NEC approves GT uniform requirement

[mynetdude]

Why?!?! Are they following CAWG's notion that they require a GT uniform when doing GT?

[cap235629]

what are you talking about?

[mynetdude]

what are you talking about?

The letter is recieved from PCR from when PCRCC went to NEC Meeting on May 1st.  On the 1st page or two it indicates GT uniform will be required.

[Major Lord]

Interesting letter. What is the Air War "Collage"? Pictures pasted to cardboard? What is a "Sliver" Star? a sliced off portion of a whole star? Only in Alabama............

Major Lord

[heliodoc]

If this is the case

Cost of doing business if you want to play with the big boys of emergency services.

Some may say I am a nay sayer...but it's the folks CAP is going to support (if CAP gets the call)

It is CA OEM shot to call.  They have their rules......NOW CAP will just have to get in line with the RULES.

This may be the first State that requires a high viz color...CAP ought to be thinking this route ..Orange, Lime Yellow, or other high viz colors that are OSHA approved...Maybe some other vendor other than Vanguard could start gearing up for real SAR uniform changes

CAP start digging deeper into the pockets...changes are acomin' in the NIMS and ICS world and this may be the start of a whole new trend that CAP may have to face up to...

CAP has forced a number of changes upon the membership....NOW it is outside agancies that may REQUIRE CAP to dress for THEIR missions.

A good start...What is CAP doing in BDU's anyway other than trying to look like the AF and get free uniforms??  CAP may have to contract to vendor in the future and make it cost effective to start either issuing or making high viz colors cheap enough to buy.  If the membership is buying uniforms for the dog and pony shows.... it quite possibly afford a 32.00+ high viz shirt to be on somebody's mission assignment board!!

[mynetdude]

You guys don't get it do you?

WE ALREADY HAVE high viz vests isn't THAT enough? By requiring GT to wear high viz uniforms just spins the same wheels we already have going for high viz requirements for UDF, GT, FLM etc WHY cook up another uniform when there is already a solution to it?

Fine if a state EOC/EMA SAR committee requires CAP to wear high vis (which we already DO) is a vest not visible enough? One can easily go buy high vis OHSA compliant tshirts, sweatshirts, vests, jackets and pants!

[heliodoc]

I may not get it

But the folks at CA OEM and the LE types may  not want the extra liability of having the less than 18 yr old crowd running around in BDU's.

Does that sound vaguely familiar?  Liability, CAP, and the newly minted and thrusting CAP safety program?

It is the States call and if CA OEM and LE folks do not want others running around in BDU's looking like a SWAT or tactical entry team...well then

Yep..... CAP has the vests...  But CA may want a little more than vests over the BDU's...they may want high viz CLOTHING as a standard.

Stand by to stand by................

[a2capt]

Cadet programs and Aerospace Education are looking more .. and more .. interesting.  every single day.

At least until rocket engines require a license and Haz-Mat handling procedures and this can be gotten only in a class held after two consecutive months of a blue moon. 

[Hawk200]

WE ALREADY HAVE high viz vests isn't THAT enough? By requiring GT to wear high viz uniforms just spins the same wheels we already have going for high viz requirements for UDF, GT, FLM etc WHY cook up another uniform when there is already a solution to it?

Fine if a state EOC/EMA SAR committee requires CAP to wear high vis (which we already DO) is a vest not visible enough?

Different reasons for it. Some wings want to work with local teams, and will go to any lengths to do so. Inlcuding sacrificing our own identity.

I think there's probably a pretty fine line between working with locals, and selling out to them. A ground team uniform specified by an outside organization is an example.

If CAP had moved forward instead of lagging on some things, we might have had far more organizations wanting to be like us, instead of them wanting us to be like them.

Overall, if you can't see a Hi Viz vest, it's probably not very likely that a whole shirt is really going to make all that much difference.

[mynetdude]

WE ALREADY HAVE high viz vests isn't THAT enough? By requiring GT to wear high viz uniforms just spins the same wheels we already have going for high viz requirements for UDF, GT, FLM etc WHY cook up another uniform when there is already a solution to it?

Fine if a state EOC/EMA SAR committee requires CAP to wear high vis (which we already DO) is a vest not visible enough?

Different reasons for it. Some wings want to work with local teams, and will go to any lengths to do so. Inlcuding sacrificing our own identity.

I think there's probably a pretty fine line between working with locals, and selling out to them. A ground team uniform specified by an outside organization is an example.

If CAP had moved forward instead of lagging on some things, we might have had far more organizations wanting to be like us, instead of them wanting us to be like them.

Overall, if you can't see a Hi Viz vest, it's probably not very likely that a whole shirt is really going to make all that much difference.

Well I got a solution for that problem, if they wanna go play with the locals get out and go play with them but LEAVE our identities alone

Yes even safety is now being revamped too, do the folks at NHQ really LOVE to change things every month?

[mynetdude]

I may not get it

But the folks at CA OEM and the LE types may  not want the extra liability of having the less than 18 yr old crowd running around in BDU's.

Does that sound vaguely familiar?  Liability, CAP, and the newly minted and thrusting CAP safety program?

It is the States call and if CA OEM and LE folks do not want others running around in BDU's looking like a SWAT or tactical entry team...well then

Yep..... CAP has the vests...  But CA may want a little more than vests over the BDU's...they may want high viz CLOTHING as a standard.

Stand by to stand by................

