BDU Can o' Worms

[Sapper168]

Here is a thought, neither right nor wrong, just a thought. 

After the BDU phase out date for the Air Force the BDU will no longer be an authorized uniform for wear.  We could at that point petition to remove from the BDU  the label of 'Air force style' uniform and let all members wear it. 

It sure would bring about more uniformity in appearence.

[jeders]

Do a search for dead horse and beating, and you'll find our thoughts on this.

[a2capt]

Plus look at how 'easy' or 'hard' finding BDU pieces that are of the proper specification, (read: Made to a uniform standard) vs. whatever else is out there and how easy it used to be to get them. It's easier to get BBDU stuff now because it's got many uses beyond the military, but almost no one uses woodland cammo for anything and likely either CAP or the Young Marines will be the last, closest to anything, military related organization wearing them.

[RiverAux]

I proposed that very idea several years ago, but no one seemed to like it. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The only part of the military I know of still wearing BDU's are a very small segment of the Coast Guard.

[HGjunkie]

The only part of the military I know of still wearing BDU's are a very small segment of the Coast Guard.

I see Navy guys wearing them around my local AFB every so often.

[SARDOC]

The only part of the military I know of still wearing BDU's are a very small segment of the Coast Guard.

I see Navy guys wearing them around my local AFB every so often.

That's either because they are SEABEE's or just haven't been issued the NWU's yet

[Spaceman3750]

The only part of the military I know of still wearing BDU's are a very small segment of the Coast Guard.

I see Navy guys wearing them around my local AFB every so often.

That's either because they are SEABEE's or just haven't been issued the NWU's yet

I saw an O-6 wearing one at Great Lakes...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I saw an O-6 wearing one at Great Lakes...

O-6's basically do what they want, because outside of someone with stars on their shoulders, who's going to tell them not to?

Most of the Sailors I've seen, if not wearing "crackerjacks" or some other sort of dress-type uniform, have been wearing the blue working uniform.  I haven't yet seen anyone wearing the new Navy camouflage.

The Royal Australian Navy has an interesting mostly-grey camouflage...maybe the "grey only" zealots in CAP would like it...

[HGjunkie]

Speaking of the NWU, there were a lot of navy guys wearing them at MacDill today.

[SarDragon]

NWU is getting pretty universal here in the SD area, but I think this was one of the test areas, so they've been here longer.

[Eclipse]

Great Lakes is NWU and NSU all the way, that what you see on 90+ percent of everyone up there, with a scattering of BDU here and there, and then of course ABU/ACU/MARPAT depending on service.

I don't believe they issue the denims to recruits anymore, and there are no longer BDU's in the NAVEx's, except for the occasional close-out sale, etc.
Last year sometime they pulled the last of the USAF blues they had - some of those enlisted jackets had hung dusty and untouched for years.

[MIKE]

I can see where the Navy is going with the NWU, having now worn both versions of the Coast Guard ODU... The solid blue color is a magnet for dirt, especially here in New England during winter with all the salt and sand... I don't remember my CAP BDUs getting this bad just stepping out of the car, but I never wore the Field Uniform.

I would like a soft cap that is easier to stow in the trouser pockets than the ball cap, and can more easily take cloth insignia.  Have seen pics ADM Papp wear testing a blue utility cover when he was down for DWH.

Sleeve pockets, I like the Marine style ones on the NWU... Mostly for looks, but it would mean small pockets for my phone etc, that are easier to access than my belt or trouser pockets with the UODU.

[Hawk200]

Mostly for looks, but it would mean small pockets for my phone etc, that are easier to access than my belt or trouser pockets with the UODU.

I will say that's the nice thing about the ACU. Sleeve pockets are great for a phone, sunglasses, and a notepad/pen.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Mostly for looks, but it would mean small pockets for my phone etc, that are easier to access than my belt or trouser pockets with the UODU.

I will say that's the nice thing about the ACU. Sleeve pockets are great for a phone, sunglasses, and a notepad/pen.

There are about a million pluses about the ACU, the pockets (all of them), the boots are extremely comfortable and easy to maintain, the material is comfortable, and the cut of the uniform is very comfortable. I think that is why some Airmen on some Army installations wear them, or an ABU pattern on an ACU cut uniform. I have seen it many times at Ft. Campbell. True, both patterns of "camouflage" are hideous, but hey, at least the Army got the feel of the uniform right. I would prefer the ACU to the ABU, but we all know (or we all better know) this is the USAF Aux, not the USA Aux, so the ACU is out of the question. But now we have the issue of when the phase in will start for us with the ABU. We already know that the ABU will be authorized for us, but when and with what alterations is the question. This question has been hit so many times lets not [insert picture of beating a dead horse here]. Just let it ride, and it will happen when it happens.

[SARDOC]

I don't believe they issue the denims to recruits anymore, and there are no longer BDU's in the NAVEx's, except for the occasional close-out sale, etc.
Last year sometime they pulled the last of the USAF blues they had - some of those enlisted jackets had hung dusty and untouched for years.

Denims frequently Called Dungarees haven't been issued since like 96-97...They went to a similar colored uniform but not actually denim...almost the same as the Coast Guard in cut and material.  All those started getting phased out before the NWU was introduced.

