CAP Heraldry Standards?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Did I not imply it was immutable? No. When I stated one nation appeared to be saluting with the hand reversed - although I alluded to Great Britain, it turned to be France.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer that.

Plus, you are correct, Britain and all Commonwealth Dominions Army/AF personnel (except Canada), salute palm-out (as do the Royal Canadian Mounted Police), as depicted by the contrasting smart salutes given by Lt Gen Duane Theissen, USMC and Lt Gen Rhys Jones, New Zealand Army.



As to heraldry...maybe ours does go back further than the AF itself, but since we are the Auxiliary of the Air Force (NUTS to AUXON/OFF) it seems only logical that we follow the pattern of our parent service.

[Eclipse]

FWIW, some wings do require wing patches, so for them, there would be an added expense to replace the patches.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

ILWG has re-done our wing patch. I haven't worn one since they became optional, but I do believe there was a gracious sundown period for the old design.

The specific direction was that the patch remains optional, but anyone putting together a new uniform must wear the new version.  I choose not to wear it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

FWIW, some wings do require wing patches, so for them, there would be an added expense to replace the patches.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

ILWG has re-done our wing patch. I haven't worn one since they became optional, but I do believe there was a gracious sundown period for the old design.

The specific direction was that the patch remains optional, but anyone putting together a new uniform must wear the new version.  I choose not to wear it.

Right, but as a BDU in CAP can easily last 5+ years, those folks with the old patches are given a VERY gracious sundown on them.

[Private Investigator]

Simple solution, even thoughI don't believe this is a problem, mandate that all new patches meet heraldry standards and the traditional patches remain the same. If a squadron/group/wing/region decides to redesign their patch in the future, they meet the standards.

I concur.

Reviewing patches I have seen all kinds of shapes and if it has been around 20 to 70 years why not keep it. But anything new should meet standards.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Cyborg-

Yes, you are right 100% on two things. 1) Nuts to Aux on/off. 2) We should follow the USAF. 

However the point I was making is that someone was implying that since the USAF is new the USAF heraldry, therefore, is new. I find nothing of that. USAF heraldry continues from the TIOH, which continues from US Army Quartermaster, and up.

Someone else stated that "there was nothing Army heraldic with the Tropical Lightning DUI." My answer to that is this. In Heraldry, a very important thing is symbolism. You mean that volcanoes (DUI) and Taro plant (patch) are not found in Hawaii? And the Lightning flash is not connected with the name Tropical Lightning?

Not all Army or Air Force DUI will have traditional symbols but will have some sort of symbols where someone can make connections. Take the DUI for the Harbor Defenses of Sandy Hook, Army command inactivated in 1942. Includes a dark lighthouse between  two flaming shells. It makes allusion to the Revolutionary War when the light of the lighthouse at Sandy Hook, the entrance to the Port of New York, was turned off so the British fleet had to slow down. The flaming shells represent Sandy Hook as an Army proving ground before that function was transferred to Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

Do we find a lighthouse in traditional heraldry? I think not.

Take the DUI of the 60th Coast Defense (Antiaircraft Artillery) regiment, aka 60th Air Defense Artillery Battalion, and redesignated otherwise in a long history. Part of it includes a searchlight beam, meaning their promptness to defend the sky during both day and night.

Do we find searchlight beams in traditional heraldry? I think not.

Sometimes to continue lineage, the military has arbitrarily stated "those two units are connected because lineage has to be continued."

(Have to return to work, will edit and continue this later)

(Continue my old train)

The lineage of the 60th Coast Artillery (Antiaircraft Artillery) Regiment, inactivated in 1946 then reactivated as the 60th ADA Battalion, and renamed several times thereafter goes back to the First World War. This was achieved by an Army edict.

The 60th Coast Artillery Regiment of WWI was inactivated and dissolved after the war ended. Then in 1923 or 1924 the Army activated the 60th Coast Artillery Battalion. The officers claimed from the Quartermasters Dept the lineage of the earlier 60th CA regiment. The answer was "those are two different units, the 60th CA WW I and the 60th CA Battalion. No lineage connection is possible."

