AUX ON/OFF question

[Holding Pattern]

In AUX ON status, there are several rules, regulations, and laws that apply to us that to my understanding have zero applicability to CAP the corporation or to members of CAP when not operating in an AUX ON status. One that always gets brought up but never analyzed deeply (IMO) is the Posse Comitatus Act (hereafter PCA).

Now, even a most basic reading of the act will tell you its purpose: To limit the powers of the federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States.

Well as so many people here are fond of pointing out, we aren't the military, and we aren't part of the #totalforce except under very carefully defined circumstances.

It therefore follows that in AUX OFF status, there is zero way that the PCA can apply to us. Yet I've heard that used as the reason we can't do incredibly basic things like be flight line monitors, doorway greeters, or traffic directors in parking lots. In other areas I've heard it used as the reason we can't be used for evidence recovery when police are doing remains searches.

Is my understanding of the PCA flawed? Should we as AUX OFF members of the CAP corporation be allowed to do the things that any other VOAD would do in similar circumstances?

[NovemberWhiskey]

As far I know: no, it's not flawed. The Air Force General Counsel issued an interpretation letter indicating that CAP was generally not subject to the Posse Comitatus Act unless participating in an Air Force directed mission.

[arajca]

As I've been told the PCA also applies to any equip CAP has that was provided or funded by the AF such as vehicles, radios, aircraft, uniforms from DLA-DS, ABUs from the MCSS when CAP was first approved to wear them...

[Eclipse]

It therefore follows that in AUX OFF status, there is zero way that the PCA can apply to us. Yet I've heard that used as the reason we can't do incredibly basic things like be flight line monitors, doorway greeters, or traffic directors in parking lots. In other areas I've heard it used as the reason we can't be used for evidence recovery when police are doing remains searches.

There is no restriction on CAP being a flight line monitor, door greeter, or traffic director. The problem comes
in with the fact that CAP is not, and cannot (by it's own regulations), act as law enforcement, so it has no power
to stop anyone who isn't going with the flow voluntarily.

A CAP member has no power or authority to force anyone to comply with their directives, so if a 10 year old girl
runs past a member on a flight line, all they can do is yell "halt".

That sets up the perception of authority where none actually exists, and risks everything from the above to
drunk guys with a chip who want to prove their manhood to the girlfriend.

When directing traffic, if a CAP member tells someone to stop, and they don't, they are powerless to enforce anything.
However if they point a car into another car, and there is property damage or someone is hurt, they are potentially liable.

With all that said, it's not prohibited by PCA, per se, and is done all the time in CAP.

NHQ has made the argument for years that border surveillance and counter drug are done as the corporation and not the
auxiliary.  Most informed people take that for what it is.

[Holding Pattern]

As far I know: no, it's not flawed. The Air Force General Counsel issued an interpretation letter indicating that CAP was generally not subject to the Posse Comitatus Act unless participating in an Air Force directed mission.

Do you have a link to that letter?

[Mitchell 1969]

In AUX ON status, there are several rules, regulations, and laws that apply to us that to my understanding have zero applicability to CAP the corporation or to members of CAP when not operating in an AUX ON status. One that always gets brought up but never analyzed deeply (IMO) is the Posse Comitatus Act (hereafter PCA).

Now, even a most basic reading of the act will tell you its purpose: To limit the powers of the federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States.

Well as so many people here are fond of pointing out, we aren't the military, and we aren't part of the #totalforce except under very carefully defined circumstances.

It therefore follows that in AUX OFF status, there is zero way that the PCA can apply to us. Yet I've heard that used as the reason we can't do incredibly basic things like be flight line monitors, doorway greeters, or traffic directors in parking lots. In other areas I've heard it used as the reason we can't be used for evidence recovery when police are doing remains searches.

Is my understanding of the PCA flawed? Should we as AUX OFF members of the CAP corporation be allowed to do the things that any other VOAD would do in similar circumstances?