[BGNightfall]

The old denim utilities went out quite a while ago and were replaced by a poly/cotton blend for the trousers, similar to Dickies, or various other kinds of service sector uniforms.  Unfortunately they were not very durable and tended to wear out quickly.  The chambray shirt was similar, but around the time the denim dungarees went out, so too did stenciled name and rate on the shirt. 

And so ends an unnecessary sidetrack.

For the OP, I would personally like to stay as close to the Air Force as possible with our uniforms, even if that does mean adopting their (in my opinion misguided) working uniform.   Honestly, adopting one camouflage uniform is about as ridiculous as adopting any other, for our mission purposes, but we are also a civilian arm of the Air Force, and our attire should reflect that.  That would also be a good time to clean up our uniform's appearance to cut down on some of the clutter, and maybe even our uniform regulation as well! 

[Ltc Browne]

Personally, I think the CAP should go to wearing the blue fatigue uniform.  I was never in favor of the BDU's.  When you are on a search mission, you want to be visable, and BDU's prevent that. 

As far as the uniform for search and rescue, it should be a Orange Shirt, with the Paramedic type trousers, the one's with multiple pockets. 

CA Wing uses a simular uniform for their SAR Missions.  I have one myself.  The only thing not on it is the rank insignia.  I don't wear that uniform because I am in GA Wing, though living in VA.

[Hawk200]

Personally, I think the CAP should go to wearing the blue fatigue uniform.

Blue fatigues when out with green ones, I doubt you'd even find any of those at all these days, except in maybe an Air Force Transient Alert museum.

I was never in favor of the BDU's.  When you are on a search mission, you want to be visable, and BDU's prevent that.

Then you're doing something wrong. There's a requirement for an orange vest when you're in the field. "I can't be seen in BDUs" is a failed argument. If you don't have the vest, you shouldn't be out on a search in the first place.

As far as the uniform for search and rescue, it should be a Orange Shirt, with the Paramedic type trousers, the one's with multiple pockets. 

CA Wing uses a simular uniform for their SAR Missions.  I have one myself.  The only thing not on it is the rank insignia.

The "CalTrans" ground team uniform. I remember those. I can understand a single style orange shirt to wear in place of a standard BDU top, I even advocated such a thing, but it needs to be a standardized shirt not a hodge podge of orange shades. In California, I remember seeing six different types of orange shirt (in varying shades of orange) during the Northridge quake relief efforts. Not really all that uniform.

We don't need paramedic pants. Much of the public is familiar with them, and it would imply that CAP is something it is not. That could create problems. With just a shirt, it avoids problems with where the uniform is authorized. There would be problems with a whole uniform being worn at regular meetings where it wouldn't be needed. Someone always shows off that they have something when they don't need to do so. There were people in Cali that regularly wore the "CalTrans" uniform to meetings, commanders calls, encampments and were regularly counseled that it wasn't authorized, but they did it anyway.

[arBar]

Don't forget that lots of state defense forces wear the woodland camo bdu.  As long as there is a demand for it, someone will make it.

[SoCalMarine]

Plus look at how 'easy' or 'hard' finding BDU pieces that are of the proper specification, (read: Made to a uniform standard) vs. whatever else is out there and how easy it used to be to get them. It's easier to get BBDU stuff now because it's got many uses beyond the military, but almost no one uses woodland cammo for anything and likely either CAP or the Young Marines will be the last, closest to anything, military related organization wearing them.

Well, that's not necessarily true. Multiple SDFs are wearing them, multiple special operators are wearing them. In fact, I read in the Marine Corps Times a couple months ago that the Marine Corps started a whole new purchase contract for woodland and desert BDUs for their special operators. You also have nearly every military in Middle and South America wearing them. BDUs will not be going off the market for the considerable future, nor out of Army/Navy stores and online marketplaces.

[SoCalMarine]

Two things.

1. I disagree with the OP in that we should allow all memebrs (regardless of weight) wear the BDUs if we dropped Air Force Style from the naming. While the AF and CAP will know who's wearing the BDUs, the general public might still associate CAP members as being actual AF; although, lets be honest... if the general public can't tell the difference (or at least wonder) than that speaks more about the stupidity of the average American! I say keep the non-conforming members out of uniforms that may cause civilians to look negatively on the military.

2. Here's the biggie *********

This is a suggestion, and a question. Now that the AF no longer wears BDUs, nor does any other service except for some special operators (who aren't wearing insignia on their BDU's anyway), I say we try and get the AF to allow us to switch to subdued nametapes, sew-on badges and patches.

Now, I've heard some people here poo poo the idea immediately for multiple reasons so let me see if I can address some of them...

A. We won't have to buy out all the blue nametapes, badges and full-color patches because they can still be used on the BBDUs.

B. VG, along with other merchants, still have a significant stock of subdued blank nametape rolls and AF blue thread for stitching name and service. They'd be happy to be able to use it up.

C. There would be no cost from VG to add subdued nametapes since they already make them anyway, nor would there be a set-up charge for subdued badges because all it takes is for someone to put the correct color in the embroidering machine and voila.

D. Many units already have subdued squadron patches. For those that don't, it is not hard at all for VG, and other merchants, to take your current patch that they have on file, and change the colors to a subdued scheme. I know. I have a couple friends who work at Thomas Name Tags in Colorado Springs. I've seen how they do it, and it generally takes more time for the customer to approve it than it does to sit on the computer and switch the colors.