You bring up a valid point which still keeps reappearing everywhere else in everything else we do but this goes back to "force protection".  I know we need the USAF and we WANT their support but do we NEED their uniform? Regulations allow us to use any approved uniform appropriate for the work we are doing on AFAMs which is to include the blue BDU/field uniform/flight jackets, etc.  I guess its not a solve all problem, blue=cop!

I can see us wearing a full hi-viz suit with the blue nametapes (cuz I don't think they will be able to see the nametapes??

[SarDragon]

This uniform is not a new thing within CAWG. The recent action is more of a revival.

I saw the old iteration, and it didn't look bad at all. Wearers were easily identifiable as CAP members. The shirts are more comfortable that BDU shirts, although they lack some of the more utilitarian features (pockets, etc).

[Hawk200]

Well I got a solution for that problem, if they wanna go play with the locals get out and go play with them but LEAVE our identities alone

I would agree. If some wings had stuck to their guns, instead of cowing, we wouldn't have outside agencies setting policy for us.

Of course, on another note, it could be a simple case of a wing wanting to be, or insisting on being, different. The attitude is not unusual. Two wings I have been in previously had their own uniforms when I was there (California being one of them) for Ground SAR ops, and those two uniforms only had an orange shirt in common.

I think there is an easy way around it, but it would require National to take a step, and then mandating that all the wings toe the line. If a Hi Vis uniform item is good in a few states, then it should be of use to other ones. And a standardized (and therefore uniform) item would keep everyone on the same page.

...do the folks at NHQ really LOVE to change things every month?

I'm assuming that's rhetorical? 

This uniform is not a new thing within CAWG. The recent action is more of a revival.

I saw the old iteration, and it didn't look bad at all. Wearers were easily identifiable as CAP members. The shirts are more comfortable that BDU shirts, although they lack some of the more utilitarian features (pockets, etc).

I remember that one from my time there. Everyone called it the "Cal Trans" uniform.

[iamchj]

On the copy of the "Notes from the May 1 NEC meeting and other items" from the Pacific Region sent to all Oregon Wing members by the Oregon Wing Commander, the last item within the notes reads, "Safety Apparel: Approved. This will required all GT members to wear safety color uniform. You need to read the requirement. It is very long. It will be posted soon."

Does anyone know where this information will be posted?
Does anyone know what this "safety color uniform" looks like?

The California Wing had a Ground Team uniform approved that includes the wearing of a blaze orange BDU shirt and blue BDU trousers a number of years ago. Does anyone know if the new Region GT "safety color uniform" is the same as the CA Wing Ground Team uniform, or is it different?

[mynetdude]

Well I got a solution for that problem, if they wanna go play with the locals get out and go play with them but LEAVE our identities alone

I would agree. If some wings had stuck to their guns, instead of cowing, we wouldn't have outside agencies setting policy for us.

Of course, on another note, it could be a simple case of a wing wanting to be, or insisting on being, different. The attitude is not unusual. Two wings I have been in previously had their own uniforms when I was there (California being one of them) for Ground SAR ops, and those two uniforms only had an orange shirt in common.

I think there is an easy way around it, but it would require National to take a step, and then mandating that all the wings toe the line. If a Hi Vis uniform item is good in a few states, then it should be of use to other ones. And a standardized (and therefore uniform) item would keep everyone on the same page.

...do the folks at NHQ really LOVE to change things every month?

I'm assuming that's rhetorical? 

This uniform is not a new thing within CAWG. The recent action is more of a revival.

I saw the old iteration, and it didn't look bad at all. Wearers were easily identifiable as CAP members. The shirts are more comfortable that BDU shirts, although they lack some of the more utilitarian features (pockets, etc).

I remember that one from my time there. Everyone called it the "Cal Trans" uniform.

Hawk, despite my dry humor and smart aleckyness yes its rhetorical

I don't mind the blue really, it stands out better IMHO, and yeah it does look like the cal trans uniform. A CHP DOT unit came out to assist my folks on US101 when our motorhome ran out of gas (my mom is so goofy) he was wearing the blue uniform it hadn't clicked at the time

[a2capt]

Probably different. After all, there' can't be uniformity among uniforms ... 

..or threads. Of both natures. There's another thread on this.

[Hawk200]

I don't mind the blue really, it stands out better IMHO, and yeah it does look like the cal trans uniform. A CHP DOT unit came out to assist my folks on US101 when our motorhome ran out of gas (my mom is so goofy) he was wearing the blue uniform it hadn't clicked at the time

The term was first mentioned to me by one of the CAWG GT guys during the quake relief in '94. I didn't really get it at the time, but noted the CA DOT guys wearing it the following week and laughed when it registered . The guy had made the statement in a tongue in cheek manner, but it was lost on me until later.

[mynetdude]

Probably different. After all, there' can't be uniformity among uniforms ... 

..or threads. Of both natures. There's another thread on this.

Yeah stop stealing my thunder!!!

FWIW this is a region polciy not a NHQ policy? Seems to be its a national policy not a region policy although the letter was distributed via region.

[Custer]

Interesting letter. What is the Air War "Collage"? Pictures pasted to cardboard? What is a "Sliver" Star? a sliced off portion of a whole star? Only in Alabama............

Major Lord

"This will required all GT members to wear safety color uniform."

Someone ran spell check on autopilot I think.

Did they give everyone with orange flight suits long enough to get rid of them before they phase them back in?  Assuming thats what "safety Color" is of course...

[mynetdude]

Interesting letter. What is the Air War "Collage"? Pictures pasted to cardboard? What is a "Sliver" Star? a sliced off portion of a whole star? Only in Alabama............

Major Lord

"This will required all GT members to wear safety color uniform."

