BDU Can o' Worms

[SoCalMarine]

Plus look at how 'easy' or 'hard' finding BDU pieces that are of the proper specification, (read: Made to a uniform standard) vs. whatever else is out there and how easy it used to be to get them. It's easier to get BBDU stuff now because it's got many uses beyond the military, but almost no one uses woodland cammo for anything and likely either CAP or the Young Marines will be the last, closest to anything, military related organization wearing them.

Well, that's not necessarily true. Multiple SDFs are wearing them, multiple special operators are wearing them. In fact, I read in the Marine Corps Times a couple months ago that the Marine Corps started a whole new purchase contract for woodland and desert BDUs for their special operators. You also have nearly every military in Middle and South America wearing them. BDUs will not be going off the market for the considerable future, nor out of Army/Navy stores and online marketplaces.

[SoCalMarine]

Two things.

1. I disagree with the OP in that we should allow all memebrs (regardless of weight) wear the BDUs if we dropped Air Force Style from the naming. While the AF and CAP will know who's wearing the BDUs, the general public might still associate CAP members as being actual AF; although, lets be honest... if the general public can't tell the difference (or at least wonder) than that speaks more about the stupidity of the average American! I say keep the non-conforming members out of uniforms that may cause civilians to look negatively on the military.

2. Here's the biggie *********

This is a suggestion, and a question. Now that the AF no longer wears BDUs, nor does any other service except for some special operators (who aren't wearing insignia on their BDU's anyway), I say we try and get the AF to allow us to switch to subdued nametapes, sew-on badges and patches.

Now, I've heard some people here poo poo the idea immediately for multiple reasons so let me see if I can address some of them...

A. We won't have to buy out all the blue nametapes, badges and full-color patches because they can still be used on the BBDUs.

B. VG, along with other merchants, still have a significant stock of subdued blank nametape rolls and AF blue thread for stitching name and service. They'd be happy to be able to use it up.

C. There would be no cost from VG to add subdued nametapes since they already make them anyway, nor would there be a set-up charge for subdued badges because all it takes is for someone to put the correct color in the embroidering machine and voila.

D. Many units already have subdued squadron patches. For those that don't, it is not hard at all for VG, and other merchants, to take your current patch that they have on file, and change the colors to a subdued scheme. I know. I have a couple friends who work at Thomas Name Tags in Colorado Springs. I've seen how they do it, and it generally takes more time for the customer to approve it than it does to sit on the computer and switch the colors.

E. It will alleviate the amount of negative chatter going on about how stupid the blue nametapes and full-colored patches look on a woodland camouflaged uniform (I agree by the way).

F. We can maintain a full color USA flag. This will help distinguish CAP from the AF since they don't use flag patches except in-theatre, and they don't wear BDUs anymore either.

Anyway, this is a suggestion. I'm actually already working on a proposal with the former Wing Commander here to write it up, make it as professional and detailed as possible with naming the benefits to both organizations and the next step is to the Region Commander. All the CAP-USAF team can do is say no. Why not ask?

[Spaceman3750]

Lets keep the fat people out of BDUs because they're embarrassing? That really makes me want to get behind what you're talking about. Not. I understand that I and many others are not allowed to wear the Air Force uniform because of weight standards, but I think saying that we embarrass or discredit the military is more than a bit harsh.

It's interesting that you call Americans stupid if they can't distinguish us from AF. Frankly, I know many intelligent people and I can guarantee you that not one of them would be able to tell. Why? Because they have better things to do than study the intricacies of the Air Force uniforms. They're not stupid, they just don't know or care how all this works.

[SoCalMarine]

Lets keep the fat people out of BDUs because they're embarrassing? That really makes me want to get behind what you're talking about. Not. I understand that I and many others are not allowed to wear the Air Force uniform because of weight standards, but I think saying that we embarrass or discredit the military is more than a bit harsh.

