Jackets worn with the CAP distinctive uniform

[Grumpy]

Our group is headed to Vandenberg AFB for the wing cadet competition and one of our sponsors is asking what jackets can be worn with the gray slacks/golf shirt combination.  I'm having trouble finding the answer in 39-1.  Here's what she wants to wear; is it appropriate?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_415&products_id=15095

or

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_415&products_id=13948

Thanks

[ßτε]

CAPM 39-1 Table 4-3, line 9

Those would be allowed with the White Aviator shirt uniform.

[RADIOMAN015]

Our group is headed to Vandenberg AFB for the wing cadet competition and one of our sponsors is asking what jackets can be worn with the gray slacks/golf shirt combination.  I'm having trouble finding the answer in 39-1.  Here's what she wants to wear; is it appropriate?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_415&products_id=15095

or

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_415&products_id=13948

Thanks

There is no regulation guidance about what jacket or head gear is mandatory to wear with the white grey uniform.    I would think what you have listed above would be OK, some also wear the black, blue, or green flight jacket.   Remember that CAP wanted to have a uniform that would be least costly to senior members and this is their choice.

Personally, I'm considering buying the black flight jacket BUT would like to put the command patch on it, don't really care about the rank.

Hey, it's been so cold and snowy here in the northeast that when I wear my long sleeve blue golf shirt with grey pants and combat booths, I'm wearing my AF retired knit watch cap (black with bright yellow lettering) (IF a CAP one was available I'd likely buy one) along with a black outer winter multiple pocket coat, which comes to within 2 inches of my knee caps.

I would think that any outer wear should be conservative and not have any advertising or other slogans on it, but again not really addressed.  You can wear the CAP distinctive ball cap with it or a plain blue ball cap.
RM

   

[Grumpy]

Thank you, that's good for the aviator shirt.  How about the blue golf shirt/gray slacks or skirt?

I'm afraid to look closer because like the proverbial snake, it'll bite me. 

[PHall]

There's no outer wear specified for the golfshirt/grey pants/skiry combo.
Something dark and "professional" looking should do. i.e. don't wear your autographed Hooters windbreaker.

[Eclipse]

There is no regulation guidance about what jacket or head gear is mandatory to wear with the white grey uniform.

Mandatory?  No.  Any civilian outerwear is acceptable.

Prohibited?  Yes.  No military uniform parts may be worn over or with the corporate combinations.

[ßτε]

Thank you, that's good for the aviator shirt.  How about the blue golf shirt/gray slacks or skirt?

I'm afraid to look closer because like the proverbial snake, it'll bite me. 

CAPM 39-1 Table 4-4, line 7

[vento]

Most members in my squadron wear the black leather A2 with the golf shirt grey pant combo.

[billford1]

The CAP blue embroidered jacket may be worn with this combination.
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_440_458&products_id=14640

[Fubar]

Most members in my squadron wear the black leather A2 with the golf shirt grey pant combo.

I see a lot of folks around here wear the same thing, with the CAP command patch and the name tag off their flight suit. It looks very professional, however isn't this mixing military items with a non-military uniform?

I don't own one, but I'd like to. I just don't want to shell out the cash if it's a no-no.

[SarDragon]

Most members in my squadron wear the black leather A2 with the golf shirt grey pant combo.

I see a lot of folks around here wear the same thing, with the CAP command patch and the name tag off their flight suit. It looks very professional, however isn't this mixing military items with a non-military uniform?

I don't own one, but I'd like to. I just don't want to shell out the cash if it's a no-no.

No, because the black jacket is not a military item. It is specifically designated for wear with corporate uniforms. It might be a bit too warm for Grumpy's environment. I seldom wear either of my civilian leather jackets for that reason.

Grump, I suggest the one in billford1's link. Joe, Dee, and Mike all have them. Ask them to see how they like theirs.

[Fubar]

No, because the black jacket is not a military item.

What about the command patch and name tag off the flight suit (which includes rank) being on the jacket?