Someone ran spell check on autopilot I think.

Did they give everyone with orange flight suits long enough to get rid of them before they phase them back in?  Assuming thats what "safety Color" is of course...

jeeze the spelling cops... give it a rest and I do my best to correct all of my spellings thank you.

Make everything orange! (actually someone mentioned getting DOC orange prison suits ) At least we won't be hard to find!

[MIKE]

Merged.

[iamchj]

On the copy of the "Notes from the May 1 NEC meeting and other items" from the Pacific Region sent to all Oregon Wing members by the Oregon Wing Commander, the last item within the notes reads, "Safety Apparel: Approved. This will required all GT members to wear safety color uniform. You need to read the requirement. It is very long. It will be posted soon."

Does anyone know where this information will be posted?
Does anyone know what this "safety color uniform" looks like?

The California Wing had a Ground Team uniform approved that includes the wearing of a blaze orange BDU shirt and blue BDU trousers a number of years ago. Does anyone know if the new Region GT "safety color uniform" is the same as the CA Wing Ground Team uniform, or is it different?

[SarDragon]

NOT blaze orange!

CAWG Ground Team Uniform Definition
(1) Description:
(a) Long or short sleeve orange (not fluorescent), two or four pocket shirt without epaulets.

[a2capt]

CalTrans Orange. .... ;-)

You know what really gets me? We, as a county accomplished so much until now, and most of it was not with all this nanny-ism legislative oversight from every direction.

I wonder if we'll ever accomplish the same amount again.

We got to the moon, with a spacecraft we designed. In 10 years. In 10 years, now, we've cancelled several programs, and spent most of that time on one of them, only to have it cancelled, too.

Maybe NASA needs orange hats to encourage safe thinking.

[iamchj]

Thanks, Maj Bowles.

[MIKE]

Merged again.  Please take a minute to look for the active topic on the subject before posting. Duplicate topics may have been merged or deleted.

[JC004]

Did they think Item 11 through?  (ID cards)  Why not allow minor cadets to get photo IDs if they want them?  If they're under (fill in the blank here for your respective state) years old, they may not be able to get a photo ID card issued by the state and if somewhere like an airport security wants it...they're screwed.  We've had to have cadets sit out (that is, sit inside) at the airport and such for not having photo ID. 

[necigrad]

As someone that has spent a lot of time playing in traffic with a police department, I can say with experience that a VEST is a very good idea.  I can also say that anything more is a waste.  My logic for this is vehicle lighting.  I have seen both slightly lit vehicles (4 ways and a 2 strobe light bar) as well as well lit (police (and other) cars with full halogen, strobe, or LED light bars, LED lights to the sides, LEDs or strobes in the rear window, and corner strobes) get hit.  Make yourself visible, and you REDUCE the chance of being hit and increase the chance of being seen.  Anything other then a vest is just "feel good" regulation.  ANSI Class III vest, call it good.  Rules like this "high vis" uniform are reasons why I'd like to see a certain west coast State sink.

Did they think Item 11 through?  (ID cards)  Why not allow minor cadets to get photo IDs if they want them?  If they're under (fill in the blank here for your respective state) years old, they may not be able to get a photo ID card issued by the state and if somewhere like an airport security wants it...they're screwed.  We've had to have cadets sit out (that is, sit inside) at the airport and such for not having photo ID.

You don't actually NEED photo ID, even as an adult, at an airport, just Government ID.  That requirement is only for those under (I think) 18.

[mynetdude]

As someone that has spent a lot of time playing in traffic with a police department, I can say with experience that a VEST is a very good idea.  I can also say that anything more is a waste.  My logic for this is vehicle lighting.  I have seen both slightly lit vehicles (4 ways and a 2 strobe light bar) as well as well lit (police (and other) cars with full halogen, strobe, or LED light bars, LED lights to the sides, LEDs or strobes in the rear window, and corner strobes) get hit.  Make yourself visible, and you REDUCE the chance of being hit and increase the chance of being seen.  Anything other then a vest is just "feel good" regulation.  ANSI Class III vest, call it good.  Rules like this "high vis" uniform are reasons why I'd like to see a certain west coast State sink.

Did they think Item 11 through?  (ID cards)  Why not allow minor cadets to get photo IDs if they want them?  If they're under (fill in the blank here for your respective state) years old, they may not be able to get a photo ID card issued by the state and if somewhere like an airport security wants it...they're screwed.  We've had to have cadets sit out (that is, sit inside) at the airport and such for not having photo ID.

You don't actually NEED photo ID, even as an adult, at an airport, just Government ID.  That requirement is only for those under (I think) 18.

Yes but now they are requiring photo IDs for all SMs so after beginning 2012 it will be mandatory.  I can remember being able to get a government issued photo ID as soon as I was 14 and it only cost $13 from DMV you just had to show proof of who you are and where you live.

back in my teen days the airlines didn't require me to have photo ID heck this was way before 9/11 security didn't even look at photo IDs then you showed your picture from the yearbook (at the time it was an acceptable proof if you didn't have government ID)

Nowadays how are minors supposed to get through security checkpoint without a photo ID? I don't understand why they are prohibiting cadets from being able to get a photo ID is there some kind of threat they perceive?

[jimmydeanno]

Nowadays how are minors supposed to get through security checkpoint without a photo ID?

Passport for those under 16: http://www.travel.state.gov/passport/get/minors/minors_834.html

[cap235629]

a non driver ID here in Arkansas is $5.00

[PHall]

I would agree. If some wings had stuck to their guns, instead of cowing, we wouldn't have outside agencies setting policy for us.