E. It will alleviate the amount of negative chatter going on about how stupid the blue nametapes and full-colored patches look on a woodland camouflaged uniform (I agree by the way).

F. We can maintain a full color USA flag. This will help distinguish CAP from the AF since they don't use flag patches except in-theatre, and they don't wear BDUs anymore either.

Anyway, this is a suggestion. I'm actually already working on a proposal with the former Wing Commander here to write it up, make it as professional and detailed as possible with naming the benefits to both organizations and the next step is to the Region Commander. All the CAP-USAF team can do is say no. Why not ask?

[Spaceman3750]

Lets keep the fat people out of BDUs because they're embarrassing? That really makes me want to get behind what you're talking about. Not. I understand that I and many others are not allowed to wear the Air Force uniform because of weight standards, but I think saying that we embarrass or discredit the military is more than a bit harsh.

It's interesting that you call Americans stupid if they can't distinguish us from AF. Frankly, I know many intelligent people and I can guarantee you that not one of them would be able to tell. Why? Because they have better things to do than study the intricacies of the Air Force uniforms. They're not stupid, they just don't know or care how all this works.

[SoCalMarine]

Lets keep the fat people out of BDUs because they're embarrassing? That really makes me want to get behind what you're talking about. Not. I understand that I and many others are not allowed to wear the Air Force uniform because of weight standards, but I think saying that we embarrass or discredit the military is more than a bit harsh.

For one, that's not what I meant to imply. I think you're just sensitive to the topic. Anyway, there IS a reason that the AF and CAP have weight standards. Its because overweight people do not present the image that the two organizations are looking to have out there to the general public. Why are you jumping on me for just stating what they state? What other possible reason could there be for saying people over a certain weight aren't allowed to wear the uniform.

Anyway, again it wasn't my intent to insult you. I knew what I meant when I wrote it. You just interpreted it differently. I apologize.

It's interesting that you call Americans stupid if they can't distinguish us from AF. Frankly, I know many intelligent people and I can guarantee you that not one of them would be able to tell. Why? Because they have better things to do than study the intricacies of the Air Force uniforms. They're not stupid, they just don't know or care how all this works.

I was referring to people I have seen ask cadets if they were in the AF amongst other examples. Do you honestly think that someone who looks every bit of 14 is in the AF? Come on people. Also, the uniforms clearly say Civil Air Patrol and not US AIR FORCE. Not being able to tell the difference with that is about as stupid (IMO) as asking someone if they're in the Navy when they see someone in a US AIR FORCE labeled uniform.

However, this isn't the place to really discuss the stupidity of Americans in general, but if we did I could cite poll after poll after poll after news story that shows Americans can't even pass 10th grade history and other assorted tests. Just look at this link for Pete's sake:  http://rt.com/usa/news/usa-ignorance-fail-knowledge-tests/

[RADIOMAN015]

Hmm, I wondering what state(s) CAP is the invasion force to   Other than cadets & seniors wanting to play Army so to speak, we would be best served image/identity by moving to the Blue BDU's with appropriate very colorful patches that says we are the CIVIL AIR PATROL.  IMHO We need to concentrate on the quality and expansion of our performance of "Missions for America" rather than uniforms.

The AF is not going to approve ANYTHING subdued (e.g. name, organization tags) for CAP, pure and simple.

Field operations is where we make the biggest impact and it stands to reason that a consistent field uniform (including blue flight suits) would help with our brand identity with potentially much less confusion to the general public that we are military members.

Historically CAP has followed the USAF in the field uniform being utilized by them with the appropriate grooming/modified weight standards having to be met.  Since BDU's basically are just about (if not completely) phased out for US military use, now is the time for the NB to go to one field uniform all and set a phase out date for BDU's and a phase in date for Blue BDU's (and flight suit) for the membership.
RM       

[RiverAux]

It's interesting that you call Americans stupid if they can't distinguish us from AF. Frankly, I know many intelligent people and I can guarantee you that not one of them would be able to tell. Why? Because they have better things to do than study the intricacies of the Air Force uniforms. They're not stupid, they just don't know or care how all this works.

There is absolutely no way that ANYONE that can read could possibly confuse a CAP member in a BDU uniform with anyone in the Air Force since there is not one single thing worn on the CAP AF-style uniform that says "Air Force" on it and there never has been. 

Now, I can certainly understand that the BDU pattern alone would get people to think that we're in the generic "military", but any idea of which service we're associated with comes out of their heads rather than anything on our uniform. 

There never has been any excuse for anyone in the real military to not immediately know that we're not one the 5 US military services as these folks are expected to know the intricacies of the insignia of all branches, though I would certainly understand if they didn't know who we actually were.

[wuzafuzz]

No need to go with subdued insignia in CAP.  I'm all for dumping the garish ultramarine blue backgrounds, but think bright insignia on olive drab backing would work just fine.

While we're at it, lose the ultramarine on the BBDU's too.  Change the backing to match the BBDU fabric.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Lets keep the fat people out of BDUs because they're embarrassing? That really makes me want to get behind what you're talking about. Not. I understand that I and many others are not allowed to wear the Air Force uniform because of weight standards, but I think saying that we embarrass or discredit the military is more than a bit harsh.

