BDU Can o' Worms

[RiverAux]

It is quite likely that there are CAP-USAF comments on various CAP uniform regulation proposals buried in the minutes of the board meetings.

[SoCalMarine]

I agree with both Lordmonar and RiverAux. I think its a combination of both. CAP-USAF may have made comments on particular proposals but I've never seen a comprehensive statement.

There's a lack of transparency on the part of the USAF. Look at the ALCOASTS from the USCG. They are very open as to what was proposed and the results. If you want the minutes you can ask for them through the chain of leadership in the CGAUX.

Its hard for CAP members to propose stuff up the chain when we don't know why certain ideas didn't work. Basically we're shooting in the dark. Be nice if someone at the USAF was actually reading this forum!

[PHall]

Be nice if someone at the USAF was actually reading this forum!

What makes you think there isn't?  National Headquarters reads this stuff too.

[SoCalMarine]

Be nice if someone at the USAF was actually reading this forum!

What makes you think there isn't?  National Headquarters reads this stuff too.

Oh I didn't say I didn't think so. It was more of a hint, or could be viewed as a sarcastic response. I am 100% sure they know the complaints of the membership but they choose not to do anything.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well....that is one of the problems IMHO.

CAP-USAF has never come out with a message to the masses about what they feel about our uniforms.

Even when the CSU came out.....we only found out about USAF's feelings as part of the explaination when NHQ changed some of the rules (i.e. taking off the U.S. and putting on the C.A.P. cutouts).

Even now.....when the NEC axed the CSU all together....it was justified with "The USAF doen't like it" but no one at the ground level has ever seen any sort of opinion memo from CAP-USAF.

Personally I would love to have CAP-USAF make a public stand on what their wants and desires for our uniforms were.  It would save a lot of the belly aching we do here on CAPTALK,

Hear, hear.

I still haven't heard any concrete reason for axing the CSU other than perceived perception, not quantified, by the USAF.

My own opinion, right or wrong, is that it had to do with the previous National CC and NHQ is trying to sweep everything he did under the carpet.

[Ned]

I still haven't heard any concrete reason for axing the CSU other than perceived perception, not quantified, by the USAF.

I'm sorry the NEC members didn't brief you on the reasons for their votes.

Part of the problem is that anytime a deliberative body votes to make a decision, there can be as many "reasons" as there are persons voting.

I was in the room when the NEC voted, and based on the debate and the public and privated discussions I was part of, it was clear to me that there were multiple reasons for the CSU's demise.

Some NEC members would have voted to change anything that Gen Pineda had ever approved.  Some were reacting to USAF concerns.  Some voted to reduce the number of uniforms (IOW, would have voted to eliminate the Aviator Shirt combo if that motion had been before the NEC.)  Some had other reasons not expressed to me.  And of course, some may well have voted for a combination of the above reasons.

Bottom line is that they made a decision.

The National Uniform Committee is charged with taking a fresh look at the corporate uniforms and will be proving a report to the NB in August.

[SarDragon]

Thank you, Ned.

[lordmonar]

Thanks Ned.

And for the record... I was not belly acheing that the NEC did not breif us on why they made their decisions. 

I just look at all the uniform threads we have here.....and a lot of the pros and cons about one uniform over the other, or changes we would like to see.....all revolved around "what the USAF wants".

I agree with this....I think the USAF should have a lot of say in the uniform of their auxillary......but it is hard to formulate workable ideas when you don't know what the major player player wants.

[Ned]

I think the USAF should have a lot of say in the uniform of their auxillary......but it is hard to formulate workable ideas when you don't know what the major player player wants.

It is a little fuzzy, to be sure.  As near as I can tell, there is no one single USAF officer/office charged with making specific decisions on CAP uniform proposals.  Sure, ultimately it is someone speaking on behalf of the CSAF, but it feels like they have a different staff routing each time.

IOW, there is no one USAF O5 that we can go to and say "Well, Colonel, if we did x or y, would you guys buy off on this?"