Kinda hard to "stick to your guns" when you're going against an established state law.

[davedove]

I would agree. If some wings had stuck to their guns, instead of cowing, we wouldn't have outside agencies setting policy for us.

Kinda hard to "stick to your guns" when you're going against an established state law.

Not for a federal level agency, which we are (even though some people forget that).  Nobody tells the military, the FBI, or even FEMA what they have to wear.

[Eclipse]

I would agree. If some wings had stuck to their guns, instead of cowing, we wouldn't have outside agencies setting policy for us.

Kinda hard to "stick to your guns" when you're going against an established state law.

Not for a federal level agency, which we are (even though some people forget that).  Nobody tells the military, the FBI, or even FEMA what they have to wear.

I agree with the sentiment, but unfortunately we aren't a federalized agency in this regard.

The majority of our ES response is not via AFAMs, but via corporate agreements (MOU) at the state or lower level, so waving the Fed flag doesn't "fly".

If we only and always responded via FEMA, HLS, or DOD (via AFAM), it would potentially be a different story.

[JC004]

...
You don't actually NEED photo ID, even as an adult, at an airport, just Government ID.  That requirement is only for those under (I think) 18.

Not exactly the argument I want to have with airport security at night at the world's 10th busiest airport.

I wouldn't want to ask the cadets to go through the passport process either. 

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to have a photo ID optionally.

[PHall]

I would agree. If some wings had stuck to their guns, instead of cowing, we wouldn't have outside agencies setting policy for us.

Kinda hard to "stick to your guns" when you're going against an established state law.

Not for a federal level agency, which we are (even though some people forget that).  Nobody tells the military, the FBI, or even FEMA what they have to wear.

In California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all Search and Rescue activities in their county, we operate at the pleasure the Sheriff while in their county. CAP has been banned from operating in certain counties in the past and there was nothing the Air Force or AFRCC could do about it. Believe me, all legal avenues were explored.

CalEMA acts as a coordination/standardization agency and while they can not tell the counties what they can do, they can withhold state funding. So they pretty much get their way.

We're just doing what has been suggested that we do, i.e. "shut up and color between the lines".

Now, if you can point out a legal way to get around this requirement, then have at it.

[RiverAux]

The majority of our ES response is not via AFAMs, but via corporate agreements (MOU) at the state or lower level,

Oh, I don't know about that "fact" at all. 

[Eclipse]

The majority of our ES response is not via AFAMs, but via corporate agreements (MOU) at the state or lower level,

Oh, I don't know about that "fact" at all.

Perhaps I should have qualified that but I can certainly speak for my AOR.  This has been a point of contention with me for a long time - that we don't get AFAM's for DR response - everything I've been involved in with the exception of Katrina has been a "C", including at least one that qualified for a DR-V and several that supported 3- and 4- letter agencies.

Every wing is mandated to have an MOU with their state's ES agency (though some states refuse to sign them), and in most states anything short of Armageddon is handled by the state or lower.

[RiverAux]

There may be more small scale disasters done on C-missions but I don't think the total CAP committment (either manpower or flight hours) would actually add up to much when compared to the massive committments for the large scale disasters that end up on AFAMS.  We probably do 3-4 small DR missions on the state dime every year, but they almost never amount to more than a sortie or two each.  But, when a "real" disaster hits, it almost always turns into an AFAM and many, many more CAP resources are devoted to it. 

But, we digress (it would be interesting to see some figures on breakdown of flying hours on corporate vs AFAM es missions). 

[lordmonar]

CalEMA acts as a coordination/standardization agency and while they can not tell the counties what they can do, they can withhold state funding. So they pretty much get their way.

We're just doing what has been suggested that we do, i.e. "shut up and color between the lines".

Now, if you can point out a legal way to get around this requirement, then have at it.

While I agree with you 100% that we need to comply with the regulations and laws of our customer.....

I have to ask.....is this really a legal requirment?

I ask that because a quick google search on Cali SAR agencies I found several that do not wear the orange shirt.

Also how do Federal agencies fit into CALI's suggested SAR clothing?   I was watching the NV Traingle show on the NatGEO chanel an all the National Parks guys were in their own uniforms and not the orange shirts suggested by CALI.

Like I said.....I support that CAP may need to do some (a lot of) fence mending in Cali....and adopting their SAR uniform may help in that.....but I also wonder if this "requirment" is being blown out of porpotion (at least here on CT).

With that said....I still go back to my origninal questions about inter operability.

Do the CAWG guys know that they can't wear their orange shirts over the borders and has anyone considered what requirments may be placed on non-CAWG support if they are ever called apon?

[PHall]

The part about the Sheriff of Each County is responsible for all Search and Rescue activities in their county is in the California State Constitution.

[JC004]

The part about the Sheriff of Each County is responsible for all Search and Rescue activities in their county is in the California State Constitution.

That seems excessive.

[heliodoc]

^^^
Excessive?

Pretty much in every State Constitution or County statute.......

[RiverAux]

The part about the Sheriff of Each County is responsible for all Search and Rescue activities in their county is in the California State Constitution.

That seems excessive.

I'd bet money that SAR isn't specifically mentioned in any state constitution, but most probably have some sort of generic language about the duties of sheriffs in regards to emergencies of various kinds that probably include SAR. 

[JC004]

^^^
Excessive?

Pretty much in every State Constitution or County statute.......

SAR responsibility specifically is in just about every state constitution?  I'm not an expert on state constitutions and most of the state constitutions where I come from date back to colonial times (with some new constitutions or amendments over time) and are pretty straightforward. 