Posse Comitatus is usually translated to mean "power of the County," ie allowing the Sheriff to call upon the citizenry to act in matters of law enforcement, under the authority of the Sheriff. The theory, often with different statutory definitions, is often extended to city and state governments.

The fact that it is local government which is empowered to use PC is a big tip-off that using CAP for flight line monitors, doorway greeters or traffic directors in parking lots are most likely not prohibited by PC. None of those activities require law enforcement authority per se, especially if the venue is not a government owned one. The only time I've seen law enforcement officers deployed as flight line monitors at a civilian airport s when the flight line includes a Special Air Mission aircraft (think Air Force One) or, rarely, a military aircraft requiring 24/7 stationing of protective services (usually USAF, but with local PD liaison).

Cities and counties all over the US employ civilian traffic control people, without law enforcement authority but sometimes having citation authority. But simply directing traffic requires neither. Also. venues such as shopping malls, Disneyland, concerts etc often use traffic controllers who are armed with nothing more than a whistle, if that. In all of those cases, any need for LE authority is satisfied by calling LE.

It isn't PC that keeps CAP or any other organization from searches for human remains. I've used police officers, security officers, airport maintenance workers for those searches. Looking requires no special authority. However, RETRIEVAL is another matter, but even that isn't a OC issue - it is a chain of custody issue. Nobody needs 50 people each retrieving a fingernail or a piece of bone or tissue. In one incident memorable for its scope, we set it up so that a large group of searchers were spread out. If any one of them located an item of personal property, they'd raise their left hand, which would result in an FBI agent and a police sergeant responding. A quick look for evidentiary value would be made. If there was no such value, the items would be turned over to the air carrier rep for return to family as personal effects. If possible human remains were located, right hand would go up, with police sergeant and Deputy Coroner responding. If it was determined to be human remains, Deputy Coroner would keep it.

You've received other answers regarding the practicalities and I won't repeat them. I'm just posting this reply to clear up what appears to be some folklore and "sea stories" that were passed along to you, somehow turning posse comitatus i to something it isn't. 



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[xyzzy]

Who is authorized to control traffic on public roads varies by state. Back in the 1980s or 90s in New York State, with a few specific exceptions, one had to be a "peace officer" to control traffic. Volunteer departments would train some of their members and designate them as "fire police"; they had the authority to direct traffic while other firefighters did not. It's possible that the New York State laws have been relaxed since the time I was a volunteer firefighter there.

Not terribly relevant to posse comitatus but very relevant to ground teams. Know the state laws before you start directing traffic.

[OldGuy]

ASSISTANCE TO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS
CAP may provide passive assistance to law enforcement officers and agencies;
according to CAP 900-3 "Civil Air Patrol units and CAP members engaged in CAP
activities may provide passive assistance to law enforcement officers and agencies."
CAP assistance to law enforcement agencies which may lead to criminal prosecution is
restricted to patrol, reconnaissance, and reporting only. Assistance may also be a byproduct
of the normal conduct of the CAP mission. In some instances, such as during
an airborne search, CAP members may observe suspicious activities and as concerned
citizens, should report those activities to proper authorities. When requested by proper
authorities, CAP members may provide crash site surveillance and/or crowd control
duties during an emergency/disaster situation. When on such a mission, the senior CAP
member present will ensure the above restrictions are understood and will contact the
nearest law enforcement officer if assistance is required.
CAP may not- CAP members may not be deputized nor may they take an active part in
arrest or detention activities and have no authority to restrict persons by means of force,
actual or implied. CAP members may not carry firearms. (Exceptions for Law
Enforcement Officials and survival gear may be found in CAPR 900-3)
How CAP gets involved: Requests for such assistance, unless of an emergency nature,
must be approved in advance by the Wing and Region Commanders and coordinated
with HQ CAP/DO through the National Operations Center. All CAP flights will be in
accordance with CAPR 60-1.
COUNTER DRUG
Because of the impact drugs have had on the US, Congress has authorized the DoD to
provide support for counter-drug operations. However CAP cannot become involved
directly in law enforcement because of the Posse Comitatus Act. The Posse Comitatus
Act directly limits CAP's support to civilian law enforcement. There are statutory
exceptions that provide for limited indirect support to civilian law enforcement agencies
that are charged with implementing the anti-drug laws. (CAPR 60-6)
CAP may provide detection, monitoring and communication of movement of air and sea
traffic. CAP may perform aerial reconnaissance of property but not surveillance of
people. CAP may operate equipment to facilitate communications in connection with
counterdrug law enforcement operations. CAP may provide repeater aircraft, operate
CAP radio equipment in support of counterdrug activities, and transport civilian law
enforcement agents in support of counterdrug operations (CAPR 60-6). To participate in
this type of operations requires additional applications, training and background checks.
Contact your group or wing CDO.)
"CAP may not give direct law enforcement assistance to civil authorities and may not be
used to execute the laws of, or to perform civilian enforcement functions within, the
United States directly, such as in arrest, search and seizure, stop and frisk, or
interdiction of vessels, aircraft, or vehicles. CAP may not conduct surveillance or
pursuit of individuals. CAP personnel may not act as informants, undercover agents, or
investigators." (CAPR 60-6)
How CAP Gets involved - CAP has established relationships with DEA, Customs and
other agencies through Memorandums of Understanding (MOUs) discussed below.
Each MOU details how a mission is activated and who is to be involved. Generally
speaking only those actually on the mission and the Operations Officer and Wing
Commander will know about a mission.

