wearing Mess Dress on Cruise Ship formal night

[DrJbdm]

  Ok, I know this topic was discussed a few years back, about five years ago from what I can determine but then again maybe I have missed a few conversations since then. My question to you learned scholars is this; do any of you currently wear the CAP Mess Dress uniform when taking a cruise vacation on the ships formal nights?

   In the past years I have seen several Air Force Officers, Army and even a few Marines wearing Mess Dress uniforms on cruises, funny, navy guys are nowhere to be found on cruise ships! I have even seen a CAP Officer wearing Mess Dress once, he presented a sharp, military appearance which I am sure would have caused Radioman to either jump over board or throw him over board!..lol.

   Has anything changed in relation to any applicable CAP uniform regs that would make this a no go? It has been a few a years, but I'm planning on a cruise in May; I am well within both CAP and Air Force height and weight standards and present a well groomed image, so image wise, we're good. In the past I have advocated the wear of the Mess Dress uniform on cruise ship formal nights, as it had been done by military members for many years, as long as we present the same well groomed military appearance. I believe that it provides recognition of CAP and could be a public relations tool.  Now, if the Air Force ever abandons the practice of allowing it's airmen to wear Mess Dress on cruise ships, then we should as well. I believe we should follow the Air Forces lead on most things. 

[RiverAux]

You're joking, right? 

And if you're not, the question you should ask is : Is this cruise in any way a CAP activity?  Am I conducting a CAP mission of some type on this cruise?  If not, you shouldn't be in uniform. 

[SarDragon]

Jusy say no. There's too much wanna-be-ism there.

As for Navy folks on cruise ships, two comments: one, we know enough to remain incognito; two, it's kind of like a busman's holiday - why do we want to spend our free time doing what we do for a living?

Regarding AF airmen, how broadly are you using that term? Generally, it refers to just the enlisted folks, who don't even have a mess dress combination. All they have is a semi-formal variation  of Service Dress.

[DrJbdm]

  The term airman is used very broadly in this context. I am very much aware that it is typically senior enlisted or officers who own and wear Mess Dress uniforms.  Now, how is it there is too much wanna-be-ism there? Please explain how what is appropriate for Air Force, Army, or Marine officers to do, in this case, the wear of Mess Dress uniforms on cruise ship formal nights but yet should be labeled under the tab of wanna-be-ism for a CAP Officer to do? Does that make much sense? Seems like a double standard to me.

   Now, if there are some clear cut regulations that prohibited it, or if perhaps the wing commander says "I do not believe that to be a very sound idea" then I would probably not do it. But it seems that the waters are a bit muddied in regards to whether or not the practice is allowed.

   River Aux, what is the definition of a CAP mission? Could a member say he was conducting a public relations mission while on the cruise, in particular the formal night? For the record, I'm not joking, it's an honest question, I have seen it done before, I personally think it has many benefits with no negatives provided that the member meets the weight and grooming requirements.

[lordmonar]

He is refering to the 2 Hour Befor and After rule.

Having said that....if formal dress is required....wear it.  Just don't be a tool.

YMMV.

[Nolan Teel]

You could do a presentation on CAP to all those who will listen?  That would require a uniform right? Make sure your squadron commander knows?  I mean you would be in international waters:)

[PHall]

Okay, I'll be a bit more blunt...

Is the Cruise Ship formal night a military or CAP social event? If it's not then do not wear your CAP Mess Dress.

You would also need your Commander's permission to wear a CAP uniform at a non-CAP event. Do you even want to ask?

Just do what everybody else does, either bring or rent a Tux. It's not that expensive and it will NOT raise eyebrows.

And have fun on your cruise!

[RiverAux]

   River Aux, what is the definition of a CAP mission? Could a member say he was conducting a public relations mission while on the cruise, in particular the formal night? For the record, I'm not joking, it's an honest question, I have seen it done before, I personally think it has many benefits with no negatives provided that the member meets the weight and grooming requirements.

Refer to CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1 which describes when CAP uniforms can be worn.   The applicable standard would be whether this is being done as part of your normal CAP duties.  Just wearing a uniform isn't a public affairs mission or I could wear one 24/7.  Arrange to give a speech about CAP at the formal night and the mess dress would be appropriate.  If in doubt, get specific authorization from your commander. 

Seen it done before doesn't meant it was done in accordance with CAP regs. 

Another issue would be whether or not you are leaving the US.  There are specific restrictions on wear of CAP uniform in foreign countries.  Not sure what rules would apply to international waters. 

[Ed Bos]

Table 1-1 doesn't apply here, it specifically applies to CAP business.

