Plane Carrying U.S., Mexico Border Officials Missing

[CAPPAO]

I wonder why CAP wasn't called in for this search, or are we only good for tracking down malfunctioning ELTs?


FOXNEWS.COM HOME > U.S.
       
Plane Carrying U.S., Mexico Border Officials Missing
Monday, September 15, 2008

MARFA, Texas —  A plane carrying the U.S. and Mexican heads of the International Water and Boundary Commission disappeared Monday while touring floods along the Rio Grande.

Commissioners Carlos Marin, of the U.S. section, and Arturo Herrera, from Mexico, were flying to Presidio, Texas, from El Paso but the plane did not land as scheduled, Presidio County Judge Jerry Agen said. The plane carried the pilot and one other passenger, he said.

The chartered Cessna 421 propeller plane left about 10 a.m. and was to fly over a reservoir in Mexico so the men could see a dam where water is being released to ease flooding, said Sally Spener, a spokeswoman for the IBWC in El Paso.

Agen said searchers were looking in a rough, mountainous section of desert about 60 miles west of Presidio. "It's a rough area out there, with very few roads," Agen said.

Spener said the Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Border Patrol were involved in the search, though she could not confirm the search area.

Marin and Herrera head the international agency responsible for maintaining the border between the U.S. and Mexico. Each man's office inspects and maintains river levees along the Rio Grande.

[Flying Pig]

I wonder why CAP wasn't called in for this search, or are we only good for tracking down malfunctioning ELTs?


FOXNEWS.COM HOME > U.S.
       
Plane Carrying U.S., Mexico Border Officials Missing
Monday, September 15, 2008

MARFA, Texas —  A plane carrying the U.S. and Mexican heads of the International Water and Boundary Commission disappeared Monday while touring floods along the Rio Grande.

Commissioners Carlos Marin, of the U.S. section, and Arturo Herrera, from Mexico, were flying to Presidio, Texas, from El Paso but the plane did not land as scheduled, Presidio County Judge Jerry Agen said. The plane carried the pilot and one other passenger, he said.

The chartered Cessna 421 propeller plane left about 10 a.m. and was to fly over a reservoir in Mexico so the men could see a dam where water is being released to ease flooding, said Sally Spener, a spokeswoman for the IBWC in El Paso.

Agen said searchers were looking in a rough, mountainous section of desert about 60 miles west of Presidio. "It's a rough area out there, with very few roads," Agen said.

Spener said the Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Border Patrol were involved in the search, though she could not confirm the search area.

Marin and Herrera head the international agency responsible for maintaining the border between the U.S. and Mexico. Each man's office inspects and maintains river levees along the Rio Grande.

There's your answer.  CBP has plenty of airplanes and helicopters and BORSTAR looking, not to mention USAF SAR.  Believe it or not, there are agencies out there who can manage without calling CAP.

This cant be good.  A chartered plane full of government officials missing on a rather simple flight? 

[citizensoldier]

I will be interested to hear what happened to the plane.  This just sounds odd to me.

[Major Carrales]

The answer is that all Texas Wing CAP has been active and occupied with the IKE Storm Recovery.  Likely,also, the International nature of this mission precludes CAP direct operations, at least initially. 

The Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Border Patrol are instruments of the Federal Government proper and thus are arms of the USA to which the State Department is in touch with the Diplomatic ministries of other nations, like Mexico.

I can tell you that our Archer Crews have been scanning the gulf and other areas for chemical leaks and Wing Aviation assets have bene launching from San Atonio and are now deployed to the forward areas in West Houston.  I know this because I was the Mission Radio Operator that was dispatching them to their sorties.

Just wait, if we are needed, we'll be called.  Likely you can expect New Mexico Wing or South West Region to repond to that call unitl Texas Wing Assest are completed with their missions.

[_]

Take a look at WMIRS

[CAPPAO]

Yeah, I guess we wouldn't want to be burdened with a high-profile search for a missing aircraft over the continental US (our No. 1 mission) when we are so busy taking pictures of possible chemical leaks.

[heliodoc]

^^^^

YEP  It's in alllll those priorities

But as stated above this is high viz operation and those folks (CBP, State, USAF) are PROBABLY able to pick up quicker than an AFRCC call to CAP

Granted, I get flamed for this comment, and I DO realize this is our No 1 mission

But those agencies have their SAR act set up already for this...why make ANOTHER phone call?