For one, that's not what I meant to imply. I think you're just sensitive to the topic. Anyway, there IS a reason that the AF and CAP have weight standards. Its because overweight people do not present the image that the two organizations are looking to have out there to the general public. Why are you jumping on me for just stating what they state? What other possible reason could there be for saying people over a certain weight aren't allowed to wear the uniform.

Anyway, again it wasn't my intent to insult you. I knew what I meant when I wrote it. You just interpreted it differently. I apologize.

It's interesting that you call Americans stupid if they can't distinguish us from AF. Frankly, I know many intelligent people and I can guarantee you that not one of them would be able to tell. Why? Because they have better things to do than study the intricacies of the Air Force uniforms. They're not stupid, they just don't know or care how all this works.

I was referring to people I have seen ask cadets if they were in the AF amongst other examples. Do you honestly think that someone who looks every bit of 14 is in the AF? Come on people. Also, the uniforms clearly say Civil Air Patrol and not US AIR FORCE. Not being able to tell the difference with that is about as stupid (IMO) as asking someone if they're in the Navy when they see someone in a US AIR FORCE labeled uniform.

However, this isn't the place to really discuss the stupidity of Americans in general, but if we did I could cite poll after poll after poll after news story that shows Americans can't even pass 10th grade history and other assorted tests. Just look at this link for Pete's sake:  http://rt.com/usa/news/usa-ignorance-fail-knowledge-tests/

[RADIOMAN015]

Hmm, I wondering what state(s) CAP is the invasion force to   Other than cadets & seniors wanting to play Army so to speak, we would be best served image/identity by moving to the Blue BDU's with appropriate very colorful patches that says we are the CIVIL AIR PATROL.  IMHO We need to concentrate on the quality and expansion of our performance of "Missions for America" rather than uniforms.

The AF is not going to approve ANYTHING subdued (e.g. name, organization tags) for CAP, pure and simple.

Field operations is where we make the biggest impact and it stands to reason that a consistent field uniform (including blue flight suits) would help with our brand identity with potentially much less confusion to the general public that we are military members.

Historically CAP has followed the USAF in the field uniform being utilized by them with the appropriate grooming/modified weight standards having to be met.  Since BDU's basically are just about (if not completely) phased out for US military use, now is the time for the NB to go to one field uniform all and set a phase out date for BDU's and a phase in date for Blue BDU's (and flight suit) for the membership.
RM       

[RiverAux]

It's interesting that you call Americans stupid if they can't distinguish us from AF. Frankly, I know many intelligent people and I can guarantee you that not one of them would be able to tell. Why? Because they have better things to do than study the intricacies of the Air Force uniforms. They're not stupid, they just don't know or care how all this works.

There is absolutely no way that ANYONE that can read could possibly confuse a CAP member in a BDU uniform with anyone in the Air Force since there is not one single thing worn on the CAP AF-style uniform that says "Air Force" on it and there never has been. 

Now, I can certainly understand that the BDU pattern alone would get people to think that we're in the generic "military", but any idea of which service we're associated with comes out of their heads rather than anything on our uniform. 

There never has been any excuse for anyone in the real military to not immediately know that we're not one the 5 US military services as these folks are expected to know the intricacies of the insignia of all branches, though I would certainly understand if they didn't know who we actually were.

[wuzafuzz]

No need to go with subdued insignia in CAP.  I'm all for dumping the garish ultramarine blue backgrounds, but think bright insignia on olive drab backing would work just fine.

While we're at it, lose the ultramarine on the BBDU's too.  Change the backing to match the BBDU fabric.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Lets keep the fat people out of BDUs because they're embarrassing? That really makes me want to get behind what you're talking about. Not. I understand that I and many others are not allowed to wear the Air Force uniform because of weight standards, but I think saying that we embarrass or discredit the military is more than a bit harsh.