[SarDragon]

Nametags can be worn anywhere. I also have the same attitude about many, but not all, patches. I don't recall any regs forbidding extracurricular wear of patches on non-uniform items.

[Fubar]

Nametags can be worn anywhere. I also have the same attitude about many, but not all, patches. I don't recall any regs forbidding extracurricular wear of patches on non-uniform items.

Thanks! I had a squadron "expert" advise me otherwise, but he hasn't had the greatest track record when it comes to uniform wear.

[bosshawk]

Ah, yes, the three most dangerous words in the CAP language: 
'somebody told me".

I wear the black A-2, with name tag and command patch with the golf shirt and gray slacks all the time.  As for headgear, I usually wear a logo CAP baseball cap or one with my Sq number on it.

As of 2400 tonight, I put all of that stuff in a storage box.

[davedove]

No, because the black jacket is not a military item.

What about the command patch and name tag off the flight suit (which includes rank) being on the jacket?

The black jacket WITH patch and nametag were specifically authorized for wear with corporate uniforms:

a. Black Leather Jacket. Effective 15 March 2006, a black leather jacket with
side entry and patch pockets similar in style to the A-2 jacket was approved for wear by
CAP senior members with the aviator shirt combinations, utility uniform, CAP flight suit
or CAP polo shirt with gray slacks. The CAP Command Patch will be worn on the right
breast with the black leather name patch on the left breast pocket. This jacket may not
be worn with any of the AF-style uniforms. Effective 29 June 2006, the leather name
patch worn on this jacket is changed to a black leather name tag with a brown inset.

[BradM]

Is there a leather jacket that can be worn with the AF uniform (minus the service coat)?

The Air Force blue windbreaker with grade epaulettes, you can't wear this with the aviator/gray slacks combo, correct?

Can one wear a black version of this with the grade epaulettes? such as the Navy black windbreaker. If no, then one can wear the Navy windbreaker with no grade epaulettes correct?

[SarDragon]

While I have no specific references, mixing uniform items with civilian clothing is generally prohibited, unless specifically authorized in the reg. Additionally, combining items from different services is also usually a no-no.

A review of the USN uni reg shows that the windbreaker is for E-1 through E-6, has no epaulets, and is authorized for wear with civilian clothing (without insignia).

So, if you wear that jacket with the CAP corporate uniforms, and someone calls you on it, there will be an impasse - regs don't specifically prohibit it, nor do they specifically allow it.

YMMV. Tempus fugit. Notary sojac.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

1. No leather jackets authorised for the AF uniform for CAP members.

2. AF blue windbreaker not authorised for grey/whites.

3. I don't think this black jacket with grade is authorised for grey/whites.  However, it is authorised for the soon-to-be-toast  CSU (blue/white) with standard grey epaulettes.

4. If you wear the Navy black windbreaker sans insignia, it is indistinguishable from a civilian outergarment WRT 39-1, so, yes, you could wear it in that mode.

Unless cooler heads prevail, the CSU is gone as of 1 January 2012.  Due to that, I would not be surprised to see motions to make the black windbreaker/pullover sweater part of the G/W uniform.

I'd be satisfied with something like this:



It's British RAF issue, with just a shade of blue in it, but not so much so that it would conflict with the grey epaulettes.

[ol'fido]

Can we get a better picture of that or a link to a pic?^^^^

[Eclipse]

3. I don't think this black jacket with grade is authorised for grey/whites.  However, it is authorised for the soon-to-be-toast  CSU (blue/white) with standard grey epaulettes epaulet sleeves.

It is not for the whites, yes on the CSU.

4. If you wear the Navy black windbreaker sans insignia, it is indistinguishable from a civilian outergarment WRT 39-1, so, yes, you could wear it in that mode.

Non-concur - it is no different than the blue one - a military garment and therefore prohibited for wear with the whites, distinguishable or not.

Unless cooler heads prevail, the CSU is gone as of 1 January 2012.  Due to that, I would not be surprised to see motions to make the black windbreaker/pullover sweater part of the G/W uniform.