County statute is different.  Or whatever you call it wherever.  I don't think counties can have statutes in Pennsylvania.  They're ordinances. 

If it's in a county ____ (whatever they're called in a particular place) or state statute, that's one thing, but in the framework of the state's government for SAR specifically...that seems excessive.  Unless he just means the underlying principle or something like that.  I don't know that I've ever looked at the CA Constitution, but have read those of the 13 original states (was studying the influences back and forth between the states' constitutions and US Constitution, as well as working on something to prove a law professor wrong cuz he insisted and I knew that I was right.)   

I'd bet money that SAR isn't specifically mentioned in any state constitution, but most probably have some sort of generic language about the duties of sheriffs in regards to emergencies of various kinds that probably include SAR.

Sure not our sheriffs.  They're pretty much powerless here.  I know that's much different elsewhere, though.  We don't do the cities, then everything else is county thing.  We have cities, townships and boroughs (and like two official towns).  There's this whole Home Rule thing...our laws are a little different than a lot of places.  If you're in PA and a sheriff (deputy) is behind you, no worries, he can't pull you over, but he can sell your house at tax sale or foreclosure.  He can also issue your gun permit and transport your to/from prison/court/community service.  Thaaaat's about it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Frankly, I am disgusted, but not surprised, that CA does not permit the wear of the uniform of the United States on their missions.  After all, Code Pink is still screaming in front of the Marine recruiting offices out there, and still supported by Pelosi and all those other CA politicians.

I am disgusted AND surprised that CAP surrendered the right to wear the US Air Force uniform without a fight.

This all seems to make the Reconquista a lot easier. 

[JayT]

Frankly, I am disgusted, but not surprised, that CA does not permit the wear of the uniform of the United States on their missions.  After all, Code Pink is still screaming in front of the Marine recruiting offices out there, and still supported by Pelosi and all those other CA politicians.

I am disgusted AND surprised that CAP surrendered the right to wear the US Air Force uniform without a fight.

This all seems to make the Reconquista a lot easier.

What does the 'uniform of the United States' have to do with a legitimate safety concerns by local shrieffs agenies? Are the deputies anti American? What does Code Pink and the Marine Corps have to do with Civil Air Patrol's mission?

Out here, volunteer firemen at car accidents have to wear a safety vest over their gear. There was some grumbling about it, but the rules were made and have to be followed.

[PHall]

Frankly, I am disgusted, but not surprised, that CA does not permit the wear of the uniform of the United States on their missions.  After all, Code Pink is still screaming in front of the Marine recruiting offices out there, and still supported by Pelosi and all those other CA politicians.

I am disgusted AND surprised that CAP surrendered the right to wear the US Air Force uniform without a fight.

This all seems to make the Reconquista a lot easier.

What does the 'uniform of the United States' have to do with a legitimate safety concerns by local shrieffs agenies? Are the deputies anti American? What does Code Pink and the Marine Corps have to do with Civil Air Patrol's mission?

Out here, volunteer firemen at car accidents have to wear a safety vest over their gear. There was some grumbling about it, but the rules were made and have to be followed.

It's just "California Bashing". Some folks, usually from the East Coast, take great pleasure in doing it whenever they can.
We usually ignore it and consider the source.

[Hawk200]

What does the 'uniform of the United States' have to do with a legitimate safety concerns by local shrieffs agenies? Are the deputies anti American? What does Code Pink and the Marine Corps have to do with Civil Air Patrol's mission?

Out here, volunteer firemen at car accidents have to wear a safety vest over their gear. There was some grumbling about it, but the rules were made and have to be followed.

What legitimate concern is there? Especially considering that volunteer fireman only need a vest, where CAP is wearing a complete uniform. I can accept the state requiring a vest; but mandating, or even strongly suggesting, a new uniform is crap.

On the other hand, the wing could want it for the sake of being different. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. They've had their own policies before on things that were strange.

[Hawk200]

It's just "California Bashing". Some folks, usually from the East Coast, take great pleasure in doing it whenever they can.
We usually ignore it and consider the source.

And others consider the source of a knee jerk defense, as well. Works both ways.

[PHall]

It's just "California Bashing". Some folks, usually from the East Coast, take great pleasure in doing it whenever they can.
We usually ignore it and consider the source.

And others consider the source of a knee jerk defense, as well. Works both ways.

Like I said, we usually just ignore it.

[RiverAux]

The way the document attached to the first post in this thread is written it seems like the new "safety" uniform will be for all of CAP rather than just the CA Wing item discussed extensively in another thread.  Has anyone gotten any credible specific clarifying information on this yet? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Call it California Bashing if you like, but CA is a very anti-military state.

the "Legitimate safety concerns" are nonsense.

CA people, at least from what I can see and from what I did see when I was stationed out there in the 60's, just don't like military folk.

At least not American military folk.

[JayT]

So the Shrieffs, emergency management coordinators, and other government officals who required this are anti military?

Call it California Bashing if you like, but CA is a very anti-military state.

the "Legitimate safety concerns" are nonsense.

CA people, at least from what I can see and from what I did see when I was stationed out there in the 60's, just don't like military folk.

At least not American military folk.

[JohnKachenmeister]

It would so appear.

[bosshawk]

Kach: let me assure you that the CA attitude of the 60s has very little to do with the CA attitude of today, regarding things military.  The vast majority of the military bases in CA have long been closed and turned over to the civilians.