[RiverAux]

In what way are any of those agencies really ready to go looking for a missing civilian aircraft any more than CAP is?  I'd bet CAP does more missing airplane searches in a year than all of them have done together in the last five.

By the way, we've been flying all day on this mission. 

[heliodoc]

Well, River

I would imagine (since I would imagine that is TRUE OPSEC) that those agencies have contingencies for this type osf situation, wouldn't you agree??

I'm not betting anything.... CAP probably does more missing airplane searches

THOSE agencies are not reporting to CAP... but I would venture to say they have a SAR and recovery plan, documented in agency regs.  That much I would imagine

Again, I am not betting anything, they have aircraft and PLANS ready to do these operations and CAP flying this mission, today??  Well congrats

[Major Carrales]

Yeah, I guess we wouldn't want to be burdened with a high-profile search for a missing aircraft over the continental US (our No. 1 mission) when we are so busy taking pictures of possible chemical leaks.

That is something a PAO would/should/could never say in public.  We fly what we are given as our mission, that said, the CAP is already on the job on the search. There is a mission number, IC and staff already working.

The Mission over Houston/Galveston is no more or less important than a plane crash.  They are equal in scope.  We will do both and currrently are.

I'm starting to think that CAPTALK, because of the verbal fiascoes I've seen on here lately, is not really compatible with Civil Air Patrol Public Affairs.  Again, be mindful of what is being posted here.

[flyerthom]

My impression coming from the media is the plane is missing over Mexican territory. Therefore CAP would be not be  primary or even secondary assets.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26746770/

[JohnKachenmeister]

That MIGHT be the reason we're not involved.  The Border Patrol has guns.  We don't.  You need guns there.

[flyerthom]

That MIGHT be the reason we're not involved.  The Border Patrol has guns.  We don't.  You need guns there.

STC?  I don't need no stinkin' STC!


(FWIW - and for the humor impaired  it's not me and  it's PVC pipe and black paint)

[DNall]

Just FYI.... TXWG conducted this REDCAP & fully supported ongoing disaster ops w/o shorting either one. It's a big state. That mission was 700 miles away from our hurricane op. I say past tense cause I was told it has been located & they're recovering remains. No confirmation of that or if CAP made the find, just that it's found.

We are currently doing somewhat more than looking for leaky pipes. I believe we've done something like 75 sorties on our state mission number alone. That's detailed systematic assessment photo runs over the whole area. We've also flown for FEMA, 1AF, and 3-4 others. We've flown at least half a dozen congressmen, county, & city officials. Our ground folks are working distribution sites, but very frustrated they aren't being allowed to do more.

NHQ PA will be out tmrw, as will a couple local media outlets doing features. I would expect some of that to make national media. I'll tell you right now that a whole lot of my area is damaged. Galveston is outright wrecked, as are some other areas east of Houston. Most everything else came out okay, but there is visible damage everywhere you look. Almost everyone was without power for at least a little while, and we still have well over a million out. Groceries & gas stations have been shut down, but are starting to come back. However, both are in very short supply with long lines & little to be had. In the face of that, our area hasn't behaved like morons as some other cities have. We've done an excellent job of being self reliant & helping each other out w/o waiting for govt to come save us. Regular people with their whole lives wrecked are out volunteering in force. That's getting a lot of press the last day or so. CAP is going to get featured as a way of highlighting that overall trend, and I hope it gets picked up so yall can see it too.

I got plenty complaints w/ the under utilization of CAP, and with CAP for not fixing our internal problems so that wouldn't be the case, but that's for lessons learned after this is over.

[CAPPAO]

So let me see if I've gotten this right. According to some of the posts CAP was actually in on this high profile mission. That's nice. So tell me why then we weren't listed with the other contributing agencies? Did AFRCC or the USAF or the FAA just FORGET we were involved?

[Rotorhead]

It isn't their job to do our PR. That's the CAP PAO (or MIO's) role.

The "list" of involved agencies in the story came from the International Water and Boundary Commission 's spokesperson.

I'm not suprised CAP was left off. I'm also not real surprised that CAP's own PAO didn't get us included in the story; it happens all the time.