Table 2-1, Line 1, page 46:

Mess Dress:

For senior member officers and NCOs only. Worn for social functions of a general or official nature (black-tie affairs); a tuxedo is civilian equivalent. Semi-fitted; sleeves will end approximately 1/4 inch from heel of the thumb; single-breasted, straight back with
three CAP crest, USAF coat of arms, or USAF "Wing and Star" buttons diagonally on both sides and a two-button length chain as a
front closure; satin shawl collar and lapels; center back length will be 3 1/2 inches to 4 inches below natural waistline. Senior member officers wear 1/2-inch wide dark blue, sleeve braid 3 inches from end of the sleeve. General officers wear 1 1/2 inch wide
sleeve braid 3 inches from end of sleeve. Jacket and trousers will match in shade and material.

(Emphasis Mine)

Since this is a social function of a general nature when a tuxedo is the civilian equivalent, it looks like you're good to go, just be sure to get your Commander's authorization to be wearing a uniform to a non-CAP event.

[Ed Bos]

Also, I think it's important to identify what country the vessel is flagged from, since you'll be in international waters.

Seriously, if it's a US Ship, I say that's probably a safer bet that CAP Mess Dress is appropriate than if the ship is another country's.

[Pylon]

I have done it on a cruise, wasn't trying to be a "wannabe", the world didn't end, got no dirty looks, still somehow a member.  I think there are likely more important issues for us to focus on than a member properly wearing a sharp CAP uniform in public appropriate to the occassion. 


From a public relations perspective, I also happen to think it's silly we discourage members from doing so.  I can wear my Marine dress blues just about anytime I well please, so why do we think it's a good idea to discourage CAP members from doing the same.

[Phillip]

From a public relations perspective, I also happen to think it's silly we discourage members from doing so.

:clap:

The uniform is one of the greatest PR tools we have.

[RiverAux]

Table 1-1 doesn't apply here, it specifically applies to CAP business.

Table 2-1, Line 1, page 46:

Mess Dress:

For senior member officers and NCOs only. Worn for social functions of a general or official nature (black-tie affairs); a tuxedo is civilian equivalent. Semi-fitted; sleeves will end approximately 1/4 inch from heel of the thumb; single-breasted, straight back with
three CAP crest, USAF coat of arms, or USAF "Wing and Star" buttons diagonally on both sides and a two-button length chain as a
front closure; satin shawl collar and lapels; center back length will be 3 1/2 inches to 4 inches below natural waistline. Senior member officers wear 1/2-inch wide dark blue, sleeve braid 3 inches from end of the sleeve. General officers wear 1 1/2 inch wide
sleeve braid 3 inches from end of sleeve. Jacket and trousers will match in shade and material.

(Emphasis Mine)

Since this is a social function of a general nature when a tuxedo is the civilian equivalent, it looks like you're good to go, just be sure to get your Commander's authorization to be wearing a uniform to a non-CAP event.

Table 1-1 is the table that says when it is appropriate to wear the CAP uniform at all.  The later tables just say which uniform is appropriate for which occasion.   Otherwise, by your interpretation it would be ok to wear a CAP mess dress uniform to a rally that might bring discredit upon CAP since 2-1 doesn't prohibit it even though it is specifically prohibited in 1-1. 

From a public relations perspective, I also happen to think it's silly we discourage members from doing so.  I can wear my Marine dress blues just about anytime I well please, so why do we think it's a good idea to discourage CAP members from doing the same.

It isn't so much that we're against it, its that the regulations are against it.  That being said, there has to be some reasonable linkage between a legitimate CAP purpose or mission (defined broadly) and uniform wear. 

[Ed Bos]

Table 1-1 is the table that says when it is appropriate to wear the CAP uniform at all.  The later tables just say which uniform is appropriate for which occasion.   Otherwise, by your interpretation it would be ok to wear a CAP mess dress uniform to a rally that might bring discredit upon CAP since 2-1 doesn't prohibit it even though it is specifically prohibited in 1-1. 

Non-concur, but that's for his commander to say, I suppose.

[NCRblues]

I will give you the real answer...

Half on here will say yes, and the other half on here will say no...

So. simple way to solve this problem, ask your commander.

[RiverAux]

Table 1-1 is the table that says when it is appropriate to wear the CAP uniform at all.  The later tables just say which uniform is appropriate for which occasion.   Otherwise, by your interpretation it would be ok to wear a CAP mess dress uniform to a rally that might bring discredit upon CAP since 2-1 doesn't prohibit it even though it is specifically prohibited in 1-1. 

Non-concur, but that's for his commander to say, I suppose.

Then have fun wearing the mess dress at your place of employment (prohibited by 1-1, not prohibited in 2-1). 