Two years later, the 60th Coast Artillery was expanded, I seem to remember was designated 60th Coast Artillery (Harbor Defense) Regimentand guess what? The orders stated "there is a connection between the 60th CA WWI and the 60th Coast Artillery (1923) for the lineage and history to continue."

Flyer

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That's the thing right there. A unit patch, wing group or squadron should depict something of what the unit is... Worded badly I know.

But, what would you think if you saw a patch for a squadron called the ravens with a patch depicting a phoenix? My first thought is, wow, do they not know what a raven is? Do they really think that is a raven?

Same thing with the Kentucky wing patch, Oh cool flying horses...

The 101st ABN DIV patch comes from something older than the unit itself...
The 1001st (Yes 1001st) in the Civil war had an eagle named old Abe who went into battle with them and he perched on a shield... Thus the screaming eagle depicted on a shield.

What do horses have to do with CAP? 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Manfred-

Sorry, I do not see the interpretation between a flying horse and the Kentucky patch. There are no wings sprouting directly from the horse, thus false interpretation. When you look at the history of Kentucky, then the meaning of the patch becomes clear:

The Kentucky Derby.



Duh!

Flyer

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Manfred-

Sorry, I do not see the interpretation between a flying horse and the Kentucky patch. There are no wings sprouting directly from the horse, thus false interpretation. When you look at the history of Kentucky, then the meaning of the patch becomes clear:

The Kentucky Derby.



Duh!

Flyer

ha, before you duh at me, read my previous post where I said that I understand the ky Derby is big... Duh

But what in the world does the Derby have to do with CAP? Please give me a decent answer.

[Al Sayre]

Somebody has to fly in all that mint...

[Garibaldi]

Manfred-

Sorry, I do not see the interpretation between a flying horse and the Kentucky patch. There are no wings sprouting directly from the horse, thus false interpretation. When you look at the history of Kentucky, then the meaning of the patch becomes clear:

The Kentucky Derby.



Duh!

Flyer

ha, before you duh at me, read my previous post where I said that I understand the ky Derby is big... Duh

But what in the world does the Derby have to do with CAP? Please give me a decent answer.

I don't think it has anything to do with CAP. I think it's just a symbol of what people associate Kentucky with. I'm sure you could look at a bunch of different Wing patches and see something either of historical, or popular, significance. IIRC, didn't NCWG's patch have the Wright Flyer on it at one time?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Manfred-

Sorry, I do not see the interpretation between a flying horse and the Kentucky patch. There are no wings sprouting directly from the horse, thus false interpretation. When you look at the history of Kentucky, then the meaning of the patch becomes clear:

The Kentucky Derby.



Duh!

Flyer

ha, before you duh at me, read my previous post where I said that I understand the ky Derby is big... Duh

But what in the world does the Derby have to do with CAP? Please give me a decent answer.

I don't think it has anything to do with CAP. I think it's just a symbol of what people associate Kentucky with. I'm sure you could look at a bunch of different Wing patches and see something either of historical, or popular, significance. IIRC, didn't NCWG's patch have the Wright Flyer on it at one time?

And the Wright flyer is connected to CAP, or the other way around could be said, one of our milestone achievements is the Wright brothers award. So, it is connected, also, aerospace education is one of our missions, so, there is another connection.And I agree there are other wing patches that have things on them that have nothing to do with CAP, or the Air Force. So, Why are they there? Maybe there should be a set standard for what is on the wing patch, something to do with CAP, or aerospace, or emergency services on every wing patch. Take the Indiana patch, very simple, a shield with a blue field, with pilot style wings, with the number 52 in them above and white stripes, with CAP in the middle . patriotic, simple, and sharp. Keep it, while putting it on the shield and scroll. Pawg, a keystone with the LL on it in the shield and scroll. Simple elegant designs on the shield and scroll.