For one, that's not what I meant to imply. I think you're just sensitive to the topic. Anyway, there IS a reason that the AF and CAP have weight standards. Its because overweight people do not present the image that the two organizations are looking to have out there to the general public. Why are you jumping on me for just stating what they state? What other possible reason could there be for saying people over a certain weight aren't allowed to wear the uniform.

I have to agree with Spaceman3750. If you don't make AF weight standards you eventually get shown the door, but until then you wear the uniform. If you don't make CAP AF Uniform weight standards you get to wear different clothing. CAP's standard is based on old AF ones which are no longer in use. If I remember correctly the AF standards allow for getting older and have exception for people who are fit but don't make the chart.

[Eclipse]

Anyway, there IS a reason that the AF and CAP have weight standards. Its because overweight people do not present the image that the two organizations are looking to have out there to the general public. Why are you jumping on me for just stating what they state? What other possible reason could there be for saying people over a certain weight aren't allowed to wear the uniform.

Let's be clear about this, the issue regarding weight and the USAF-Style uniform is an issue of the USAF being concerned about the USAF, not CAP.

It is not an issue of ability, health standards, or CAP's image.  Someone in the USAF decided, and continues to believe, that having their uniform seam-tested by overweight volunteers denigrates their public persona.

Period.

[lordmonar]

The issue about USAF weight standards.....is that a) They don't really have them...they have a PT/waist measurement standard and b) they don't make their fat and fuzzies (those on shaving waivers) wear alternate uniforms.   

In theory they get rid of anyone who can't make PT standards and they can klick out someone who is constantly getting a shaving waiver/hair cut wiaver.

I have never understood the supposed USAF's position that they can't survive a fat and fuzzy embarrasement to  their uniform....I can stand outside my office door three times a week and point out 30-40 people who don't meet AF weight standards and yet are REQUIRED to wear the air force uniform everyday.

25% of airman are expected to fail the USAF PT standards.....stange that I don't see a whole lot of people wearing blazers or blue BDUs.
That has always been my peeve with the corporate uniforms.  Even back in the day when we wore hard rank and blue name tags.....you had to be blind and dumb (not mute) to NOT be able to tell the difference between a CAP and USAF officer.

Okay.....end of rant.  Thank you for your time.

[billford1]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement? 

[arajca]

IIRC, when CAP changed to the bdu, the fat & fuzzies could wear the bdu and sage flight suit without grade. Unfortunately, many of those members failed to comprehend that "without grade" meant do not wear grade insignia. Around 2001 (+- a couple years), the AF said no more. I don't have any documentation for this, though.

[SoCalMarine]

Hmm, I wondering what state(s) CAP is the invasion force to   Other than cadets & seniors wanting to play Army so to speak, we would be best served image/identity by moving to the Blue BDU's with appropriate very colorful patches that says we are the CIVIL AIR PATROL.  IMHO We need to concentrate on the quality and expansion of our performance of "Missions for America" rather than uniforms.

In your opinion is correct. First, you really mean to suggest that you believe CAP would go from an auxiliary to an invasion force through the simple change in color? Seriously? That's really stretching. Also, for those of us who have "played Army" for real, I can tell you that nothing about being in CAP even remotely compares to being in the service. Nothing about my suggesting switching to a uniform that looks more professional means that I, or others who agree, are looking to inflate our egos.

I've gathered from your other posts here, and people's comments about them, that you are against CAP using military style uniforms; however, even though I think the BBDUs look stupid they are still military-like. So, then it can't be that you're against using military-style uniforms. If the first statement there is correct, then I would suggest your issue is being military affiliated at all. Granted this is all an assumption, but I'm basing it off things you've constantly being saying and the feel I get from them. If that's the case though, why be part of CAP knowing its a quasi-military organization?

The AF is not going to approve ANYTHING subdued (e.g. name, organization tags) for CAP, pure and simple.

That is your opinion again. You have no way of knowing that. You simply don't. I heard SMs make the same comments in the late 80's when I was a cadet... "The AF is not going to approve ANYTHING that is BDU for CAP." Well, we see how that one worked out. The AF has always approved uniform changes that allowed CAP to look the most professional possible without being confused with the AF by maintaining CAP distinctiveness.

Field operations is where we make the biggest impact and it stands to reason that a consistent field uniform (including blue flight suits) would help with our brand identity with potentially much less confusion to the general public that we are military members.

First, I'm IN CAP and I am confused by your statement. Are you saying that the public is confused by the uniforms and therefore think we are military, or are you saying the public is confused because we are military?

Also, why should I have to wear retarded looking BBDUs simply because people don't want to look military (which you'll still be thought of as military by the general public), or because some personnel can't either meet grooming standards or fitness standards?

Personally, I will NEVER wear any of the blue uniforms. They look retarded, and something that a Boy Scout troop would wear. That's my opinion on the subject. The BBDUs are a mockery to me. Every other organization out there that I've seen that wears BBDUs (of any shade of blue) still wear subdued blue tapes and patches. Just look at LAPD. You wanna talk about people looking like they play Army? Wearing the BBDU with all the pretty little colorful patches.

