood for "Georgia", the second one - the one you described as a white building or something - is actually the central design of the Georgia state seal.  It's three columns, representing "Wisdom, Justice, Moderation," with the overarching "Constitution" and a Minuteman standing between two of the columns.  The current GAWG patch is a portion of the newly-adopted state flag in the shield design.

Jack

[SarDragon]

Clearly, it stood for Georgia...

Yeah, I got that much, but what did it represent other than that? Nothing of historical value or CAP-ness.

The IL Wing patch was an eagle with the state of IL at its center. Now that eagle is inside the shield of the new patch.

I guess the point to be made was that many wing patches had or have nothing to do with CAP, but things that are in popular culture and whatnot, as well as symbols of the state. I still don't get WIWG's patch. Wisconsin with a big 42 in the center, but the charter number begins with 48. Maybe it's a GLR thing?

The numbers on wing patches have to do with the original numbering system for wings. 42 would be Area(?) 4, Wing 2. Illinois is Area 6, Wing 1. NJ is Area 2, Wing 2.

The new numbering system started with an alphabetical list of the Wings, and assigned numbers from 1 to 52. Exceptions are AK, HI, and PR. DC fits in as National Capitol Wing.

Here's a monograph that explains it all.

[Garibaldi]

When I was in GAWG, our patch was a white circle, bordered with blue, with a BIG red GA inside and the blue and red prop in the center. What did this have to do with ANYTHING? I never found out. Made no sense to me whatsoever, but then it was redesigned sometime in the 90s to a white building or something on a lighter blue background. Then, more recently, it was redesigned again to a shield configuration, despite a grass-roots campaign by a former Spaatz cadet to go back to the GA patch. I still don't know what any of it means. But it made sense to someone, at some point.

While the first GAWG patch was, indeed, sort of funny-looking (IMHO) but clearly stood for "Georgia", the second one - the one you described as a white building or something - is actually the central design of the Georgia state seal.  It's three columns, representing "Wisdom, Justice, Moderation," with the overarching "Constitution" and a Minuteman standing between two of the columns.  The current GAWG patch is a portion of the newly-adopted state flag in the shield design.

Jack

I was wondering if you were going to shed some light on this for me.

[skymaster]

When I was in GAWG, our patch was a white circle, bordered with blue, with a BIG red GA inside and the blue and red prop in the center. What did this have to do with ANYTHING? I never found out. Made no sense to me whatsoever, but then it was redesigned sometime in the 90s to a white building or something on a lighter blue background. Then, more recently, it was redesigned again to a shield configuration, despite a grass-roots campaign by a former Spaatz cadet to go back to the GA patch. I still don't know what any of it means. But it made sense to someone, at some point.

While the first GAWG patch was, indeed, sort of funny-looking (IMHO) but clearly stood for "Georgia", the second one - the one you described as a white building or something - is actually the central design of the Georgia state seal.  It's three columns, representing "Wisdom, Justice, Moderation," with the overarching "Constitution" and a Minuteman standing between two of the columns.  The current GAWG patch is a portion of the newly-adopted state flag in the shield design.

Jack

I was wondering if you were going to shed some light on this for me.

Actually, that was GAWG patch with the "GA" done up in a Civil Defense font with a prop and circle in the centre was not adopted until late 1950, and was technically the SECOND Georgia Wing patch. The FIRST Georgia Wing Patch (in two variants), worn on CAP uniforms from 1941-1950 was the state seal, surrounded by a circle that read "GEORGIA STATE DEFENSE CORPS", and also "GEORGIA STATE GUARD/GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", because from 1941-1950, Georgia Wing CAP was the Air Division of the Georgia State Guard, the same state military organisation that exists as the Georgia State Defense Force now. Currently, the Georgia State Air Guard consists of only 2 officers: whomever is the sitting GAWG Commander, who is legally appointed a Colonel and aide-de-camp to the Governor (and who wears the current CAP uniform); and the Georgia Adjutant General, MGEN Butterworth, who wears an AF Blue uniform with State of Georgia Buttons, two metal stars on each epaulet, and bright silver "GA" collar brass in place of the US ones.