I doubt it will happen, but would be nice - it is a sharp jacket with or without grade on it.

[RVT]

AF blue windbreaker not authorised for grey/whites.

And neither is the pullover sweater, but for some unknown bizarre reason the cardigan sweater is.  Its the only example of a USAF uniform component being mixed with CAP corporate clothing (after the end of the year anyway) ind its right there in the regulations though WHY I cannot guess.

I don't think this black jacket with grade is authorised for grey/whites.  However, it is authorised for the soon-to-be-toast  CSU (blue/white) with standard grey epaulettes.

The blue flight jacket with all insignia IS authorised and is essentially interchangable with the black leather jacket.

If you wear the Navy black windbreaker sans insignia, it is indistinguishable from a civilian outergarment WRT 39-1, so, yes, you could wear it in that mode. Unless cooler heads prevail, the CSU is gone as of 1 January 2012.  Due to that, I would not be surprised to see motions to make the black windbreaker/pullover sweater part of the G/W uniform.

All they have to do is allow the slide on rank to be used.  With no insignia these are already ok.

[Thom]

AF blue windbreaker not authorised for grey/whites.

And neither is the pullover sweater, but for some unknown bizarre reason the cardigan sweater is. Its the only example of a USAF uniform component being mixed with CAP corporate clothing (after the end of the year anyway) and its right there in the regulations though WHY I cannot guess.

Actually, there is at least one other: the AF Blue Flight Cap (with CAP device) is allowed with the Blue Corporate Flight Suit. Not sure why, but it's in the manual.



Thom

[cap235629]

AF blue windbreaker not authorised for grey/whites.

And neither is the pullover sweater, but for some unknown bizarre reason the cardigan sweater is. Its the only example of a USAF uniform component being mixed with CAP corporate clothing (after the end of the year anyway) and its right there in the regulations though WHY I cannot guess.

Actually, there is at least one other: the AF Blue Flight Cap (with CAP device) is allowed with the Blue Corporate Flight Suit. Not sure why, but it's in the manual.



Thom

where?

[Eclipse]

^ Heh...

[Spaceman3750]

AF blue windbreaker not authorised for grey/whites.

And neither is the pullover sweater, but for some unknown bizarre reason the cardigan sweater is.  Its the only example of a USAF uniform component being mixed with CAP corporate clothing (after the end of the year anyway) ind its right there in the regulations though WHY I cannot guess.

Just because those of us that wear the gray & whites are potentially big and furry doesn't mean that we don't need a jacket to wear... Why is it odd that they specified a uniform jacket that you can wear grade on for a corporate uniform?

[SarDragon]

If you wear the Navy black windbreaker sans insignia, it is indistinguishable from a civilian outergarment WRT 39-1, so, yes, you could wear it in that mode. Unless cooler heads prevail, the CSU is gone as of 1 January 2012.  Due to that, I would not be surprised to see motions to make the black windbreaker/pullover sweater part of the G/W uniform.

All they have to do is allow the slide on rank to be used.  With no insignia these are already ok.

There are two black Navy jackets. The "windbreaker" has a pointed collar and button cuffs, and does NOT have epaulets. This jacket is for wear by E-6 and below.

The "relax fit" jacket has a stand-up knit collar and knit cuffs and bottom, and epaulets, and is primarily for officers and CPOs. It may be optionally worn by E-6 and below with the new Service Uniform.

So, which one are we talking about here/ The mix in terminology is confusing the discussion.

[SarDragon]

Actually, there is at least one other: the AF Blue Flight Cap (with CAP device) is allowed with the Blue Corporate Flight Suit. Not sure why, but it's in the manual.

Thom

where?

Table 4-5 of CAPM 39-1, Line 6.

[cap235629]

Actually, there is at least one other: the AF Blue Flight Cap (with CAP device) is allowed with the Blue Corporate Flight Suit. Not sure why, but it's in the manual.

Thom

where?

Table 4-5 of CAPM 39-1, Line 6.