Historically CAP has followed the USAF in the field uniform being utilized by them with the appropriate grooming/modified weight standards having to be met.  Since BDU's basically are just about (if not completely) phased out for US military use, now is the time for the NB to go to one field uniform all and set a phase out date for BDU's and a phase in date for Blue BDU's (and flight suit) for the membership.

This whole paragraph contradicts itself. Your reasoning for going to blue BBDUs is that they BDU is gone with the USAF; however, you state that historically CAP follows suit by wearing the AF style field uniform. So, using the logic at the beginning of the sentence it would mean that CAP should move towards ABUs and not towards BBDUs. You made two opposing statements there.

I'll put it this way, it is my strong opinion based on what I feel, and what others I know personally feel, that if CAP went to a BBDU only uniform than CAP would be the most corporate looking auxiliary out there because we'd all be wearing the polo shirt and slacks. Many of us have said either the polo in that situation or we'd drop CAP in a heartbeat. We may not be the majority, but we'd be a significant number.

[SoCalMarine]

There never has been any excuse for anyone in the real military to not immediately know that we're not one the 5 US military services as these folks are expected to know the intricacies of the insignia of all branches, though I would certainly understand if they didn't know who we actually were.

Correct. When I joined the Corps in 1994 we all wore BDUs except the Coasties. I could tell from 25 yards out what branch of service someone was in simply based on their cover, the way they carried themselves, etc. Than again, I cared to be able to make that distinction. NEVER did I confuse someone in CAP as being AF. Simply didn't. CAP members don't carry themselves in a military manner. They diddy bop when they walk, they don't clasp their hands, they don't walk in step, they don't walk with the highest ranking to the correct side. It just looks like a gaggle of people moving from A to B with senior members. Don't get me wrong, I understand it happens because there's no military training. I'm just making the point that if you as a civilian and think someone is AF because you see camouflage even though they are overweight, and have a beard? You're an idiot plain and simple.

[lordmonar]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement?

In the Air Force?  I don't ever remember anything like that while I was in (86-2008).

There was a program that said if you were on the weight managmement program you could not PCS, go TDY to schools, go to PME, or promote....but we were never ever restricted to just BDUs.

[SoCalMarine]

The Royal Australian Navy has an interesting mostly-grey camouflage...maybe the "grey only" zealots in CAP would like it...

What the heck is the white strip on their arms?

Anyway, I never saw the point in a branch wearing a camouflage color that wouldn't camouflage them anywhere they'd be doing combat.

[SoCalMarine]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement?

In the Air Force?  I don't ever remember anything like that while I was in (86-2008).

There was a program that said if you were on the weight managmement program you could not PCS, go TDY to schools, go to PME, or promote....but we were never ever restricted to just BDUs.

No no, he was meaning CAP senior members during the transition from fatigues to BDUs.

[bassque]

This is indeed an interesting conversation.  One thing that I have noticed, even when I was a Cadet is that folks have differing opinions based on what capacity they came into Civil Air Patrol.  I know these programs interspace and I'm probably over simplifying but here are my observations.   Folks like myself and SoCalMarine see it from the Cadet perspective.  Where others see it from the aerospace and ES point of view.  I know that the way I feel about which uniform we should wear varies widely with someone who joined as a senior member in their 30s perhaps who is focused more on ES activities.  Both point of views are correct IMO.  I think that National has actually done a really good job trying to keep all of us relatively happy. 

Someone mentioned cadets and senior members "playing Army" where I feel this is pretty offensive to the Cadet programs.  We don't wear the uniform to be like the Military, we wear it because it represents what we are proud of.  Thus a lot of us spend quite a bit of time perfecting the way we look in the uniform.  Personal opinion comes into play here but I believe we look better as a whole in the BDU uniform.  Could I make my Blue BDU shine up as well as my Green?  Probably.  I also agree with another individual who contends that because the AF does not wear the uniform, we need to relax the physical issues with wearing the BDUs.  But this being said,  that is because I focus a lot on my time as a cadet and the current cadet corps.  It doesn't necessarily take into consideration the ES activities that I've been on.  My ES BDUs looked sharp but were certainly more for boonie stomping in the woods looking for an ELT.  I think the orange vests are sufficient safety on ES missions.  I would be in favor of a different cover however.  (Orange? Blue?)

Now with all of that said,  I can understand why someone else would feel differently about what the uniform means to the organization.  I can understand that folks more involved with ES would look at it from a practical and safety standpoint.  From the branding perspective,  I agree that options = confusion on the part of the American public.  That's why I'm in favor of the green BDU with the physical restrictions relaxed.  Also,  I think it's our jobs to educate the public as well.  C/Airmens on up should be able to articulate who we are and what we do IMO.  It's part of their learning in Phase 1.  I also feel, along with SoCalMarine, that when the uniform is in poor display, it tarnishes the brand.  Not the Militaries, ours.

I just went and bought more Starch....   My 2 cents!

Happy Fathers day everyone!

[billford1]

There was the period when people who did not meet weight and grooming standards wore the BDU. Then there was the change to the requirement for BBDUs for those who don't. Does anybody know if there was a publication from the AF about what drove this requirement?

In the Air Force?  I don't ever remember anything like that while I was in (86-2008).

There was a program that said if you were on the weight managmement program you could not PCS, go TDY to schools, go to PME, or promote....but we were never ever restricted to just BDUs.