Half on here will say yes, and the other half on here will say no...

So. simple way to solve this problem, ask your commander.

Since some willfully choose to ignore clear guidance in the regulations, he is correct.

[Eclipse]

Riveraux - What's the difference between a "general" social function and an "official" one?

[DrJbdm]

From a public relations perspective, I also happen to think it's silly we discourage members from doing so.  I can wear my Marine dress blues just about anytime I well please, so why do we think it's a good idea to discourage CAP members from doing the same.

It isn't so much that we're against it, its that the regulations are against it. That being said, there has to be some reasonable linkage between a legitimate CAP purpose or mission (defined broadly) and uniform wear. 

  No, I would disagree; I would say that there are a few that are against it. With comments like "there is too much wanna-be-ism there" How can we say that it has everything to do with interpretation of regulations vs our own personal bias of not liking something?
 
  Personally, I am not sure it falls outside of the regulations, but guidance from command authority is always wise.

[RiverAux]

Riveraux - What's the difference between a "general" social function and an "official" one?

Well, this isn't much different than the vague sort of guidance about which CAP uniform is appropriate at various CAP activities, so I can't really help you there.  However, I think what they're trying to get at is that it is worn to functions where civilians would be wearing a tuxedo as opposed to some less formal wear.  Could use some clarification.

But, 1-1 is still the overriding document that says when any CAP uniform, including this one is to be worn. 

[SarDragon]

A single CAP member, wearing mess dress in an uncertain environment, such as a cruise ship, mostly says, IMHO, "look at me".

YMMV.

[titanII]

A single CAP member, wearing mess dress in an uncertain environment, such as a cruise ship, mostly says, IMHO, "look at me".

[Devil's Advocate] And what about the small handful of people in the military wearing their mess dress in an environment where that is certainly not the norm? What does that say? It's not that different, is it?
[/Devil's Advocate]

[SarDragon]

Not a lot, but they do have more of an entitlement to do so. I'm not all that much in favor of AD folks doing it, either, particularly in a cruise ship environment. It just doesn't seem "right".

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Is it appropriate to wear an American military uniform aboard a ship under another nation's flag? That flag makes the ship sovereign territory of that nation, does it not? And since many, if not most, cruise ships aren't registered as American vessels, wouldn't that render the wear of a uniform inappropriate on multiple levels?

[FlyTiger77]

I'm not all that much in favor of AD folks doing it, either, particularly in a cruise ship environment. It just doesn't seem "right".

What he said.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[titanII]

I'm not all that much in favor of AD folks doing it, either, particularly in a cruise ship environment. It just doesn't seem "right".

What he said.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

+1

[MIKE]

Does Mustang Survival make formal wear... that might be the smarter option. 

[Thrashed]

Who would even own CAP mess dress?

[Pylon]

Who would even own CAP mess dress?

Just trolling, are we?  Make it to any Wing or Region Conference and you'll see plenty of members in it.

[SarDragon]

Who would even own CAP mess dress?

If I was willing to shave, I'd have one in a heart beat. (Cuz I make it look good!)

[spacecommand]

If I could budget for one I would too.  Shoulder boards, mini medals, and the entire mess dress itself is not one cheap uniform.

[PHall]

If I could budget for one I would too.  Shoulder boards, mini medals, and the entire mess dress itself is not one cheap uniform.

So don't buy it all at once. Try to find a used Mess Dress and then buy the other stuff one piece at a time.
It lessens the "sticker shock".

[DrJbdm]

Is it appropriate to wear an American military uniform aboard a ship under another nation's flag? That flag makes the ship sovereign territory of that nation, does it not? And since many, if not most, cruise ships aren't registered as American vessels, wouldn't that render the wear of a uniform inappropriate on multiple levels?

   No, the ships themselves are not owned by the country that they are registered under. Just as registering your vehicle in a different county then the one you live in would make it make it that counties vehicle. In this case, the ships are owned and operated by Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines or Disney Cruise Lines or Carnival Cruise Lines, ect., in other words they are all owned by corporations.

   These are American companies, based out of the U.S. but they choose to build and register their vessels with different countries because of the tax and inspection issues. It all comes down to money; it makes more fiscal sense to register the ships with Finland or Panama or some other country then with the US. 

[ColonelJack]

Who would even own CAP mess dress?

If I was willing to shave, I'd have one in a heart beat. (Cuz I make it look good!)

Add a kilt to it, and make it look GREAT!   

Jack

[flyboy53]

Table 1-1 doesn't apply here, it specifically applies to CAP business.