[sparks]

After more than two days of searching, the Cessna was located at a very remote site in Mexico about 23 miles northwest of Presidio, Texas, and about 13 miles from the Rio Grande River in the Sierra Madre Mountains.

The fact it took more than 48 hours to find the plane raised security concerns along the border, where drug trafficking is common.

"This is very remote country, and we can't always be sure that people aren't crossing our border. The Customs and Border Protection Air Marine Organization is responsible for that; they do an excellent job, but it's very remote country," Marfa Sector Border Patrol spokesman Bill Brooks said. The site is only reachable on foot and is about a 30-minute walk from the nearest helicopter landing site, said agents.

Officers on the ground were able to confirm that it was the missing aircraft by its tail number.

The U.S. Border Patrol said the wreckage of the plane was found about 12:30 p.m. MDT Wednesday in a rugged section of the Sierra Madre Mountains in Mexico.

Since CAP isn't authorized to cross the border our assistance couldn't be requested. Also, the bandits/drug dealers are another disincentive. As noted before, they have guns we don't

[CAPPAO]

Since CAP isn't authorized to cross the border our assistance couldn't be requested.

None of the other agencies that were involved in the search are authorized to cross the border either, so I still think we should have been in on this from the beginning and listed with the others...

[Eclipse]

Since CAP isn't authorized to cross the border our assistance couldn't be requested.

None of the other agencies that were involved in the search are authorized to cross the border either, so I still think we should have been in on this from the beginning and listed with the others...

Please.

[notaNCO forever]

Why are you all making a big deal about this when we couldn't of made a difference anyways? Why do you even think they would involve a group of civilians for a multi country incident? I wouldn't want to be involved in the search anyways since there would probably be to much jurisdictional junk to deal with.

[CAPPAO]

The big deal is that CAP is being marginalized out of providing high profile assistance and in time this will result in less funding and even fewer missions.

[Ricochet13]

The big deal is that CAP is being marginalized out of providing high profile assistance and in time this will result in less funding and even fewer missions.

Looking up to see if the sky is descending.   

[FW]

Oh, darn... it was some bird stuff agian....  well, they say it's good luck.

BTW, if it weren't for the posts, I would have never known about this "high profile" incident.  For some reason my paper and local tv stations are talking about some DOW and AIG problems.  Gee, I wonder if my aircraft is still insured?

[Eclipse]

The big deal is that CAP is being marginalized out of providing high profile assistance and in time this will result in less funding and even fewer missions.

We participated fully, even though a more important and higher visibility effort is underway at the same time.

We're not marginalized from anything, and just as was of providing information, CAP is  involved in important low visibility missions all the time.  They are low visibility because the customer asks them to be.

Having flown some myself, I can attest to the validity of the low profile request.

[CAPPAO]

Well, I guess I stand corrected. All is well and going just fabulously for CAP...

[Flying Pig]

In what way are any of those agencies really ready to go looking for a missing civilian aircraft any more than CAP is?  I'd bet CAP does more missing airplane searches in a year than all of them have done together in the last five.

By the way, we've been flying all day on this mission. 

Your not serious?  Thats the problem with CAP members sometimes.  Absolutely no knowledge of what happens in the outside world.  I can assure you the quslifications to become a CBP aircrew or pilot goes far beyond some online courses and a Form 91.
I would imagine the average CBP aircrew member as an individual has probably done more SAR and are much more intimately familiar with their search area than any CAP member and are much more well equipped and trained to do SAR in the desert than a CAP aircrew.  Get over your bad-self.

[Eclipse]

Well, I guess I stand corrected. All is well and going just fabulously for CAP...

Actually, if you don't feel that things are, you may need to step back and do some research.

We have new, effective leadership that appears to have a clear vision of CAP and how to get
us to a level of normalcy so that we can then reach up to more missions from there.

The national leadership continues to work on correcting problems caused by HWSRN.

CAP crews are incredibly busy all over the country with DR and other missions, as they have been most of the year.

What more do you want?

[Flying Pig]

I think there are a few members here who arent going to be satisfied until they are invited to the Pentagon and personally briefed by the Secretary of Defense and offered a list of classified missions to choose from.

[Eclipse]

^ Word.