[Eclipse]

In every missing person situation I've been involved in, as soon as there is any whiff of
foul play, CAP was called off, even if the general public are still out searching, because
it's now a law enforcement / PCA issue.

The whole "surveillance vs. observation" thing is a mine field as well, that is the basis
of CAP being able fly borders flights in the Southwest.

However the whole issue is academic until someone makes a PCA challenge to a given activity,
in which case that challenge is generally going to be against the organizaiton, not any given
person.

You're not likely to see approved CAP Missions or activities that aren't at least scratch-pad justifiable
from a PCA perspective. 

Individual actions are a different matter, and if individual members do something that violates PCA,
they are also violating CAP regs, and should be shown the door.

[TheSkyHornet]

^ Is that maybe a local issue?

I've known ground teams here that have not had that same experience.

[NovemberWhiskey]

Do you have a link to that letter?

https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/DOD/manual/Full%20text%20documents/Other%20Relevant%20References/Posse-Comitatus-Guidance-FINAL.pdf

[Mitchell 1969]

Who is authorized to control traffic on public roads varies by state. Back in the 1980s or 90s in New York State, with a few specific exceptions, one had to be a "peace officer" to control traffic. Volunteer departments would train some of their members and designate them as "fire police"; they had the authority to direct traffic while other firefighters did not. It's possible that the New York State laws have been relaxed since the time I was a volunteer firefighter there.

Not terribly relevant to posse comitatus but very relevant to ground teams. Know the state laws before you start directing traffic.

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.


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[OldGuy]

Who is authorized to control traffic on public roads varies by state. Back in the 1980s or 90s in New York State, with a few specific exceptions, one had to be a "peace officer" to control traffic. Volunteer departments would train some of their members and designate them as "fire police"; they had the authority to direct traffic while other firefighters did not. It's possible that the New York State laws have been relaxed since the time I was a volunteer firefighter there.

Not terribly relevant to posse comitatus but very relevant to ground teams. Know the state laws before you start directing traffic.

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.


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During the Long Beach Grand Prix (1976/77/78 era) we did crowd control on the streets of Long Beach, CA.

[Mitchell 1969]

Who is authorized to control traffic on public roads varies by state. Back in the 1980s or 90s in New York State, with a few specific exceptions, one had to be a "peace officer" to control traffic. Volunteer departments would train some of their members and designate them as "fire police"; they had the authority to direct traffic while other firefighters did not. It's possible that the New York State laws have been relaxed since the time I was a volunteer firefighter there.

Not terribly relevant to posse comitatus but very relevant to ground teams. Know the state laws before you start directing traffic.

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.