Table 2-1, Line 1, page 46:

Mess Dress:

For senior member officers and NCOs only. Worn for social functions of a general or official nature (black-tie affairs); a tuxedo is civilian equivalent. Semi-fitted; sleeves will end approximately 1/4 inch from heel of the thumb; single-breasted, straight back with
three CAP crest, USAF coat of arms, or USAF "Wing and Star" buttons diagonally on both sides and a two-button length chain as a
front closure; satin shawl collar and lapels; center back length will be 3 1/2 inches to 4 inches below natural waistline. Senior member officers wear 1/2-inch wide dark blue, sleeve braid 3 inches from end of the sleeve. General officers wear 1 1/2 inch wide
sleeve braid 3 inches from end of sleeve. Jacket and trousers will match in shade and material.

(Emphasis Mine)

Since this is a social function of a general nature when a tuxedo is the civilian equivalent, it looks like you're good to go, just be sure to get your Commander's authorization to be wearing a uniform to a non-CAP event.

Table 1-1 is the table that says when it is appropriate to wear the CAP uniform at all.  The later tables just say which uniform is appropriate for which occasion.   Otherwise, by your interpretation it would be ok to wear a CAP mess dress uniform to a rally that might bring discredit upon CAP since 2-1 doesn't prohibit it even though it is specifically prohibited in 1-1. 

From a public relations perspective, I also happen to think it's silly we discourage members from doing so.  I can wear my Marine dress blues just about anytime I well please, so why do we think it's a good idea to discourage CAP members from doing the same.

It isn't so much that we're against it, its that the regulations are against it.  That being said, there has to be some reasonable linkage between a legitimate CAP purpose or mission (defined broadly) and uniform wear.

Simple answer, bounce you request off your commander. If he OKs it, then fine. Just remember that if you do wear a mess dress uniform in such a situation, you are a representative of CAP and to a broader (sic) extent, the U.S. Air Force, so please conduct yourself accordingly and set a positive example that creates a good public image.

A mess dress uniform is more of a formal wear for those occassions calling for it. You're not supposed to wear a uniform in a bar or in those situations that bring discredit to the uniform, but I can guarantee you that you will find plently of people stacked up at the bar at a military ball or a wing conference dinner -- which is technically a violation of the regs.

In my Air Force and CAP experience, I have seen the mess dress worn on lake cruises (NY Wing Annual Conference), at military balls sponsored by the Anchorage Chamber of Commerce, and at a military-themed dance in an airport commercial hangar sponsored by the Red Cross.

[Thrashed]

Who would even own CAP mess dress?

Just trolling, are we?  Make it to any Wing or Region Conference and you'll see plenty of members in it.

Yes, everytime someone has a different opinion than yours, they are trolling. 

I've been to plenty of Wing and Region conferences and have never seen anyone in mess dress. Of course, I don't stay for that part. I don't wear a suit to church, I don't wear a service jacket with my blues, I will never own or wear mess dress. It's silly. I get paid a lot of money to wear a tie at work. I'm not doing it away from work. 

[Pylon]

Yes, everytime someone has a different opinion than yours, they are trolling. 

I've been to plenty of Wing and Region conferences and have never seen anyone in mess dress. Of course, I don't stay for that part. I don't wear a suit to church, I don't wear a service jacket with my blues, I will never own or wear mess dress. It's silly. I get paid a lot of money to wear a tie at work. I'm not doing it away from work. 

Exactly. The tone of "gosh! who would ever be so stupid as to own mess dress?!" comes through in your question brilliantly.   I'm fine with your differing opinions, and I could really care less whether you choose to own mess dress or not.  But to couch your choice to not buy it and your commentary on it as an "innocent question" of "who even owns mess dress?" is what trolling is.  Thanks for proving my point.

And as to the OP, I think we've muddied the waters enough for him by this point. Heh.

[lordmonar]

You're not supposed to wear a uniform in a bar or in those situations that bring discredit to the uniform, but I can guarantee you that you will find plently of people stacked up at the bar at a military ball or a wing conference dinner -- which is technically a violation of the regs.

Sorry...but got to call BS on this one.

You can't wear BDU's and Flight suits in a bar (an establishment that primarily sells alcohal) but service and service dress are perfectly okay in Bars, Casinos, strip clubs, ect.

[Hawk200]

Regarding AF airmen, how broadly are you using that term? Generally, it refers to just the enlisted folks, who don't even have a mess dress combination. All they have is a semi-formal variation  of Service Dress.

Say what? I owned a Mess Dress when I was a SrA. 39-1 indicates how NCOs wear their stripes on Mess Dress. Had two coats, one Air Force, one CAP.