For one, that's not what I meant to imply. I think you're just sensitive to the topic. Anyway, there IS a reason that the AF and CAP have weight standards. Its because overweight people do not present the image that the two organizations are looking to have out there to the general public. Why are you jumping on me for just stating what they state? What other possible reason could there be for saying people over a certain weight aren't allowed to wear the uniform.

I have to agree with Spaceman3750. If you don't make AF weight standards you eventually get shown the door, but until then you wear the uniform. If you don't make CAP AF Uniform weight standards you get to wear different clothing. CAP's standard is based on old AF ones which are no longer in use. If I remember correctly the AF standards allow for getting older and have exception for people who are fit but don't make the chart.

[Eclipse]

Anyway, there IS a reason that the AF and CAP have weight standards. Its because overweight people do not present the image that the two organizations are looking to have out there to the general public. Why are you jumping on me for just stating what they state? What other possible reason could there be for saying people over a certain weight aren't allowed to wear the uniform.

Let's be clear about this, the issue regarding weight and the USAF-Style uniform is an issue of the USAF being concerned about the USAF, not CAP.

It is not an issue of ability, health standards, or CAP's image.  Someone in the USAF decided, and continues to believe, that having their uniform seam-tested by overweight volunteers denigrates their public persona.

Period.

[lordmonar]

The issue about USAF weight standards.....is that a) They don't really have them...they have a PT/waist measurement standard and b) they don't make their fat and fuzzies (those on shaving waivers) wear alternate uniforms.   

In theory they get rid of anyone who can't make PT standards and they can klick out someone who is constantly getting a shaving waiver/hair cut wiaver.

I have never understood the supposed USAF's position that they can't survive a fat and fuzzy embarrasement to  their uniform....I can stand outside my office door three times a week and point out 30-40 people who don't meet AF weight standards and yet are REQUIRED to wear the air force uniform everyday.

25% of airman are expected to fail the USAF PT standards.....stange that I don't see a whole lot of people wearing blazers or blue BDUs.
That has always been my peeve with the corporate uniforms.  Even back in the day when we wore hard rank and blue name tags.....you had to be blind and dumb (not mute) to NOT be able to tell the difference between a CAP and USAF officer.

Okay.....end of rant.  Thank you for your time.

[billford1]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement? 

[arajca]

IIRC, when CAP changed to the bdu, the fat & fuzzies could wear the bdu and sage flight suit without grade. Unfortunately, many of those members failed to comprehend that "without grade" meant do not wear grade insignia. Around 2001 (+- a couple years), the AF said no more. I don't have any documentation for this, though.

[SoCalMarine]

Hmm, I wondering what state(s) CAP is the invasion force to   Other than cadets & seniors wanting to play Army so to speak, we would be best served image/identity by moving to the Blue BDU's with appropriate very colorful patches that says we are the CIVIL AIR PATROL.  IMHO We need to concentrate on the quality and expansion of our performance of "Missions for America" rather than uniforms.

In your opinion is correct. First, you really mean to suggest that you believe CAP would go from an auxiliary to an invasion force through the simple change in color? Seriously? That's really stretching. Also, for those of us who have "played Army" for real, I can tell you that nothing about being in CAP even remotely compares to being in the service. Nothing about my suggesting switching to a uniform that looks more professional means that I, or others who agree, are looking to inflate our egos.

I've gathered from your other posts here, and people's comments about them, that you are against CAP using military style uniforms; however, even though I think the BBDUs look stupid they are still military-like. So, then it can't be that you're against using military-style uniforms. If the first statement there is correct, then I would suggest your issue is being military affiliated at all. Granted this is all an assumption, but I'm basing it off things you've constantly being saying and the feel I get from them. If that's the case though, why be part of CAP knowing its a quasi-military organization?

The AF is not going to approve ANYTHING subdued (e.g. name, organization tags) for CAP, pure and simple.