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During the Long Beach Grand Prix (1976/77/78 era) we did crowd control on the streets of Long Beach, CA.

But I'll betcha a buck that CAP was not assigned to perform traffic control on public streets during the Grand Prix, which is the matter under discussion in the post that you quoted. (Crowd control in itself does not require any law enforcement authority unless and until somebody refuses to comply, in which case a call to LE is the next action).


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[OldGuy]

Who is authorized to control traffic on public roads varies by state. Back in the 1980s or 90s in New York State, with a few specific exceptions, one had to be a "peace officer" to control traffic. Volunteer departments would train some of their members and designate them as "fire police"; they had the authority to direct traffic while other firefighters did not. It's possible that the New York State laws have been relaxed since the time I was a volunteer firefighter there.

Not terribly relevant to posse comitatus but very relevant to ground teams. Know the state laws before you start directing traffic.

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.


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During the Long Beach Grand Prix (1976/77/78 era) we did crowd control on the streets of Long Beach, CA.

But I'll betcha a buck that CAP was not assigned to perform traffic control on public streets during the Grand Prix, which is the matter under discussion in the post that you quoted. (Crowd control in itself does not require any law enforcement authority unless and until somebody refuses to comply, in which case a call to LE is the next action).


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I have a vague recollection of doing traffic control, possibly at the parking lots. That was a long time ago.

[baronet68]

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.

During the Long Beach Grand Prix (1976/77/78 era) we did crowd control on the streets of Long Beach, CA.

But I'll betcha a buck that CAP was not assigned to perform traffic control on public streets during the Grand Prix, which is the matter under discussion in the post that you quoted. (Crowd control in itself does not require any law enforcement authority unless and until somebody refuses to comply, in which case a call to LE is the next action).

I have a vague recollection of doing traffic control, possibly at the parking lots. That was a long time ago.

1984-88, there is a county in my state that grows a certain tulip-shaped flower, for which there is a large festival that ties up traffic all throughout the county.

As cadets, we were tasked with traffic control on a one-mile stretch of a public road, for an entire week.  We were sometimes assigned in pairs, but often stationed at intersections alone and without a senior member anywhere to be seen.  Occasionally, the Sheriff Deputies or a State Patrol Trooper might stop by to see how we were doing but we were pretty doing our own thing. None of us were deputized, ordained, or even trained beforehand.  The police just needed every warm body they could get to deal with the miles of bumper-to-bumper traffic.  It took them about 5 years to figure out ways to route/limit traffic to make it a less chaotic and once they solved the problem, we were never called again.

[Holding Pattern]

I finally found supporting documentation:

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/302521p.pdf

DODI NUMBER 3025.21

Section 1 covers all the restrictions, Section 2 covers the exceptions. S2 mentions:

2.  EXCEPTIONS BASED ON STATUS.  The restrictions in section 1 of this enclosure do not apply to:

e.  A member of the Civil Air Patrol, except when performing missions pursuant to section 9442(b) of Reference (d).

I think that covers that.

[TheSkyHornet]

Are we really going to argue how we conducted traffic control during the 1970s and 1980s?

Welcome to the Millennium, gents.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Currently New York City Group is asked to assist with the Tunnel to Towers Marathon from Brooklyn to Manhattan NY.

We first place barrier tape and police barricades along a long sidewalk stretch from the Ikea parking lot to the Brooklyn end of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. After this, cadets and seniors man crosswalks to stop cars at corners so registered runners can cross or stop these runners from crossing so cars can cross. There is NYPD presence, but most of these crossing guard duties are done by New York City Group volunteers. Usually a squadron of Connecticut Wing also helps with the same duties.

[Fubar]

The Blue Beret NCSA has cadets acting as security all the time. So far, to my knowledge, they haven't attempted to arrest anyone.

[xyzzy]

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.


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It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

[Ozzy]

It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

In which case you drive until you find an actual safe space to pull over as close to the point.

[xyzzy]

It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

In which case you drive until you find an actual safe space to pull over as close to the point.

That could be miles.