[Major Carrales]

You people need to watch what you are writing on here.  Much of this is bad form.

Fact is CAP is good at what it does when it is tasked.  Comparing CAP to other organizations, especially ones that are well funded and that utilize paid personnel who are at it for their job is ludicrious.

Mostly, we are a multiplying force to those organizations.  When it is our turn to take the lead we will do well at that as well. 

You all need to heed my advice... "Be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what we are not."

[flyerthom]

Yeah, I guess we wouldn't want to be burdened with a high-profile search for a missing aircraft over the continental US (our No. 1 mission) when we are so busy taking pictures of possible chemical leaks.

Point 1) The mission was not over the US, it was in Mexico. If Mexico has a CAP it's their mission.  All agencies in use on such a search have international treaty rights and obligations.

Point 2) Chemical leaks are a major epidemiological event thus making it a very high profile mission. The information gathered from damage assessments photos will affect thousands of lives, millions of dollars, and miles of ecosystems. Successful missions here  - while not generating Kodak moments - puts CAP in the eyes of the check writers.

Point 3) Playing cowboy and charging into areas we aren't tasked to do gets people killed. Dead people, in areas not in our coverage areas gets funding cut, unwanted regulatory scrutiny and leaves those left behind sans economic support.

[CAPPAO]

The problem is that CAP isn't proactive. See this verbatim account from the June 2008 BOG meeting minutes:

BoG Action
MR. ROWLAND/EX presented a slide briefing which reviewed recent and ongoing
missions/exercises; Cost-effective Force Multiplier; "A", "B" & "C" mission comparison
by category; and AF JROTC Orientation Flights.
In response to a question as to whether Civil Air Patrol voluntarily calls and offers help
following a known disaster/need or waits for the call from agencies needing volunteer
support that CAP can provide, Mr. Rowland responded that, in the past, CAP has
waited for the call. He added that management could get more involved and encourage
local units to initiate the offer of assistance. An added point was made for appropriate
publicity to help ensure awareness of CAP's availability and capability. Mr. Rowland
responded that CAP has a very good working relationship with the public affairs staff at
1st Air Force whose press releases always include the efforts of CAP.

I think it's interesting that Mr. Rowland thinks PR is the answer to this lack of foresight, and not better operational liaisons with authorizing agencies.

[Major Carrales]

The problem is that CAP isn't proactive. See this verbatim account from the June 2008 BOG meeting minutes:

BoG Action
MR. ROWLAND/EX presented a slide briefing which reviewed recent and ongoing
missions/exercises; Cost-effective Force Multiplier; “A”, “B” & “C” mission comparison
by category; and AF JROTC Orientation Flights.
In response to a question as to whether Civil Air Patrol voluntarily calls and offers help
following a known disaster/need or waits for the call from agencies needing volunteer
support that CAP can provide, Mr. Rowland responded that, in the past, CAP has
waited for the call. He added that management could get more involved and encourage
local units to initiate the offer of assistance. An added point was made for appropriate
publicity to help ensure awareness of CAP’s availability and capability. Mr. Rowland
responded that CAP has a very good working relationship with the public affairs staff at
1st Air Force whose press releases always include the efforts of CAP.

I think it's interesting that Mr. Rowland thinks PR is the answer to this lack of foresight, and not better operational liaisons with authorizing agencies.

The idea is to get "the word out" about CAP so that it can be utilized by various levels of government.   Our unit maintains a relationship with local governments, thus, they know who we are. This makes them likely to call us.

Rather than show up during a disaster out of the blue and saying "We're CAP, we are going to run this," we get a call from them saying "This is what we need, can you help us."  We then apply our resources, WING and REGIONAL resources if necessary; in an organized manner as part of a team effort.

It works best for all that way...1) CAP gets deployed, 2) Other agencies fill our GAPS, 3) we fill the gaps of other agencies and 4) the mission at hand is accomplished.

[Rotorhead]

You people need to watch what you are writing on here.  Much of this is bad form.

You can't expect to keep it all sunshine and roses on a public forum. If you want to keep people from speaking their minds in public, then you need to make the board password-protected and keep it secured.