No no, he was meaning CAP senior members during the transition from fatigues to BDUs.

Thank You. When I joined in WA State in 2002 the BDU was I think still allowed for those with a goatee, but without rank insignia. In 2003 in another wing, I was invited to attend an encampment where they needed TAC Officers. I was concerned about the regs and was told that I was ok with the BDU. At the encampment I was approached by several leaders including the MER Commander (really great guy) who asked me to shave it off. I politely refused and suggested that I should leave. The Encampment Commander made light of the fact that the reg was not in the latest publication of 39-1 at that time. They were nice about it and asked me to stay.  I went out and bought a BBDU not long after that event. I'm just curious about what may have been published about the AF decision that drove the reg change requiring the BBDU.

[lordmonar]

Well....that is one of the problems IMHO.

CAP-USAF has never come out with a message to the masses about what they feel about our uniforms.

Even when the CSU came out.....we only found out about USAF's feelings as part of the explaination when NHQ changed some of the rules (i.e. taking off the U.S. and putting on the C.A.P. cutouts).

Even now.....when the NEC axed the CSU all together....it was justified with "The USAF doen't like it" but no one at the ground level has ever seen any sort of opinion memo from CAP-USAF.

Personally I would love to have CAP-USAF make a public stand on what their wants and desires for our uniforms were.  It would save a lot of the belly aching we do here on CAPTALK,

[RiverAux]

It is quite likely that there are CAP-USAF comments on various CAP uniform regulation proposals buried in the minutes of the board meetings.

[SoCalMarine]

I agree with both Lordmonar and RiverAux. I think its a combination of both. CAP-USAF may have made comments on particular proposals but I've never seen a comprehensive statement.

There's a lack of transparency on the part of the USAF. Look at the ALCOASTS from the USCG. They are very open as to what was proposed and the results. If you want the minutes you can ask for them through the chain of leadership in the CGAUX.

Its hard for CAP members to propose stuff up the chain when we don't know why certain ideas didn't work. Basically we're shooting in the dark. Be nice if someone at the USAF was actually reading this forum!

[PHall]

Be nice if someone at the USAF was actually reading this forum!

What makes you think there isn't?  National Headquarters reads this stuff too.

[SoCalMarine]

Be nice if someone at the USAF was actually reading this forum!

What makes you think there isn't?  National Headquarters reads this stuff too.

Oh I didn't say I didn't think so. It was more of a hint, or could be viewed as a sarcastic response. I am 100% sure they know the complaints of the membership but they choose not to do anything.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well....that is one of the problems IMHO.

CAP-USAF has never come out with a message to the masses about what they feel about our uniforms.

Even when the CSU came out.....we only found out about USAF's feelings as part of the explaination when NHQ changed some of the rules (i.e. taking off the U.S. and putting on the C.A.P. cutouts).

Even now.....when the NEC axed the CSU all together....it was justified with "The USAF doen't like it" but no one at the ground level has ever seen any sort of opinion memo from CAP-USAF.

Personally I would love to have CAP-USAF make a public stand on what their wants and desires for our uniforms were.  It would save a lot of the belly aching we do here on CAPTALK,

Hear, hear.

I still haven't heard any concrete reason for axing the CSU other than perceived perception, not quantified, by the USAF.

My own opinion, right or wrong, is that it had to do with the previous National CC and NHQ is trying to sweep everything he did under the carpet.

[Ned]

I still haven't heard any concrete reason for axing the CSU other than perceived perception, not quantified, by the USAF.

I'm sorry the NEC members didn't brief you on the reasons for their votes.

Part of the problem is that anytime a deliberative body votes to make a decision, there can be as many "reasons" as there are persons voting.

I was in the room when the NEC voted, and based on the debate and the public and privated discussions I was part of, it was clear to me that there were multiple reasons for the CSU's demise.

Some NEC members would have voted to change anything that Gen Pineda had ever approved.  Some were reacting to USAF concerns.  Some voted to reduce the number of uniforms (IOW, would have voted to eliminate the Aviator Shirt combo if that motion had been before the NEC.)  Some had other reasons not expressed to me.  And of course, some may well have voted for a combination of the above reasons.

Bottom line is that they made a decision.

The National Uniform Committee is charged with taking a fresh look at the corporate uniforms and will be proving a report to the NB in August.

[SarDragon]

Thank you, Ned.

[lordmonar]

Thanks Ned.

And for the record... I was not belly acheing that the NEC did not breif us on why they made their decisions. 

I just look at all the uniform threads we have here.....and a lot of the pros and cons about one uniform over the other, or changes we would like to see.....all revolved around "what the USAF wants".

I agree with this....I think the USAF should have a lot of say in the uniform of their auxillary......but it is hard to formulate workable ideas when you don't know what the major player player wants.

[Ned]

I think the USAF should have a lot of say in the uniform of their auxillary......but it is hard to formulate workable ideas when you don't know what the major player player wants.

It is a little fuzzy, to be sure.  As near as I can tell, there is no one single USAF officer/office charged with making specific decisions on CAP uniform proposals.  Sure, ultimately it is someone speaking on behalf of the CSAF, but it feels like they have a different staff routing each time.

IOW, there is no one USAF O5 that we can go to and say "Well, Colonel, if we did x or y, would you guys buy off on this?"