But in the circular world of CAPM 39-1, if the flight suit is not made of NOMEX, it is considered a utility uniform and the only headgear authorized is a ball cap.

Like anyone would know what material your clothes are made of at first glance.  My Tru-spec polycotton Utility Uniform looks just like the Navy Blue NOMEX flightsuit Vanguard sells.  You can't tell the difference until you feel it or read the the tag.

[Eclipse]

Like anyone would know what material your clothes are made of at first glance.  My Tru-spec polycotton Utility Uniform looks just like the Navy Blue NOMEX flightsuit Vanguard sells.  You can't tell the difference until you feel it or read the the tag.

or...

[davidsinn]

Like anyone would know what material your clothes are made of at first glance.  My Tru-spec polycotton Utility Uniform looks just like the Navy Blue NOMEX flightsuit Vanguard sells.  You can't tell the difference until you feel it or read the the tag.

or...

That's not a good reason to have two separate standards for an otherwise identical uniform. It would be like having different patches and headgear for winter weight BDUs vs summer weight.

[SarDragon]

Flight suits are for flying. Utility suits are utility-ing.

Different uses, different materials, different names.

What's so hard about that?

[davidsinn]

Flight suits are for flying. Utility suits are utility-ing.

Different uses, different materials, different names.

What's so hard about that?

OK, then why do they have different hats? They look the same at anything past arms length. A "flight suit" looks weird without a flight cap.

[cap235629]

Flight suits are for flying. Utility suits are utility-ing.

Different uses, different materials, different names.

What's so hard about that?

I have never seen a navy blue nomex flight suit.  Every blue flight suit I have seen is actually a utility uniform.  Cost is the primary reason.  Most of the flying I see is being done in the CAP polo anyway.....

[SarDragon]

Flight suits are for flying. Utility suits are utility-ing.

Different uses, different materials, different names.

What's so hard about that?

OK, then why do they have different hats? They look the same at anything past arms length. A "flight suit" looks weird without a flight cap.

According to the reference above, now quoted:

Flight cap or CAP baseball cap for both male and female.

Per Table 4-6, Line 6:

Headgear is not required, but the CAP baseball cap may be worn.

What's the problem?

Flight suits are for flying. Utility suits are utility-ing.

Different uses, different materials, different names.

What's so hard about that?

I have never seen a navy blue nomex flight suit.  Every blue flight suit I have seen is actually a utility uniform.  Cost is the primary reason.  Most of the flying I see is being done in the CAP polo anyway.....

I suppose that depends on the definition of Navy Blue. The flight suit I have, alleged to be that color, is a lighter shade than all the Navy Blue stuff I wore WIWOWD. These blue Nomex flight suits are available from Gibson & Barnes (flightsuits.com), and on eBay, where I got mine.

This one is royal blue, the one we can no longer wear.. Mine is a darker shade.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Most of the flying I see is being done in the CAP polo anyway.....

YMM really, really V to the nth degree.

There are people who wear the blue utility jumpsuit for flying clothing, again because of cost.

There are also people who wear B/BDU's for flying clothing.

There are also people who wear G/W for flying clothing.

There are also people who dislike uniforms so much that they just wear civvies to fly in with a CAP hat to be "compliant" with regs.

My blue jumpsuit from Tru-Spec, unless one would use a microscope, looks no different fabric-wise to my sage green Nomex bag.

I do not understand why the flight cap is not allowed with the blue jumpsuit.  The Air Force had to be at least minimally involved with that decision, since it's their flight cap.

Eclipse: Respectful non-concurrence.  Unless someone looks at the government-issue tag, the black Navy light jacket could easily be confused with an MA-1 or (more likely) L2B.

Here's a hopefully-better pic of the RAF jacket I originally posted (which was a photo from Evilbay):



http://www.allarms.co.uk/product.php?c=8&s=18&p=47

I do have to question, though, how efficacious it would be for those of us living Stateside to get a uniform item from the UK.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse: Respectful non-concurrence.  Unless someone looks at the government-issue tag, the black Navy light jacket could easily be confused with an MA-1 or (more likely) L2B.