All we can do is submit specific requests through channels starting at CAP-USAF and await the results of their staff process.  Everyone is acting in good faith, but bureaucracy is difficult to negotiate with.

Ned Lee

[lordmonar]

Tell me about it. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The National Uniform Committee is charged with taking a fresh look at the corporate uniforms and will be proving a report to the NB in August.

Ned - first of all, sir, none of what I said was intended as a swipe at you, or at anyone really.  But the way this was done really smacks, to me, of the "mushroom management syndrome."

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the "fresh look at the corporate uniforms," as per General Courter's PowerPoint, is not likely to result in anything but trying to standardise the grey pants.  It will still be the colourless grey/white with Realtor (no offence to Realtors) jacket - completely un-aviation looking especially given the many, many much more attractive civilian uniform options available.

On BDU's, I couldn't tell you when I last saw a troop wearing them.  I see quite a few National Guard locally, and they're all in ABU's; have been for some time.

SDFs may still be doing the BDU route, but that's rapidly falling by the wayside:


Georgia


Alaska

But, yes, some still are wearing woodland BDU's...in this case with full-colour collar brass:


Lieutenant Colonel James Henderson, Alabama SDF

But hold on half a mo....


Major-General Ronald Noland, CC, Alabama SDF

That is, of course, an Air Force uniform, with no modifications I can see other than the red nameplate (Radioman ought to be digging that! ) and maybe "AL" collar brass.  Hard rank and all, and five'll get you ten the General is wearing blue shoulder marks.

Why isn't the AF raising a ruckus about that?  I've heard it said they can't control uniforms used by SDF's, which I find a bit of a crock - they can tell them "don't wear our uniform!" - but there's no way you couldn't confuse the General with anything but an AF officer (which he is not, any more than we are, he is a State Defence Force officer), "low-light-at-a-distance" be hanged.

Of course, none of this is meant to disparage any of these troops' status or accomplishments.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(IOW, would have voted to eliminate the Aviator Shirt combo if that motion had been before the NEC.)

Just curious, sir...why wasn't that option on the table?

[RiverAux]

There is a National Guard regulation that covers wear of US military style uniforms with state-specific changes by SDFs.  It is horribly out of date, but there is a mechanism there. 

[Eclipse]

Why isn't the AF raising a ruckus about that?  I've heard it said they can't control uniforms used by SDF's, which I find a bit of a crock - they can tell them "don't wear our uniform!" - but there's no way you couldn't confuse the General with anything but an AF officer (which he is not, any more than we are, he is a State Defence Force officer), "low-light-at-a-distance" be hanged.

Under what authority?

They don't have carte blanch ownership of every color and jacket style in a military cut.
There's no way to tell from the photos, but I would say the only way they would have a leg to stand on
would be if it has the Hap Arnold buttons on it, which would be silly, since they are uber-simple to swap out.

The answer is easy, the USAF has direct and total control of CAP, so it is a memo and a phone call to
enforce their directives - not as simple for other organizations outside their sphere.

Now, after looking at some of their photos, it is a little sad that people who assert as much "military experience"
as they indicate in their bios are so challenged with making their uniforms look 1/2-way decent.

[Ned]

Just curious, sir...why wasn't that option on the table?

I don't think I can give you a answer that you are going to find satisfactory.

First, I am not on the NEC and can't speak for them.  I don't get a vote, nor can I introduce or veto motions.  I'm just a observer.

Second, the answer could be as simple as "it wasn't on the table because nobody made the motion."  I know that is superficial, and just begs the question of "why didn't any of the NEC makes such a motion?"

And I don't have any sort of answer for that, superficial or not.  It's just hard to say why somebody did not make a given motion.

And as to your statements about the National Uniform Committee, you may well be right that nothing very dramatic is likely to come out of a committee composed almost entirely of CAP colonels.  Typically very few rabble-rousers and anarchists are found in such a group.