[a2capt]

..and the California Wing patch. It's got a golden state. That's obvious. With with wings. .. "California .. Wing".

Or the flying banana.

Hawaii Wing? The Pineapple is riding the wave. Or flying in front of it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Manfred-

You are right, probably I was wrong on "Duhing!" ya.

To continue the list of Wing patches with no connection to CAP. Puerto Rico's patch has a palm tree, if I recall.

Maybe the connection is "what do I like after a CAP mission," the answer being "enjoying a Pina Colada (coconut, pineapple, and a secret ingredient)" or "relaxing on a beach."



I do agree with you in that future patches should be tied more to CAP's missions, history, or activities. However, for those Wings with historical patches, there should be some exemption.

Going back to PR Wing Patch, maybe I am wrong, but I seem to remember there was originally another Wing patch that was more closely connected to CAP. If I find it, I will disclose that.

Flyer

[Garibaldi]

When I was in GAWG, our patch was a white circle, bordered with blue, with a BIG red GA inside and the blue and red prop in the center. What did this have to do with ANYTHING? I never found out. Made no sense to me whatsoever, but then it was redesigned sometime in the 90s to a white building or something on a lighter blue background. Then, more recently, it was redesigned again to a shield configuration, despite a grass-roots campaign by a former Spaatz cadet to go back to the GA patch. I still don't know what any of it means. But it made sense to someone, at some point.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Clearly, it stood for Georgia...

The IL Wing patch was an eagle with the state of IL at its center. Now that eagle is inside the shield of the new patch.

[a2capt]

Or "Go Away!"

[Private Investigator]

http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/index.html#Gallery

Very interesting website they do have dates when WING patches were approved however a lot is just "TBD" or unknown. The HIWG patch dates prior to HI even becoming a state.

[Garibaldi]

Clearly, it stood for Georgia...

Yeah, I got that much, but what did it represent other than that? Nothing of historical value or CAP-ness.

The IL Wing patch was an eagle with the state of IL at its center. Now that eagle is inside the shield of the new patch.

I guess the point to be made was that many wing patches had or have nothing to do with CAP, but things that are in popular culture and whatnot, as well as symbols of the state. I still don't get WIWG's patch. Wisconsin with a big 42 in the center, but the charter number begins with 48. Maybe it's a GLR thing?

[Garibaldi]

Or "Go Away!"

General Aviation?

[ol'fido]

Clearly, it stood for Georgia...

Yeah, I got that much, but what did it represent other than that? Nothing of historical value or CAP-ness.

The IL Wing patch was an eagle with the state of IL at its center. Now that eagle is inside the shield of the new patch.

I guess the point to be made was that many wing patches had or have nothing to do with CAP, but things that are in popular culture and whatnot, as well as symbols of the state. I still don't get WIWG's patch. Wisconsin with a big 42 in the center, but the charter number begins with 48. Maybe it's a GLR thing?

Most of the wing patches that have numbers on them reflect the old region/wing numbering system that was used way back when. For instance, Illinois has a 61 on the patch even though its charter numbers began with 11 until we started this GLR-IL-XXX nonsense. The 61 stood for 6th Region, 1st Wing. And WI has a 62 not a 42 on their wing patch.

Many of these wing patches reflect something of the state. Take KY for instance. Yes, the Kentucky Derby is a big event, but the patch could also reflect Kentucky's fame for breeding thoroughbred horses which is worldwide. Ask Queen Elizabeth.

Yes, many of our wing patches don't reflect any direct relation to CAP, but they do reflect the message that the members of the wings that adopted them wanted to convey. That is "This is who we are!" I like the old patches. I sometimes think from some of the discussions I hear about these things that they are less about wanting to meet the AF heraldry standard than some Wing King wanting to make his mark. For years after they leave, they can walk around and point to some member wearing the new patch and say, "I did that.".