[DNall]

Once again, we flew I believe six sorties in search of this Aircraft on the US side. Mexico had their op on the other side & it was coordinated at high levels. CAP is not an independent agency. We are (particularly in this circumstance) the Aux of the AF. That means they say AF is involved in the search, but it's actually CAP out in the field. That's why we exist, to do their work for them & let them take the credit. That's what they fund us for. If you want better publicity then that, you need to get a squared away MIO to churn up special interest stories.

[Flying Pig]

Very cool then.  So all of this "Woe is me, We dont ever get to play" nonsense was unfounded.

[Rotorhead]

If you want better publicity then that, you need to get a squared away MIO to churn up special interest stories.

Exactly.

[CAPPAO]

So then the point, as Mr. Rowland is quoted saying at the June BOG meeting, is that CAP needs to do a better job ensuring that its clients, and especially AFRCC and USAF, remember to include us on the list of supporting agencies when information is released. And having made this point, then I'd like to suggest that if this isn't accomplished for every mission it's as though we never participated at all, because in the end it is what's written in the newspaper and posted on their web sites that the public and Congress remember. And as far as this high profile mission, because we weren't listed we don't get the credit. A bigger case in point are the disaster relief missions for which the Red Cross and Salvation Army, among other agencies, are getting public recognition, but CAP isn't. In the long run, this will hurt us.

[DNall]

Again, we are not an independent organization like the red cross or salvation army. We are an adjunct of the Air Force. We exist (in major part) to do work for which the AF gets the public relations credit. That is part of our purpose for being.

[CAPPAO]

Again, we are not an independent organization like the red cross or salvation army. We are an adjunct of the Air Force. We exist (in major part) to do work for which the AF gets the public relations credit. That is part of our purpose for being.

So let me see if I have this right.

You're saying the purpose of CAP is to do work for the AF and they get the credit?

[Eclipse]

You're saying the purpose of CAP is to do work for the AF and they get the credit?

You were right on the first part.

Who gets the "credit" is not important.

Want credit?  Click here:  http://tinyurl.com/6bxwlb

[Major Carrales]

You people need to watch what you are writing on here.  Much of this is bad form.

You can't expect to keep it all sunshine and roses on a public forum. If you want to keep people from speaking their minds in public, then you need to make the board password-protected and keep it secured.

No excuse, people need to monitor more their words on here.  If loose lips sink ships, then from hence has gone down a full fleet.

[PHall]

You people need to watch what you are writing on here.  Much of this is bad form.

You can't expect to keep it all sunshine and roses on a public forum. If you want to keep people from speaking their minds in public, then you need to make the board password-protected and keep it secured.

No excuse, people need to monitor more their words on here.  If loose lips sink ships, then from hence has gone down a full fleet.

It's a public forum Joe, if you think someone has posted something out of line then click that "Report to moderator" button and make your case to them.

[Major Carrales]

You people need to watch what you are writing on here.  Much of this is bad form.

You can't expect to keep it all sunshine and roses on a public forum. If you want to keep people from speaking their minds in public, then you need to make the board password-protected and keep it secured.

No excuse, people need to monitor more their words on here.  If loose lips sink ships, then from hence has gone down a full fleet.

It's a public forum Joe, if you think someone has posted something out of line then click that "Report to moderator" button and make your case to them.

PHall,

I, nor any of us, should not have to "run to momma" to get people to monitor their own writings on here and prevent potential adverse effects.  Everyone here should be the steward of their own words and not bequeath unto CAP the negative inheritance of thoughtless posts.

All that should happen is one need remind a person in a tone as I have to "watch what one writes on here because much of it can be bad form."  If honorable, a person is honor bound to at least curb their written words infavor of more tempered thought...not bad temper.

Is that too much to ask?  If so, then there is little honor among threadsters here.  I think we all deserve to be treated with at least that honor and respect as CAP Officers and Cadets.  Am I wrong?  I should like to think we can do that as part of the core values of integrity and respect.  Unless those remain but "words," instead of application via action.

[JayT]

Again, we are not an independent organization like the red cross or salvation army. We are an adjunct of the Air Force. We exist (in major part) to do work for which the AF gets the public relations credit. That is part of our purpose for being.

So let me see if I have this right.

You're saying the purpose of CAP is to do work for the AF and they get the credit?

Dude, if you think credit is that important, you're in the wrong line of work.

