Fastest Completion of Cadet Program?

[schloonk]

I am a C/MSgt and am currently eligible to promote every 28 days due to AFJROTC. I've only been in the program seven months and I plan on promoting all the way to the Spaatz. Out of curiosity, what's the shortest time it took a cadet to reach the Spaatz? Theoretically, the shortest time would be 21 months (16 achievements plus 5 milestones, one per month) with advanced promotion.

[lordmonar]

I don't know if anyone has kept that sort of data.

Spaatz's are so rare the no one really cares about who was the fastest.

And there are a lot of people out there that would actively slow down anyone who seemed to be burning through the program.

Good luck. 

Don't slow down once you get to the officer ranks.   Knock out those SDAs and keep taking your tests.  Keep up your PT.

The SDA's seem to be the biggest hold up for officer progression (and I don't know why).
Following that is finding time to study for YOUR tests while doing all your leadership jobs.
And finally.....it seems that the PT test is the big killer for those taking their Spaatz.

Good luck.

[Garibaldi]

I don't know if anyone has kept that sort of data.

Spaatz's are so rare the no one really cares about who was the fastest.

And there are a lot of people out there that would actively slow down anyone who seemed to be burning through the program.

Good luck. 

Don't slow down once you get to the officer ranks.   Knock out those SDAs and keep taking your tests.  Keep up your PT.

The SDA's seem to be the biggest hold up for officer progression (and I don't know why).
Following that is finding time to study for YOUR tests while doing all your leadership jobs.
And finally.....it seems that the PT test is the big killer for those taking their Spaatz.

Good luck.

Gee, try telling that to my 14 year old Earhart cadet. She was so good, she aced everything, first time, every time. All tests 100%, all PFT maxed, all SDAs well written and thought out. Promoted every 2 months on the dot...almost as if she had help....from her mother....who was the DCC....and also assistant testing officer....

Can you tell I'm STILL bitter about that, after 10 years?

[ironputts]

I am a proponent of pacing yourself to get the maximum experience at each phase. I have had several cadets do well and were promoted quickly but didn't get the time experience which they admitted could have made the journey better. Each promotion should bring you to different responsibilities in the flight and each brings growth and understanding. I applaud those that advance in rank quickly and hope they still gain the experience necessary to lead in the future!

[PHall]

Any particular reason you "feel the need for speed" in your promotions?
Because it's not a race...

[Mitchell 1969]

I remember a long-ago Spaatz awardee who got it when he was 15. I think the minimum entry age then was 13, so it took him +- 2 years.

My reaction when I heard about it was "Poor guy.  He can't even drive yet.  What's he going to do in his cadet career for the next 3-6 years?

[jdh]

Any particular reason you "feel the need for speed" in your promotions?
Because it's not a race...

If he has the ability to promote every month through Spaatz then he has completed 4 years of JROTC (highschool) and is probably trying to finish before he ages out of the CP.

[AirAux]

IIRC, it is two (2) years of ROTC to promote monthly..

[jeders]

IIRC, it is two (2) years of ROTC to promote monthly..

Only through the completion of phase 2. In order to do that all the way through Spaatz, you need 4 years JROTC.

[ALORD]