[skymaster]

When I was in GAWG, our patch was a white circle, bordered with blue, with a BIG red GA inside and the blue and red prop in the center. What did this have to do with ANYTHING? I never found out. Made no sense to me whatsoever, but then it was redesigned sometime in the 90s to a white building or something on a lighter blue background. Then, more recently, it was redesigned again to a shield configuration, despite a grass-roots campaign by a former Spaatz cadet to go back to the GA patch. I still don't know what any of it means. But it made sense to someone, at some point.

While the first GAWG patch was, indeed, sort of funny-looking (IMHO) but clearly stood for "Georgia", the second one - the one you described as a white building or something - is actually the central design of the Georgia state seal.  It's three columns, representing "Wisdom, Justice, Moderation," with the overarching "Constitution" and a Minuteman standing between two of the columns.  The current GAWG patch is a portion of the newly-adopted state flag in the shield design.

Jack

I was wondering if you were going to shed some light on this for me.

Actually, that was GAWG patch with the "GA" done up in a Civil Defense font with a prop and circle in the centre was not adopted until late 1950, and was technically the SECOND Georgia Wing patch. The FIRST Georgia Wing Patch (in two variants), worn on CAP uniforms from 1941-1950 was the state seal, surrounded by a circle that read "GEORGIA STATE DEFENSE CORPS", and also "GEORGIA STATE GUARD/GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", because from 1941-1950, Georgia Wing CAP was the Air Division of the Georgia State Guard, the same state military organisation that exists as the Georgia State Defense Force now. Currently, the Georgia State Air Guard consists of only 2 officers: whomever is the sitting GAWG Commander, who is legally appointed a Colonel and aide-de-camp to the Governor (and who wears the current CAP uniform); and the Georgia Adjutant General, MGEN Butterworth, who wears an AF Blue uniform with State of Georgia Buttons, two metal stars on each epaulet, and bright silver "GA" collar brass in place of the US ones.

Here is a picture of the first variant of the 1941-1950 Georgia Wing Patch:


And here is that Wing Patch as worn on flight clothing at the CAP Tow Target Base in Albany, GA in 1943, by our first GAWG Commander, LTC Winship Nunnally and another GAWG CAP officer:


I think that this one is that you might have been thinking of as the first GAWG patch, and you are correct in one sense of the word; it was the first GAWG patch worn on an Air Force blue Uniform, an the one worn for the longest period of CAP history so far:
 

[SarDragon]

According to Major Lee Regan's work, the bottom in the preceding post is the first Georgia Wing patch, dating from 1950. There is no mention of the GSDC patch, apparently because it was not a CAP patch.

[skymaster]

According to Major Lee Regan's work, the bottom in the preceding post is the first Georgia Wing patch, dating from 1950. There is no mention of the GSDC patch, apparently because it was not a CAP patch.

Well, it could be argued that, if a uniform item was mandated either by order or regulation, by competent military authority (state OR federal), in wartime no less, as a legally required part of a CAP uniform of the period within that state, that makes that item a CAP uniform item. That designator can very well be the difference between being considered a "lawful combatant" covered by the Geneva Convention, or a spy/saboteur to be shot on sight.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Skymaster-

The information you posted regarding the GA CAP wing, it can be argued that GA Wing did not exist until after the creation of CAP since there was no mention of CAP in either the seal or the info you posted.

Is/are there any letters, memos, or orders that state something similar to "the GA Guard is attached to CAP?" Or like other units that flew during 1941-1950 used the triangular propeller inside a blue circle?

Flyer

[skymaster]

Skymaster-

The information you posted regarding the GA CAP wing, it can be argued that GA Wing did not exist until after the creation of CAP since there was no mention of CAP in either the seal or the info you posted.

Is/are there any letters, memos, or orders that state something similar to "the GA Guard is attached to CAP?" Or like other units that flew during 1941-1950 used the triangular propeller inside a blue circle?

Flyer

It had to do with state law that was (an still is) in effect in the state of Georgia. Due to some certain "unpleasantness" from 1861-1865, it is ILLEGAL for a resident of the state to perform military drill, or wear a military uniform of any type, or carry even deactivated or replica weapons in a formation, unless that person is a member of the organised militia of the state. That was why all GAWG officers wore the GSDC device and held commissions in the Georgia State Guard 1941-1950. Otherwise, most of our programs would have been a violation of state law. It is also, BTW, why all GAWG vehicles carry a State of Georgia government tag, and is part of the reason why the newest wing patch doesn't say "CAP" on it anywhere.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sounds like it would be easier to remove the law...