The uniform in question, one lousy orange shirt, has been used by CAP GT folks working in multi-agency ops for as long as I can remember.  We have a Wing CC who demands orders to cover everything: I suspect that someone on the wing staff was told to go to CALEMA and get the orange shirt thing straightened out.  The result was the Region CC going to the NEC(of which he is a member) and getting it made a mandatory uniform item.  I seem to recall that there is a CAWG Supplement to 39-1 which specifies this orange shirt.  Like most things, it is also very confusing about other uniform combinations to be used by GT folks. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, if you say so.  I got spit at coming out of the gate at Travis AFB in April, 1970, and I see Code Pink is still spitting on Marines out there.

In Florida we wear the USAF uniform with CAP insignia, and we do so proudly.  For hi-viz, we put on orange vests.  There is no "Safety" issue.  I see this as simply the 60's radicals grown up and pretending they know how to run a state, and the 60's radicals do not like the military.

[billford1]

If there is a standard that should be considered for a Ground Team Uniform my opinion is that everyone should be in the same uniform.

[JayT]

OK, if you say so.  I got spit at coming out of the gate at Travis AFB in April, 1970, and I see Code Pink is still spitting on Marines out there.

In Florida we wear the USAF uniform with CAP insignia, and we do so proudly.  For hi-viz, we put on orange vests.  There is no "Safety" issue.  I see this as simply the 60's radicals grown up and pretending they know how to run a state, and the 60's radicals do not like the military.

Do you have any proof of that at all?

[SarDragon]

Call it California Bashing if you like, but CA is a very anti-military state.

the "Legitimate safety concerns" are nonsense.

CA people, at least from what I can see and from what I did see when I was stationed out there in the 60's, just don't like military folk.

At least not American military folk.

Well, as a recent resident of CA, I have to strongly disagree. There might be folks in the SF Bay area with that kind of attitude, but it's essentially non-existent down in my area - San Diego. We have the largest Naval presence on the west coast, and perhaps largest military presence. There are at least ten military installations of varying size in SD County, and an AD/Retired population numbering in the tens of thousands.

One of the most popular tourist attractions in the city is the USS Midway Aircraft Carrier Museum. I can get a military discount at many stores and shops in the area.If all the military dollars and people disappeared from SD County, it would collapse.

So don't paint the whole state with that anti-military brush. It's just not true.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I will grant you that San Diego County is less liberal than the rest of the state.  I spent a year there between Corps School (now closed) and Camp Pendleton (still open, I think).  But the rest of the state is pretty anti-military.  I mean... CALENEMA or whatever that is is so offended by the military uniform that they ban wearing it on missions.  I'll bet all them guys still have ponytails.  San Francisco City Council banned ROTC from the schools.

[JayT]

Ah, mature the extreme. CALENEMA. Funny what you did there. You took the initialism for California Emergency Management Agency, added an EN to make it look like "enema."

Do you have any photos of California emergency officals or shrieffs with a pony tail? (Because clearly someone with a pony tail is a pinko, second amendment stomping anti war protestor....non of which has anything to do with emergency management I believe.)

Again, do you have any proof whatsoever that this is an affront to the military, and not a safety concern and extension of rules that already apply to other volunteer SAR groups?

Also, the ban on Junior ROTC in SF schools was reversed.

I will grant you that San Diego County is less liberal than the rest of the state.  I spent a year there between Corps School (now closed) and Camp Pendleton (still open, I think).  But the rest of the state is pretty anti-military.  I mean... CALENEMA or whatever that is is so offended by the military uniform that they ban wearing it on missions.  I'll bet all them guys still have ponytails.  San Francisco City Council banned ROTC from the schools.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I just call it like I see it. 

[JayT]

I just call it like I see it.

So it would appear.

[PHall]

I just call it like I see it.

You need glases then.


(I'm a retired Air Force Reserve member, so please don't try the "I don't know what I'm talking about" line please. It won't fly.)

[N Harmon]

It's hard not to detect a hint of anti-military in the insistence that CAP conform to state and local ES types. Especially when the GT uniform prohibits military badges. Not to mention the follow up remarks about CAP not being commandos and therefore shouldn't carry "tactical" vests or packs.

[JayT]

It's hard not to detect a hint of anti-military in the insistence that CAP conform to state and local ES types. Especially when the GT uniform prohibits military badges. Not to mention the follow up remarks about CAP not being commandos and therefore shouldn't carry "tactical" vests or packs.

Military badges aren't allowed because it's not an AF approved uniform. Tactical vests and packs doesn't always put out the best messages.

People begin to judge someone the second you step infront of them. A fourteen year old cadet wearing a thirty year old rucksack and ALICE gear doesn't convey "professionalism," it conveys "wannabism."

Again, people are claiming antimiliterism from state emergency managment officals and law enforcement officials who may very well have a military backround.

[billford1]

How bout blue BDU trousers, a polo shirt and the reflective CAP Ball Cap for the GT? That wouldn't cost much.

[Eagle400]

I will grant you that San Diego County is less liberal than the rest of the state.

Yes, but still behind Ventura County.

VC is the Cornerstone of California's traditional commonwealth, with Orange County as the friendly cousin.  These are the only 2 conservative counties left in the entire state.  When people ask me "where in CA should I move", I always tell them Ventura County.       

Without VC and OC, California would fall apart sociologically... and the living concept of "Traditional California Nuclear Family values" would all but shrivel up, and... well... disappear.       

We are essentially the cornerstone of California (and to that end, the only bastion of hope for traditional conservatives).  Except for Orange County, which comes in a close 2nd.     

San Diego's alright --still a whole lot better than L.A. County-- but VC is the best choice by far (in the whole state).