That is your opinion again. You have no way of knowing that. You simply don't. I heard SMs make the same comments in the late 80's when I was a cadet... "The AF is not going to approve ANYTHING that is BDU for CAP." Well, we see how that one worked out. The AF has always approved uniform changes that allowed CAP to look the most professional possible without being confused with the AF by maintaining CAP distinctiveness.

Field operations is where we make the biggest impact and it stands to reason that a consistent field uniform (including blue flight suits) would help with our brand identity with potentially much less confusion to the general public that we are military members.

First, I'm IN CAP and I am confused by your statement. Are you saying that the public is confused by the uniforms and therefore think we are military, or are you saying the public is confused because we are military?

Also, why should I have to wear retarded looking BBDUs simply because people don't want to look military (which you'll still be thought of as military by the general public), or because some personnel can't either meet grooming standards or fitness standards?

Personally, I will NEVER wear any of the blue uniforms. They look retarded, and something that a Boy Scout troop would wear. That's my opinion on the subject. The BBDUs are a mockery to me. Every other organization out there that I've seen that wears BBDUs (of any shade of blue) still wear subdued blue tapes and patches. Just look at LAPD. You wanna talk about people looking like they play Army? Wearing the BBDU with all the pretty little colorful patches.

Historically CAP has followed the USAF in the field uniform being utilized by them with the appropriate grooming/modified weight standards having to be met.  Since BDU's basically are just about (if not completely) phased out for US military use, now is the time for the NB to go to one field uniform all and set a phase out date for BDU's and a phase in date for Blue BDU's (and flight suit) for the membership.

This whole paragraph contradicts itself. Your reasoning for going to blue BBDUs is that they BDU is gone with the USAF; however, you state that historically CAP follows suit by wearing the AF style field uniform. So, using the logic at the beginning of the sentence it would mean that CAP should move towards ABUs and not towards BBDUs. You made two opposing statements there.

I'll put it this way, it is my strong opinion based on what I feel, and what others I know personally feel, that if CAP went to a BBDU only uniform than CAP would be the most corporate looking auxiliary out there because we'd all be wearing the polo shirt and slacks. Many of us have said either the polo in that situation or we'd drop CAP in a heartbeat. We may not be the majority, but we'd be a significant number.

[SoCalMarine]

There never has been any excuse for anyone in the real military to not immediately know that we're not one the 5 US military services as these folks are expected to know the intricacies of the insignia of all branches, though I would certainly understand if they didn't know who we actually were.

Correct. When I joined the Corps in 1994 we all wore BDUs except the Coasties. I could tell from 25 yards out what branch of service someone was in simply based on their cover, the way they carried themselves, etc. Than again, I cared to be able to make that distinction. NEVER did I confuse someone in CAP as being AF. Simply didn't. CAP members don't carry themselves in a military manner. They diddy bop when they walk, they don't clasp their hands, they don't walk in step, they don't walk with the highest ranking to the correct side. It just looks like a gaggle of people moving from A to B with senior members. Don't get me wrong, I understand it happens because there's no military training. I'm just making the point that if you as a civilian and think someone is AF because you see camouflage even though they are overweight, and have a beard? You're an idiot plain and simple.

[lordmonar]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement?

In the Air Force?  I don't ever remember anything like that while I was in (86-2008).

There was a program that said if you were on the weight managmement program you could not PCS, go TDY to schools, go to PME, or promote....but we were never ever restricted to just BDUs.

[SoCalMarine]

The Royal Australian Navy has an interesting mostly-grey camouflage...maybe the "grey only" zealots in CAP would like it...

What the heck is the white strip on their arms?

Anyway, I never saw the point in a branch wearing a camouflage color that wouldn't camouflage them anywhere they'd be doing combat.

[SoCalMarine]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement?

In the Air Force?  I don't ever remember anything like that while I was in (86-2008).

There was a program that said if you were on the weight managmement program you could not PCS, go TDY to schools, go to PME, or promote....but we were never ever restricted to just BDUs.