[RiverAux]

It had to do with state law that was (an still is) in effect in the state of Georgia. Due to some certain "unpleasantness" from 1861-1865, it is ILLEGAL for a resident of the state to perform military drill, or wear a military uniform of any type, or carry even deactivated or replica weapons in a formation, unless that person is a member of the organised militia of the state. That was why all GAWG officers wore the GSDC device and held commissions in the Georgia State Guard 1941-1950. Otherwise, most of our programs would have been a violation of state law. It is also, BTW, why all GAWG vehicles carry a State of Georgia government tag, and is part of the reason why the newest wing patch doesn't say "CAP" on it anywhere.

Hmm, I'm not sure that I'm buying that explanation, especially the part about that still being the law unless you are alleging that all GA CAP members are breaking the law every meeting night....

BTW, it is pretty common for wing patches to not mention CAP. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

BTW, it is pretty common for wing patches to not mention CAP.

Which is part of the issue I have. They should all have something to do with CAP. Or atleast CAP history and tradition, or aerospace history, or SAR.

[a2capt]

They mostly do.. since it's beens said that a picture is worth more than words .. it doesn't have to say it, to say it.

[RiverAux]

BTW, it is pretty common for wing patches to not mention CAP.

Which is part of the issue I have. They should all have something to do with CAP. Or atleast CAP history and tradition, or aerospace history, or SAR.

Why in the world should a Wing patch mention CAP?  Does every AF wing patch reference the USAF? 
All those other big name tapes and patches on our uniform do a good enough job advertising that we are in CAP -- no need to put it on a wing patch too.

Now, if a wing WANTS to put CAP on their patch, I'm ok with that even if it is a little redundant. 

[ol'fido]

BTW, it is pretty common for wing patches to not mention CAP.

Which is part of the issue I have. They should all have something to do with CAP. Or atleast CAP history and tradition, or aerospace history, or SAR.

Why in the world should a Wing patch mention CAP?  Does every AF wing patch reference the USAF? 
All those other big name tapes and patches on our uniform do a good enough job advertising that we are in CAP -- no need to put it on a wing patch too.

Now, if a wing WANTS to put CAP on their patch, I'm ok with that even if it is a little redundant.

Which is why a LOT of USAF wing,command, and organization patches look pretty much the same. In other words, BORING.

[RiverAux]

They would look more exciting if each had "USAF" or "Air Force" on them?

[ol'fido]

No they would look better if they had a little more originality to them.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I went online, searched the Georgia Code, which is the State law. It does not mention CAP. Maybe it does somewhere, but a quick search would/should have yielded something...

Flyer

[skymaster]

It had to do with state law that was (an still is) in effect in the state of Georgia. Due to some certain "unpleasantness" from 1861-1865, it is ILLEGAL for a resident of the state to perform military drill, or wear a military uniform of any type, or carry even deactivated or replica weapons in a formation, unless that person is a member of the organised militia of the state. That was why all GAWG officers wore the GSDC device and held commissions in the Georgia State Guard 1941-1950. Otherwise, most of our programs would have been a violation of state law. It is also, BTW, why all GAWG vehicles carry a State of Georgia government tag, and is part of the reason why the newest wing patch doesn't say "CAP" on it anywhere.

Hmm, I'm not sure that I'm buying that explanation, especially the part about that still being the law unless you are alleging that all GA CAP members are breaking the law every meeting night....

BTW, it is pretty common for wing patches to not mention CAP.

The organised militia definition has been expanded over the years to include military auxiliaries, as well as ROTC and JROTC, and programs that receive state funding through Georgia DOD (CAP is included as a line item there), that have a recognised ID card that identifies the holder as a member of the said group. The Official Code of Georgia is not the ONLY law in Georgia. Decisions of various courts, budgets, and cabinet-level departmental policies all carry equal weight with the OCGA. And if the Governor and Adjutant General say that you are a State DOD resource/force multiplier, well, you get the idea. (Plus various 10th and 14th Amendment issues).