Oh yeah... There's also a huge Navy community here too (Naval Base Ventura County -- Pt. Mugu and Port Hueneme).  Also among us is a sizable Air National Guard community (Channel Islands Air National Guard Station, located at Pt. Mugu). 

Great place to live, very comparable to the Midwest and South.       

[heliodoc]

You'd be suprised how many former RM types and LE types have went to emergency management...

So to say that CAL EMA is lame in its decisions about "uniforms" is pretty off target

Plenty of ex military went these routes and often DO KNOW what they are talking about

This is my second time around CAP and it IS amazing that the "CORPORATION" in its zeal to be a "major player" in ES has the membership chirping about THEIR (CAL EMA ) and the decision about THEIR requirements and how some here on CAPTalk assail as some big problem to go to a uniform that can be seen!!

But this is CAPTalk...where even professional agencies get questioned by CAPers about  other agencies decision and how it affects CAP uniform wear..

I think it best BEHOOOOVE CAP to clean up its 39-1 and come ito the future of ES.... If we are THAT GOOD then an orange or some other color shirt or piece of clothing that can be seen, is not going to matter to the mission.

CALENEMA, huh? NIIIICE   IF I was that EM  and was reading this rag...I'd be talking to the Winng CC about future missions (or not) for CAP

[JayT]

When soldiers partcipate in wildland fire fighting, they normally don't wear ACU's or what not, they wear woodland firefighting gear. Its a uniform and set of equipment that was developed based off of decades of trial and error and learned lessons. It doesn't make them lesser soldiers, nore is it a spit in the face of their service. Its a matter of safety, orders, and need.

I've also seen photos of guys from the 911th Engineer's wearing FEMA USAR gear.

[davidsinn]

When soldiers partcipate in wildland fire fighting, they normally don't wear ACU's or what not, they wear woodland firefighting gear. Its a uniform and set of equipment that was developed based off of decades of trial and error and learned lessons. It doesn't make them lesser soldiers, nore is it a spit in the face of their service. Its a matter of safety, orders, and need.

That is safety gear. This is not. How is this stupid orange shirt any different than an orange vest over our uniform?

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

I have spent approx 20 yrs in wildland fire in some form or another

Spent an equal amount of time in the US Army and Army Guard in aviation operations

To know about both that JTheman talks about....

So let's say that IS CAL EMA's argument for "safety clothing." Sure the orange vests will do....

Problem is......CAP ers, like many, like to grumble about all the little things that occur as change.

Another problem...how much money has the average CAPer bought in bling and geardo field gear that a 32 to 50 dollar shirt is going to affect their participation in missions.

If CAL EMA says to CAP...Orange it is and if that is the approval from both CAL State Gov and approved by NEC..... wellll then CAP by virtue of CAL EMA driving these issues...oh well...its pretty much a done deal.

CAPer can go 'round and 'round about what is and what is not safety gear...

CAP's new found safety program and its originators has a LOOOOOOONG way to go (in comparison to other safety organizations that have an already ESTABLISHED safety culture and one that have MORE than ONLINE tests) to start telling others what is and what is not safety gear.

There plenty of stupid shirts out there and CAP is guilty of stupid moves in clothing and hat wear, also, truth be told....

[a2capt]

How is this stupid orange shirt any different than an orange vest over our uniform?

It's very simple. "you" (whoever) didn't invent it. Someone back when probably thought that a shirt looked better than a reflective vest over top.  Who knows.

Since we don't have the actual whatever it is that has been approved, yet,  we don't know what it really is. But if the CAWG thing was actually sent up the chain and back, and something else was in the works, it would be really silly to have them be totally different. So..

Maybe that whole bit about what happens when CA goes into AZ or NV..  or they come into CA.. will be moot.

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn

I have spent approx 20 yrs in wildland fire in some form or another

Spent an equal amount of time in the US Army and Army Guard in aviation operations

To know about both that JTheman talks about....

So let's say that IS CAL EMA's argument for "safety clothing." Sure the orange vests will do....

Problem is......CAP ers, like many, like to grumble about all the little things that occur as change.

Another problem...how much money has the average CAPer bought in bling and geardo field gear that a 32 to 50 dollar shirt is going to affect their participation in missions.

If CAL EMA says to CAP...Orange it is and if that is the approval from both CAL State Gov and approved by NEC..... wellll then CAP by virtue of CAL EMA driving these issues...oh well...its pretty much a done deal.

CAPer can go 'round and 'round about what is and what is not safety gear...

CAP's new found safety program and its originators has a LOOOOOOONG way to go (in comparison to other safety organizations that have an already ESTABLISHED safety culture and one that have MORE than ONLINE tests) to start telling others what is and what is not safety gear.

There plenty of stupid shirts out there and CAP is guilty of stupid moves in clothing and hat wear, also, truth be told....

Simple fact of the matter is CA is treating our organization differently than they treat others. It is not required to have that stupid shirt to be in SAR , however we must.

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

How is CAL EMA treating us different than others??

Like everything else here on CAPTalk....talk is cheap or is that cheeeeeep.  Prove that, in print, or the famous CAPTalk cry....CITE PLEASE that CAP is being treated different...Maybe then you got a case to CRY...wait for it.......DISCRIMINATION...

Do the other SAR organizations (volunteer, not paid like SO and LE) wear BDU's?

I haven't seen the REAL text on this issue....but a bunch of volunteers in BDU's is a liability to other paid organizations as far as  the EMA, State LE types and quite possibly the lawyers at the State level....could that be a very distinct possibility??