No no, he was meaning CAP senior members during the transition from fatigues to BDUs.

[bassque]

This is indeed an interesting conversation.  One thing that I have noticed, even when I was a Cadet is that folks have differing opinions based on what capacity they came into Civil Air Patrol.  I know these programs interspace and I'm probably over simplifying but here are my observations.   Folks like myself and SoCalMarine see it from the Cadet perspective.  Where others see it from the aerospace and ES point of view.  I know that the way I feel about which uniform we should wear varies widely with someone who joined as a senior member in their 30s perhaps who is focused more on ES activities.  Both point of views are correct IMO.  I think that National has actually done a really good job trying to keep all of us relatively happy. 

Someone mentioned cadets and senior members "playing Army" where I feel this is pretty offensive to the Cadet programs.  We don't wear the uniform to be like the Military, we wear it because it represents what we are proud of.  Thus a lot of us spend quite a bit of time perfecting the way we look in the uniform.  Personal opinion comes into play here but I believe we look better as a whole in the BDU uniform.  Could I make my Blue BDU shine up as well as my Green?  Probably.  I also agree with another individual who contends that because the AF does not wear the uniform, we need to relax the physical issues with wearing the BDUs.  But this being said,  that is because I focus a lot on my time as a cadet and the current cadet corps.  It doesn't necessarily take into consideration the ES activities that I've been on.  My ES BDUs looked sharp but were certainly more for boonie stomping in the woods looking for an ELT.  I think the orange vests are sufficient safety on ES missions.  I would be in favor of a different cover however.  (Orange? Blue?)

Now with all of that said,  I can understand why someone else would feel differently about what the uniform means to the organization.  I can understand that folks more involved with ES would look at it from a practical and safety standpoint.  From the branding perspective,  I agree that options = confusion on the part of the American public.  That's why I'm in favor of the green BDU with the physical restrictions relaxed.  Also,  I think it's our jobs to educate the public as well.  C/Airmens on up should be able to articulate who we are and what we do IMO.  It's part of their learning in Phase 1.  I also feel, along with SoCalMarine, that when the uniform is in poor display, it tarnishes the brand.  Not the Militaries, ours.

I just went and bought more Starch....   My 2 cents!

Happy Fathers day everyone!

[billford1]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement?

In the Air Force?  I don't ever remember anything like that while I was in (86-2008).

There was a program that said if you were on the weight managmement program you could not PCS, go TDY to schools, go to PME, or promote....but we were never ever restricted to just BDUs.

No no, he was meaning CAP senior members during the transition from fatigues to BDUs.

Thank You. When I joined in WA State in 2002 the BDU was I think still allowed for those with a goatee, but without rank insignia. In 2003 in another wing, I was invited to attend an encampment where they needed TAC Officers. I was concerned about the regs and was told that I was ok with the BDU. At the encampment I was approached by several leaders including the MER Commander (really great guy) who asked me to shave it off. I politely refused and suggested that I should leave. The Encampment Commander made light of the fact that the reg was not in the latest publication of 39-1 at that time. They were nice about it and asked me to stay.  I went out and bought a BBDU not long after that event. I'm just curious about what may have been published about the AF decision that drove the reg change requiring the BBDU.

[lordmonar]

Well....that is one of the problems IMHO.

CAP-USAF has never come out with a message to the masses about what they feel about our uniforms.

Even when the CSU came out.....we only found out about USAF's feelings as part of the explaination when NHQ changed some of the rules (i.e. taking off the U.S. and putting on the C.A.P. cutouts).

Even now.....when the NEC axed the CSU all together....it was justified with "The USAF doen't like it" but no one at the ground level has ever seen any sort of opinion memo from CAP-USAF.

Personally I would love to have CAP-USAF make a public stand on what their wants and desires for our uniforms were.  It would save a lot of the belly aching we do here on CAPTALK,