But remember, that the NUC will present it's recommendations to the NB in just a couple of months.  At that point the NB will be free to accept, reject, or ignore the recommendations.  And we will have a new national commander who will almost certainly want to influence the ongoing uniform process.

We'll just have to see.

[lordmonar]

Why isn't the AF raising a ruckus about that?  I've heard it said they can't control uniforms used by SDF's, which I find a bit of a crock - they can tell them "don't wear our uniform!" - but there's no way you couldn't confuse the General with anything but an AF officer (which he is not, any more than we are, he is a State Defence Force officer), "low-light-at-a-distance" be hanged.

Under what authority?

They don't have carte blanch ownership of every color and jacket style in a military cut.
There's no way to tell from the photos, but I would say the only way they would have a leg to stand on
would be if it has the Hap Arnold buttons on it, which would be silly, since they are uber-simple to swap out.

The answer is easy, the USAF has direct and total control of CAP, so it is a memo and a phone call to
enforce their directives - not as simple for other organizations outside their sphere.

Now, after looking at some of their photos, it is a little sad that people who assert as much "military experience"
as they indicate in their bios are so challenged with making their uniforms look 1/2-way decent.

Title 10 Just like us.

§ 771. Unauthorized wearing prohibited.  Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

§ 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized
(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.
(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.
(c) A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.
(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.
(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.
(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.
(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.
(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.
(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.
(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:
(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.
(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department.

§ 773. When distinctive insignia required
(a) A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be:
(1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of—
(A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction; or
(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics.
(2) The uniform prescribed by a military society composed of persons discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps to be worn by a member of that society when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President.
(b) A uniform prescribed under subsection (a) may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.
(c) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe, any person who is permitted to attend a course of instruction prescribed for members of a reserve officers' training corps, and who is not a member of that corps, may, while attending that course of instruction, wear the uniform of that corps.

§ 776. Applicability of chapter
This chapter applies in—
(1) the United States;
(2) the territories, commonwealths, and possessions of the United States; and
(3) all other places under the jurisdiction of the United States.

[Eclipse]

So every blue jacket with or without epaulets is verboten?

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the USAF service coat isn't really any different than a standard blazer, it's not
even really a "military cut", and in NCO versions is indistinguishable from a civilian jacket.

I agree they might try to assert title 10 as a justification for a C&D, but whether it would hold would be a matter for the courts.

[lordmonar]

So every blue jacket with or without epaulets is verboten?

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the USAF service coat isn't really any different than a standard blazer, it's not
even really a "military cut", and in NCO versions is indistinguishable from a civilian jacket.

I agree they might try to assert title 10 as a justification for a C&D, but whether it would hold would be a matter for the courts.

You asked for a source...and I gave you one.

I don't think anyone activly goes after anyone for violating this law.....not unless the perpetrators cross the line an actually try to sell themselves as real AD military personnel.....otherwise they would put surpluss stores out of buisness.

And for the record I never said the AF service caot was a standard blazer.

[RiverAux]

Again, SDFs are authorized to wear uniforms of the military services (and they are authorized by federal law just like CAP is).  I will say that the federal government has not always used its authority to deal with SDFs since it is probably at the absolute bottom of their priority list.  The DoD recently undertook a review of various issues surrounding SDFs which hasn't yet been completed (the last I heard).  I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't mention uniforms in particular since they are included in the very outdated regulations relating to SDFs, though there are much bigger fish to fry in that particular reg.l

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Under what authority?

They don't have carte blanch ownership of every color and jacket style in a military cut.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get across with the potential of making the non-USAF uniforms more "aviation!"

My argument is that the AF doesn't have carte blanche of every shade of blue, or of every blue clothing item made...only THEIRS.

But it seems that whenever I, or anyone else, have mentioned anything deviating from grey and white, especially containing blue, it gets shot down quicker than Pappy Boyington taking out a Zero.

As Ned has informed us, what the USAF wants in our CAP uniforms is "fuzzy" and not clearly stated, just what they don't want when CAP members wear theirs.

So why the resistance to anything but grey/white?