All we can do is submit specific requests through channels starting at CAP-USAF and await the results of their staff process.  Everyone is acting in good faith, but bureaucracy is difficult to negotiate with.

Ned Lee

[lordmonar]

Tell me about it. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The National Uniform Committee is charged with taking a fresh look at the corporate uniforms and will be proving a report to the NB in August.

Ned - first of all, sir, none of what I said was intended as a swipe at you, or at anyone really.  But the way this was done really smacks, to me, of the "mushroom management syndrome."

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the "fresh look at the corporate uniforms," as per General Courter's PowerPoint, is not likely to result in anything but trying to standardise the grey pants.  It will still be the colourless grey/white with Realtor (no offence to Realtors) jacket - completely un-aviation looking especially given the many, many much more attractive civilian uniform options available.

On BDU's, I couldn't tell you when I last saw a troop wearing them.  I see quite a few National Guard locally, and they're all in ABU's; have been for some time.

SDFs may still be doing the BDU route, but that's rapidly falling by the wayside:


Georgia


Alaska

But, yes, some still are wearing woodland BDU's...in this case with full-colour collar brass:


Lieutenant Colonel James Henderson, Alabama SDF

But hold on half a mo....


Major-General Ronald Noland, CC, Alabama SDF

That is, of course, an Air Force uniform, with no modifications I can see other than the red nameplate (Radioman ought to be digging that! ) and maybe "AL" collar brass.  Hard rank and all, and five'll get you ten the General is wearing blue shoulder marks.

Why isn't the AF raising a ruckus about that?  I've heard it said they can't control uniforms used by SDF's, which I find a bit of a crock - they can tell them "don't wear our uniform!" - but there's no way you couldn't confuse the General with anything but an AF officer (which he is not, any more than we are, he is a State Defence Force officer), "low-light-at-a-distance" be hanged.

Of course, none of this is meant to disparage any of these troops' status or accomplishments.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(IOW, would have voted to eliminate the Aviator Shirt combo if that motion had been before the NEC.)

Just curious, sir...why wasn't that option on the table?

[RiverAux]

There is a National Guard regulation that covers wear of US military style uniforms with state-specific changes by SDFs.  It is horribly out of date, but there is a mechanism there. 

[Eclipse]

Why isn't the AF raising a ruckus about that?  I've heard it said they can't control uniforms used by SDF's, which I find a bit of a crock - they can tell them "don't wear our uniform!" - but there's no way you couldn't confuse the General with anything but an AF officer (which he is not, any more than we are, he is a State Defence Force officer), "low-light-at-a-distance" be hanged.

Under what authority?

They don't have carte blanch ownership of every color and jacket style in a military cut.
There's no way to tell from the photos, but I would say the only way they would have a leg to stand on
would be if it has the Hap Arnold buttons on it, which would be silly, since they are uber-simple to swap out.

The answer is easy, the USAF has direct and total control of CAP, so it is a memo and a phone call to
enforce their directives - not as simple for other organizations outside their sphere.

Now, after looking at some of their photos, it is a little sad that people who assert as much "military experience"
as they indicate in their bios are so challenged with making their uniforms look 1/2-way decent.

[Ned]

Just curious, sir...why wasn't that option on the table?

I don't think I can give you a answer that you are going to find satisfactory.

First, I am not on the NEC and can't speak for them.  I don't get a vote, nor can I introduce or veto motions.  I'm just a observer.

Second, the answer could be as simple as "it wasn't on the table because nobody made the motion."  I know that is superficial, and just begs the question of "why didn't any of the NEC makes such a motion?"

And I don't have any sort of answer for that, superficial or not.  It's just hard to say why somebody did not make a given motion.

And as to your statements about the National Uniform Committee, you may well be right that nothing very dramatic is likely to come out of a committee composed almost entirely of CAP colonels.  Typically very few rabble-rousers and anarchists are found in such a group.

But remember, that the NUC will present it's recommendations to the NB in just a couple of months.  At that point the NB will be free to accept, reject, or ignore the recommendations.  And we will have a new national commander who will almost certainly want to influence the ongoing uniform process.

We'll just have to see.

[lordmonar]

Why isn't the AF raising a ruckus about that?  I've heard it said they can't control uniforms used by SDF's, which I find a bit of a crock - they can tell them "don't wear our uniform!" - but there's no way you couldn't confuse the General with anything but an AF officer (which he is not, any more than we are, he is a State Defence Force officer), "low-light-at-a-distance" be hanged.

Under what authority?

They don't have carte blanch ownership of every color and jacket style in a military cut.
There's no way to tell from the photos, but I would say the only way they would have a leg to stand on
would be if it has the Hap Arnold buttons on it, which would be silly, since they are uber-simple to swap out.

The answer is easy, the USAF has direct and total control of CAP, so it is a memo and a phone call to
enforce their directives - not as simple for other organizations outside their sphere.

Now, after looking at some of their photos, it is a little sad that people who assert as much "military experience"
as they indicate in their bios are so challenged with making their uniforms look 1/2-way decent.

Title 10 Just like us.

§ 771. Unauthorized wearing prohibited.  Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

§ 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized
(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.
(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.
(c) A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.
(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.
(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.
(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.
(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.
(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.
(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.
(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:
(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.
(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department.