I haven't seen you say word one about the success of the operation, or that your heart goes out to the grieving familes. You're worried about CAP not getting quoted in some news article.

To me, this is another example of us wanting to have our cake and eat it to. Some of us want to be all hoorah about being part of the Air Force Team, but when it comes to getting our name in the paper, we're not happy with just 'The Air Force conducted the search.'

The wreck was found. The families got closure. Everyone went home in one form or another. Carry on.

[CAPPAO]

You people need to watch what you are writing on here.  Much of this is bad form.

Sparky - As long as no one is profane, making a personal attack, or divulging classified information then there is no reason not to have a mature discussion about any topic of interest.

[CAPPAO]

You're saying the purpose of CAP is to do work for the AF and they get the credit?

You were right on the first part.

Who gets the "credit" is not important.

Want credit?  Click here:  http://tinyurl.com/6bxwlb

Wow, what a funny guy you are. You crack me up.

[CAPPAO]

Again, we are not an independent organization like the red cross or salvation army. We are an adjunct of the Air Force. We exist (in major part) to do work for which the AF gets the public relations credit. That is part of our purpose for being.

So let me see if I have this right.

You're saying the purpose of CAP is to do work for the AF and they get the credit?

Actually, I am in the absolute best line of work, which is publicizing the good works of CAP members. Unfortunately, my job os made harder by those in the organization who just don't get it, specifically; our funding is dependent on our reputation, our mission assignments are dependent on our reputation, our recruitment is dependent on our reputation, and a large part of our retention is dependent on our reputation. And...our reputation is solely managed by PAOs!

Dude, if you think credit is that important, you're in the wrong line of work.

I haven't seen you say word one about the success of the operation, or that your heart goes out to the grieving familes. You're worried about CAP not getting quoted in some news article.

To me, this is another example of us wanting to have our cake and eat it to. Some of us want to be all hoorah about being part of the Air Force Team, but when it comes to getting our name in the paper, we're not happy with just 'The Air Force conducted the search.'

The wreck was found. The families got closure. Everyone went home in one form or another. Carry on.

[DNall]

You can fix your quote box there, but whatever.

PA is a big deal, and our PAOs/MIOs by all means need to be out there in force pushing our image. However, the fact is AF conducted that search. It doesn't matter that the tool they used was CAP or a private contractor or some particular AF unit - it's all the AF, and that's how it should & does appear on the official record of involved agencies. However, that is a great opportunity to publicize a feel-good story about CAP. An MIO should have that waiting in a box ready to go when the opportunity presents itself.

I can tell you right now we're out doing all kinds of food/water/ice distribution in the wake of IKE & we're getting that special interest story in the media as well as a lot of new members volunteering next to us at those POD sites.

[Eclipse]

I would also counter that while Public Affairs is important, it does not equal our reputation where it is most important - with agency heads and liaisons who provide us the work.

We don't get missions from the Yellow Pages or classified ads

Mission tasking, especially local DR and similar work, comes from the relationships formed by Unit Commanders and ESO's with their local municipal/county/state officials and EMAs.

PA's primary importance is in making the general public aware of CAP for recruiting and general support, and hopefully to limit the explanatory conversations when we show up for the CAPAbilities meetings.

[DNall]

Mission tasking, especially local DR and similar work, comes from the relationships formed by Unit Commanders and ESO's with their local municipal/county/state officials and EMAs.

And WG level for state, including legislative efforts; and national level with fed agencies... same sort of relationship building, and frankly best built thru practicing together like we'd want to fight together later.

[Major Carrales]

Mission tasking, especially local DR and similar work, comes from the relationships formed by Unit Commanders and ESO's with their local municipal/county/state officials and EMAs.

And WG level for state, including legislative efforts; and national level with fed agencies... same sort of relationship building, and frankly best built thru practicing together like we'd want to fight together later.

Again, this was the crux of the 2007 Public Affairs Academy in Atlanta, Georgia.  It was too bad that the only thing people chose to talk about here was ridicule of the new tagline and general negativity (likely the result of the then latest scandal effecting CAP).

[DNall]

strength thru adversity my friend.

This isn't an interview with national new media. It's a free-for-all (within reason) discussion by/for CAP members, which some other people happen upon from time to time.