[SAR-EMT1]

Regarding AF airmen, how broadly are you using that term? Generally, it refers to just the enlisted folks, who don't even have a mess dress combination. All they have is a semi-formal variation  of Service Dress.

Say what? I owned a Mess Dress when I was a SrA. 39-1 indicates how NCOs wear their stripes on Mess Dress. Had two coats, one Air Force, one CAP.

I know that USAF  NCO's can wear mess dress. But I didn't think E-1 --> E-4 could.

[flyboy53]

You're not supposed to wear a uniform in a bar or in those situations that bring discredit to the uniform, but I can guarantee you that you will find plently of people stacked up at the bar at a military ball or a wing conference dinner -- which is technically a violation of the regs.

Sorry...but got to call BS on this one.

You can't wear BDU's and Flight suits in a bar (an establishment that primarily sells alcohal) but service and service dress are perfectly okay in Bars, Casinos, strip clubs, ect.

The comment was offered with a degree of cynicism and you bit!

[AngelWings]

Common sense thought: Unless you save a lot of money by wearing your mess dress, don't wear it. If you want to look cool, buy yourself a party shirt (you know, one of the mess dress shirts that have wild looking fabric on the back and sleeves that are hidden when you wear a jacket).

[flyboy53]

Common sense thought: Unless you save a lot of money by wearing your mess dress, don't wear it. If you want to look cool, buy yourself a party shirt (you know, one of the mess dress shirts that have wild looking fabric on the back and sleeves that are hidden when you wear a jacket).

Or buy one of the NYW biker patches for wear on the back of the shirt......

[lordmonar]

You're not supposed to wear a uniform in a bar or in those situations that bring discredit to the uniform, but I can guarantee you that you will find plently of people stacked up at the bar at a military ball or a wing conference dinner -- which is technically a violation of the regs.

Sorry...but got to call BS on this one.

You can't wear BDU's and Flight suits in a bar (an establishment that primarily sells alcohal) but service and service dress are perfectly okay in Bars, Casinos, strip clubs, ect.

The comment was offered with a degree of cynicism and you bit!

Well I dd not see the cynicism tags.   
Being as I live here in Las Vegas the very topic has come up many times.
We hold our wing conferences in casinos.
We had a National Conference here a few years ago.
And every year I have a conversation with someone who thinks it is inappropriate for someone in uniform (blues or blues equivilant) sitting at a bar or in front of a slot machine.
But neither CAP nor the USAF bans wearing the uniform in these places.

[Hawk200]

Regarding AF airmen, how broadly are you using that term? Generally, it refers to just the enlisted folks, who don't even have a mess dress combination. All they have is a semi-formal variation  of Service Dress.

Say what? I owned a Mess Dress when I was a SrA. 39-1 indicates how NCOs wear their stripes on Mess Dress. Had two coats, one Air Force, one CAP.

I know that USAF  NCO's can wear mess dress. But I didn't think E-1 --> E-4 could.

They've been able to for 23 years that I know of (went active AF initially), so at least that long. I owned one as a Senior Airman, and I've seen Airman Basics in them. Personally, I wouldn't have been worrying about a Mess Dress as an AB, although piecemeal it would be doable over just a couple months. Although spendy, they are authorized.

One thing to mention is that Mess Dress is neither required nor forbidden for enlisted, but mandatory for officers. Officers have a "Formal Dress" variant, uses most of the same pieces, but a white bow and vest instead of blue bow and cummerbund, and a few other minor differences. Out of formal attire, that is the only version authorized for just officers.

[abdsp51]

IMO, considering where some cruises go I wouldn't take anything military related at all.  Outside of my CAC which would be tucked away somewhere.  I'd say just rent a tux for that night and not draw attention to yourself.

[Eclipse]

We hold our wing conferences in casinos.

What level?  "Mirage" or "Tam O'Shanter"?

[lordmonar]

We hold our wing conferences in casinos.

What level?  "Mirage" or "Tam O'Shanter"?

Palace Station here in Las Vegas....something similar up in Reno.
Sort of middle of the road...what we call a "locals" casino....but still on the upperside of things.

[Eclipse]

We hold our wing conferences in casinos.

What level?  "Mirage" or "Tam O'Shanter"?

Palace Station here in Las Vegas....something similar up in Reno.
Sort of middle of the road...what we call a "locals" casino....but still on the upperside of things.

Heh - it's didn't used to be too visible from the strip, but now, with that big open spot South of Circus Circus, it's
the biggest thing NW.  (My favorite place to eat when I'm working is Peppermill).

You can try, but nothing beats the Holiday Inn Select, Decatur

[lordmonar]

Santa Fe is nice and so it the Sun Coast....both very inexpensive but nice rooms.