[Ozzy]

It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

In which case you drive until you find an actual safe space to pull over as close to the point.

That could be miles.

Could be 20 feet, could be a lot of things. Still shouldn't do it.

[CAP9907]

It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

In which case you drive until you find an actual safe space to pull over as close to the point.

That could be miles.

Do your ORM...  does the risk of 'directing traffic' outweigh waiting until you get to a safer spot? Likely not in most cases..

[Eclipse]

Flagging cars in an emergency has nothing to do with PCA.

What any particular member, unit, group, or wing has done 40 years ago,
or is going to do next week doesn't either, since in addition to times and
the organization changing their risk posture significantly, members, units, groups, and wings
do far too much stuff that is "questionable" if not outright against regs under the
guise of emergencies, because people don't like to say "no", or because
people don't ask the "second question" in case they might be told "no".

This...


...is all CAP members are allowed to do when someone challenges or breaks their security
observation line whether it's a plane crash, Air Venture, or the local Fly-In. 

And the general public is under no more obligation to listen to a CAP member then they are "Jimmy the
parking guy" if they are directing people in a parking lot.

For most people with common sense and a low BAC, the presence of a uniform or safety vests compels
their actions because common sense out weighs their stupid for the day, however in this day and age,
when police officers are being kicked out of Starbucks because they make someone feel "unsafe",
that same uniform could well be the impetus for a problem.

I'll say it again "the implication of authority where none exists" can be a dangerous situation.

Bottom line, PCA doesn't even come into play in any of these situations, and is really only a talking
point at the National level.  If someone says "we can't do 'x' locally" because of PCA, it's likely there were
4 CAP regs, or common sense that trumped PCA before even needing the discussion.

[Mitchell 1969]

I can't recall ever seeing CAP tasked with controlling traffic on public roads. More likely in parking lots for air shows or other scheduled events.


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It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

Note that I said I couldn't recall seeing CAP tasked with traffic control. Others seem to recall seeing and even doing it. That's between them, their local law enforcement agency and the opinion of their legal officer, I suppose. But "tasked with" implies knowledge of risks etc. amd acceptance of same. "Tasked with" and isn't the same as "happens upon."

I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of CAP stopping in roadways and sending people to direct traffic around a vehicle in any circumstance short of a right there, right now, emergency. Such as rendering aid at a collision scene or similar. I don't know how getting an azimuth would fit into that. I don't know how CAP would answer some probing questions should anyone be killed or injured doing that.


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[Mitchell 1969]

It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

In which case you drive until you find an actual safe space to pull over as close to the point.

That could be miles.

Life's tough.


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[SarDragon]

It may be necessary to direct traffic when a van must be stopped on a road that lacks a shoulder or breakdown lane to perform any aspect of a mission, such as stopping to get a direction-finding azimuth.

In which case you drive until you find an actual safe space to pull over as close to the point.

That could be miles.

Life's tough.


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As you probably recall, CA has high places, and not-so-high places. The former are great places to get bearings, but are frequently, at the same time, not the best places to stop alongside the road. When I do this, find the most visible place at the top to stop. I have my flashers on, and also a separate red rotating beacon that I put on my roof and turn on. Also, everyone is wearing the requisite ANSI II outerwear.

[CAP9907]

OK...

Anything else on-topic here?

Otherwise we are done.

~9907

[Holding Pattern]

OK...

Anything else on-topic here?

Otherwise we are done.

~9907

Other than locating that GC letter, I got all I needed from this thread.

EDIT: I see it was posted and I missed it. So I got all I need here.

[CAPed Crusader]

I don't think I understand this topic. What do you mean by ''Aux on'' and ''Aux off?'' Are you saying we are sometimes considered USAF personnel? Can someone please break it down for me?

[CAP9907]

I don't think I understand this topic. What do you mean by ''Aux on'' and ''Aux off?'' Are you saying we are sometimes considered USAF personnel? Can someone please break it down for me?

No, we are not as we are civilians. Take any other questions up with your chain of command.

Done.

9907