§ 773. When distinctive insignia required
(a) A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be:
(1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of—
(A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction; or
(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics.
(2) The uniform prescribed by a military society composed of persons discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps to be worn by a member of that society when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President.
(b) A uniform prescribed under subsection (a) may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.
(c) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe, any person who is permitted to attend a course of instruction prescribed for members of a reserve officers' training corps, and who is not a member of that corps, may, while attending that course of instruction, wear the uniform of that corps.

§ 776. Applicability of chapter
This chapter applies in—
(1) the United States;
(2) the territories, commonwealths, and possessions of the United States; and
(3) all other places under the jurisdiction of the United States.

[Eclipse]

So every blue jacket with or without epaulets is verboten?

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the USAF service coat isn't really any different than a standard blazer, it's not
even really a "military cut", and in NCO versions is indistinguishable from a civilian jacket.

I agree they might try to assert title 10 as a justification for a C&D, but whether it would hold would be a matter for the courts.

[lordmonar]

So every blue jacket with or without epaulets is verboten?

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the USAF service coat isn't really any different than a standard blazer, it's not
even really a "military cut", and in NCO versions is indistinguishable from a civilian jacket.

I agree they might try to assert title 10 as a justification for a C&D, but whether it would hold would be a matter for the courts.

You asked for a source...and I gave you one.

I don't think anyone activly goes after anyone for violating this law.....not unless the perpetrators cross the line an actually try to sell themselves as real AD military personnel.....otherwise they would put surpluss stores out of buisness.

And for the record I never said the AF service caot was a standard blazer.

[RiverAux]

Again, SDFs are authorized to wear uniforms of the military services (and they are authorized by federal law just like CAP is).  I will say that the federal government has not always used its authority to deal with SDFs since it is probably at the absolute bottom of their priority list.  The DoD recently undertook a review of various issues surrounding SDFs which hasn't yet been completed (the last I heard).  I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't mention uniforms in particular since they are included in the very outdated regulations relating to SDFs, though there are much bigger fish to fry in that particular reg.l

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Under what authority?

They don't have carte blanch ownership of every color and jacket style in a military cut.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get across with the potential of making the non-USAF uniforms more "aviation!"

My argument is that the AF doesn't have carte blanche of every shade of blue, or of every blue clothing item made...only THEIRS.

But it seems that whenever I, or anyone else, have mentioned anything deviating from grey and white, especially containing blue, it gets shot down quicker than Pappy Boyington taking out a Zero.

As Ned has informed us, what the USAF wants in our CAP uniforms is "fuzzy" and not clearly stated, just what they don't want when CAP members wear theirs.

So why the resistance to anything but grey/white?

[RiverAux]

My argument is that the AF doesn't have carte blanche of every shade of blue, or of every blue clothing item made...only THEIRS.

You are right that they don't have control over every shade of blue, but they have exactly as much control over what uniforms that CAP wears as they want to exert.  They have generally let us go our own way with corporate uniforms, but that is their choice.

All they would have to do is to say:  "Only X and Y uniforms will be worn on AFAMs.  You can wear what you want any other time, but when you're on our dime you're going to wear exactly what we say you'll wear."  Sure, this would leave open the possibility of other uniforms being worn on non-AF time, but from a practical point of view very few people are going to buy uniforms that they can only wear at CAP meetings or during certain activities.  They'll buy what can be worn in the widest variety of situations. 

And, I imagine that there are other legal ways that they could exert such influence if they wanted to. 

[RADIOMAN015]

My argument is that the AF doesn't have carte blanche of every shade of blue, or of every blue clothing item made...only THEIRS.

You are right that they don't have control over every shade of blue, but they have exactly as much control over what uniforms that CAP wears as they want to exert.  They have generally let us go our own way with corporate uniforms, but that is their choice.

All they would have to do is to say:  "Only X and Y uniforms will be worn on AFAMs.  You can wear what you want any other time, but when you're on our dime you're going to wear exactly what we say you'll wear."  Sure, this would leave open the possibility of other uniforms being worn on non-AF time, but from a practical point of view very few people are going to buy uniforms that they can only wear at CAP meetings or during certain activities.  They'll buy what can be worn in the widest variety of situations. 

And, I imagine that there are other legal ways that they could exert such influence if they wanted to.

I've never heard of the USAF during any evaluation or mission specifying which uniform a CAP member will.  Mission base and even flying can be done in golf shirts with grey pants (In fact my understanding is golf shirt/grey pants are now the norm at one Wing's mission base(s) :clap:).  Surely if someone is going to go into the woods they should have a long sleeve type uniform and boots).  The AF is interested that CAP perform the assigned mission(s) successfully, whether we are even wearing pink jump suits is not relevant
RM

[RiverAux]

I didn't say that they had tried to exert such influence, just that they could. 

[Eclipse]

I didn't say that they had tried to exert such influence, just that they could.

Not until they start issuing uniforms...

[RiverAux]

I didn't say that they had tried to exert such influence, just that they could.

Not until they start issuing uniforms...

Huh?  By this logic the AF can't control members wear of AF-style uniforms since they don't issue them to us. 

The AF has all the leverage, both formal and informal, that they need to make CAP wear whatever they want.  They just have chosen to (mostly) let CAP do what it wants with corporate uniforms.  But, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way.