Could be stupid rule for a stupid shirt.....write a letter up your chain of command and Arnold.......I am sure I know would happen to that letter

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn

How is CAL EMA treating us different than others??

Like everything else here on CAPTalk....talk is cheap or is that cheeeeeep.  Prove that, in print, or the famous CAPTalk cry....CITE PLEASE that CAP is being treated different...Maybe then you got a case to CRY...wait for it.......DISCRIMINATION...

Do the other SAR organizations (volunteer, not paid like SO and LE) wear BDU's?

I haven't seen the REAL text on this issue....but a bunch of volunteers in BDU's is a liability to other paid organizations as far as  the EMA, State LE types and quite possibly the lawyers at the State level....could that be a very distinct possibility??

Could be stupid rule for a stupid shirt.....write a letter up your chain of command and Arnold.......I am sure I know would happen to that letter

Others on this board have already shown CA SAR groups that don't wear this ridiculous uniform. If they don't have to then why should we? I don't really have a dog in the fight. I'm several thousand miles away and I'm not planning on ever visiting CA. I just don't want to see this stupidity spread to the more sane parts of the nation.

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn


I do not have a dog in the fight either.  However, I spent 3 summers in CA fighting fire in places people would die to visit or go camping
(Northern and NE CA and as far South a South Zone LA and further)

To say you are not going to visit CA due to uni issues is pretty silly.

Stupidity to you, maybe.  The rest of CAP needs a "come to Jesus) moment on how it NEEDS to play on others missions.

I still would like to see (in TEXT) the the reasoning and who were the players deciding it.   

Who says CAP needs to remain in BDU's to remain a support search and locate function to other agencies?  Maybe PAPA 1 AF will see the reasoning to get CAP into some new duds...to keep CAP happy as a CORPORATION and the AF happy that the fat and fuzzies and others in CAP will be wearing something they do not have to monitor 'cuz some in CAP act like morons while in AF uniform.....

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn


I do not have a dog in the fight either.  However, I spent 3 summers in CA fighting fire in places people would die to visit or go camping
(Northern and NE CA and as far South a South Zone LA and further)

To say you are not going to visit CA due to uni issues is pretty silly.

Stupidity to you, maybe.  The rest of CAP needs a "come to Jesus) moment on how it NEEDS to play on others missions.

I still would like to see (in TEXT) the the reasoning and who were the players deciding it.   

Who says CAP needs to remain in BDU's to remain a support search and locate function to other agencies?  Maybe PAPA 1 AF will see the reasoning to get CAP into some new duds...to keep CAP happy as a CORPORATION and the AF happy that the fat and fuzzies and others in CAP will be wearing something they do not have to monitor 'cuz some in CAP act like morons while in AF uniform.....

We need to stay in BDUs because that's our uniform. Our members already own it. Throw a vest over it and you are visible. It works in the other 51 wings. Why is CA any different?

It's not the uniform that'll prevent me from ever visiting. It's the extreme distance and the incredibly stupid laws they have out there. That and I just have no interest in visiting that state.

[JayT]

Mr Sinn


I do not have a dog in the fight either.  However, I spent 3 summers in CA fighting fire in places people would die to visit or go camping
(Northern and NE CA and as far South a South Zone LA and further)

To say you are not going to visit CA due to uni issues is pretty silly.

Stupidity to you, maybe.  The rest of CAP needs a "come to Jesus) moment on how it NEEDS to play on others missions.

I still would like to see (in TEXT) the the reasoning and who were the players deciding it.   

Who says CAP needs to remain in BDU's to remain a support search and locate function to other agencies?  Maybe PAPA 1 AF will see the reasoning to get CAP into some new duds...to keep CAP happy as a CORPORATION and the AF happy that the fat and fuzzies and others in CAP will be wearing something they do not have to monitor 'cuz some in CAP act like morons while in AF uniform.....

We need to stay in BDUs because that's our uniform. Our members already own it. Throw a vest over it and you are visible. It works in the other 51 wings. Why is CA any different?

It's not the uniform that'll prevent me from ever visiting. It's the extreme distance and the incredibly stupid laws they have out there. That and I just have no interest in visiting that state.

Well, when you get down to it, I guess the simple answer is that CAWG's leadership and the emergency management officals who are incharge have ordered it. From my own limited understanding of the situation, this has been a uniform that California Wing, Colorado Wing, and a few other places have tossed around for a while.

Again, from my limited understanding of the situation, it would also appear there may be other concerns as well. Perhaps a few too many GTM's were wearing gear or combat vests over their safety vests. Perhaps this will allow CAP types to wear whatever they want, and still remain visiable. Also, I noticed a prohbition on rank or grade insignia. Many CAP officers and cadets fail to realize that in law enforcement, EMS, and the fire service, someone wearing railroad tracks or oak leafs is a high ranking officer, a policy setting officer, not just another team member or staffer.

Again, when you get down to it, if the bosses want it that way, that's the way it is. Perhaps the better solution would be some sort of grant to supply GTMs with these shirts, or create a common stock of them.

A Soldier or Marine or Airmen wearing a wildland or USAR rig is not any less of a serviceman/woman because they're not in "their uniform," are they?

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

Yep for the time being BDU's is the uniform and orange vests are the thing

But the days are coming....for CAP to change...can not say for sure when...but when it does come, there will be  alot of tears shed in CAP (or not)

[SarDragon]

As a potential wearer of this uniform, I can tell you that it more comfortable than a BDU blouse with a vest over it. I know folks who wore the combination in its previous iteration, and they can confirm that.