Here's a hopefully-better pic of the RAF jacket I originally posted (which was a photo from Evilbay):



http://www.allarms.co.uk/product.php?c=8&s=18&p=47

Both the MA-1 and L2B are shiny / smooth jackets, while the windbreakers are cloth / flat.  You'd have to be really far away to not be able to tell.
For me it is not about tags but about the spirit of the reg, and certainly that is what the USAF people (who know to know) see as well.  With as many (arguably better) civilian choices as their are available, why push things just to make a point?  Sure you might have a coffee-house argument about the label and manufacture, but the cut is designed to have a military look, which for those not in a uniformed service or organization might be "ok", but isn't cricket for us.

[RVT]

Just because those of us that wear the gray & whites are potentially big and furry doesn't mean that we don't need a jacket to wear... Why is it odd that they specified a uniform jacket that you can wear grade on for a corporate uniform?

I actually wear the G/W more than anything else just because I like it.  I am well within height, weight & grooming to wear AF blue, I just usually don't.

The blue flight jacket is authorized over this uniform and that's what I use.  The USAF blue cardigan is also authorized, but is what I call a "Grandma sweater"  It was not originally intended to ever be worn exposed and why they put epaulets on it so you could wear it as an outergarment never made sense to me, especially when they are so clear that the pullover sweater cannot be used.  Why?

[Spaceman3750]

Like anyone would know what material your clothes are made of at first glance.  My Tru-spec polycotton Utility Uniform looks just like the Navy Blue NOMEX flightsuit Vanguard sells.  You can't tell the difference until you feel it or read the the tag.

or...

By the way... Either this guy forgot what PASS means or his aim just sucks. I hope I'm never in a fire with him behind the extinguisher .

[MIKE]

The RAF GPJ is far too similar to the lightweight blue jacket.  I have both, and I challenge you to tell the difference at a comfortable distance.  Sportsman's Guide sells them on occasion, that's how I got mine.

[BradM]

If you wear the Navy black windbreaker sans insignia, it is indistinguishable from a civilian outergarment WRT 39-1, so, yes, you could wear it in that mode. Unless cooler heads prevail, the CSU is gone as of 1 January 2012.  Due to that, I would not be surprised to see motions to make the black windbreaker/pullover sweater part of the G/W uniform.

All they have to do is allow the slide on rank to be used.  With no insignia these are already ok.

There are two black Navy jackets. The "windbreaker" has a pointed collar and button cuffs, and does NOT have epaulets. This jacket is for wear by E-6 and below.

The "relax fit" jacket has a stand-up knit collar and knit cuffs and bottom, and epaulets, and is primarily for officers and CPOs. It may be optionally worn by E-6 and below with the new Service Uniform.

So, which one are we talking about here/ The mix in terminology is confusing the discussion.

The photo I posted on page 1 was for the "relax fit" jacket which has a stand-up knit collar and knit cuffs and bottom, and epaulets, and is primarily for officers and CPOs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The RAF GPJ is far too similar to the lightweight blue jacket.  I have both, and I challenge you to tell the difference at a comfortable distance.  Sportsman's Guide sells them on occasion, that's how I got mine.

Really, Mike?  I used to have a New Zealand issue version of it (RAF and RNZAF uniforms are nearly identical in cut/colour).  It was a lot more grey than anything from the USAF, except for maybe '50s issue.

The RAAF "midnight blue" is much closer to our AF blue, though of course the cut is still British.

[Eclipse]

THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!

[researchdoc]

Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MIKE]

The RAF GPJ is far too similar to the lightweight blue jacket.  I have both, and I challenge you to tell the difference at a comfortable distance.  Sportsman's Guide sells them on occasion, that's how I got mine.

Really, Mike?  I used to have a New Zealand issue version of it (RAF and RNZAF uniforms are nearly identical in cut/colour).  It was a lot more grey than anything from the USAF, except for maybe '50s issue.

The only gray on my GPJ is the cat fur.  It's dark blue.