At one point, the joining age could be affected by having completed an ( Elementary School) grade so we had 13 Y/O cadets. At that time ( When my son and daughter-law, a mating pair of Spaatzen) could take all academic tests ahead of promotions, and just wait for T.I.G to take the PT and Squadron requirements, we had some very young Spaatz cadets around. I was always irritated by those cadets who wanted to earn the Spaatz, but waited until they were 20 years, and 360 days old before they really cracked the books and wanted to take the test...it's like those kids in their Senior year of High School who decide they want to attend a Service Academy but have stood around with their thumbs otherwise engaged until the very last moment; That moment most people would characterize as "Too darn late".  I wish someone had records of personal Spaatzen history ( Well, there is of course, a secret cabal of Spaatzen, but you would have to have the challenge coin and know the secret handshake to get that information, or perhaps be a member of the Trilateral Commission or the Bohemian Society) In CAWG, it seemed for many years the real "Brass Ring" was to serve as the Encampment Commander, and be a self-appointed Colonel for life. When more Cadets showed interest in earning the Spaatz, that fell away rapidly. My older CAP friends tell me of the glory days when the CAWG encampment had a "Sergeant Major", since converted to a more USAF sounding grade, but with the "Temporary-Grade" thing disallowed ( The regulation changes and letters came with an asterisk and red underlining, in large font, "California, this means you!"warning)  I don't know what they call it now. I think that Cadets come into the program for a variety of reasons, all, or most at least, valid. One particular Cadet-type comes in with the Colorado trade-school as their long term goal, and their sole focus is to earn the Spaatz Award. The Air Force Academy does not care if you were a C/ Lt and saved a truck-load of children from a burning bus: If you don't check off "Spaatz Award" checked  on your application, your Cadet experience just means that you will be better at marching and saluting then many of your brethren. ( For those of you who enlist in USAF, you may wish to consider not mentioning your CAP career; Anything you say can and will be used against you) I don't think there is anything wrong with the Cadet who focuses on his USAF-Officer career from day one with CAP. They may lose out on doing a lot of activities, but they have a lot to balance with School, CAP, finding a Sponsor, etc.  A Cadet who enters CAP and progresses in earnest can learn a lot of things in CAP that will actually be useful in later life ( For those of you in Public Schools, sorry, but most of what they feed you won't have much real-world application) And a Cadet who is "just okay" will still benefit enormously from the lessons learned in CAP, even if they never "Completed" ( A real misnomer) the Cadet Program by earning the Spaatz award. Most outside  people don't know what it is, and at best, will consider it to be like the "Eagle Scout" Award, an enormously disproportionate comparison in my opinion.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That rant is so off base...

[NIN]

That rant is so off base...

Allen hasn't met a carriage return he could agree with in years...

[Mitchell 1969]

In CAWG, it seemed for many years the real "Brass Ring" was to serve as the Encampment Commander, and be a self-appointed Colonel for life.

I categorically challenge all of that and ask that you either cite a relevant source or withdraw the statement.

I have known many of the CAWG encampment cadet commanders going back to the 1960's and until the "discretionary colonels" practice stopped.

(Until 1964 or 1965, C/Lt Col and C/Col were "encampment only" grades by regulation, throughout CAP. True, they did continue in CA after that. I personally stopped the practice in 1983, as Commandant of Cadets, by refusing to appoint a non-Spaatz holder as an "acting C/Col." [That same cadet was appointed as C/CC in 1984, as a C-Col - but he had the Spaatz Award by then] I believe all encampment C/CCs from 1983 on used their actual grade - any colonels were Spaatz cadets, as far as I know).

At any rate, whether by regulation or under admittedly shady  "California rules," NONE of the C/Cols were "self appointed." NONE of them held the grade "for life." To the contrary - they could not wear it until reporting in and had to remove it before clearing the facility at the end of encampment.

Again, if you have sources that prove otherwise, please cite them or retract your claims.

[ALORD]

Do you challenge only the line you quoted, or the entire response? ( You will note that I put these statements in the past tense)I think if you talk to Ned Lee, he should be able to verify that we had a slow period in Spaatz awards, say in the period between 1999 and 2003. Your own statements identify that you personally were aware of the problem ( Mens rea)  Would you really like me to name the Cadet Encampment Commander who wore Col "flare" for ages after encampment without having actually won the Award? ( Or the Cadet who showed up drunk on MTV, drunk, the former cadet who appeared in Maxim in "uniform"? How about the Cadet who showed up in a homemade Senior member Uniform and was pictured on the CAWG newspaper? I think not, certainly not in a public format ( I can almost hear the keyboards Googling "Maxim naked Cadet" from here)  The discretionary grade was one slight, but significant, violation of CAPR's. Discretionary grade was practiced at many levels in the Cadet encampment C.O.C., not just the Commander slot.  My view is that many "Wing Cadets" felt that the encampment commander slot was a bigger goal than the Spaatz award, a mistake rectified by market forces. Naturally, the phrase " Self-appointed C/Col for life" was tongue in cheek. Any Cadet rank or grade stops sooner or later, without death being a  prerequisite. I am delighted to read that you tried to stop the practice of Discretionary Grade. But it was in practice long after the 1980's in CAWG, and CAWG was quite obdurate in stopping the practice. If you wish, I will name at least one Cadet who continued on as a "Colonel" after the encampment  but never achieved the award in the 2000's, who may have contributed to NHQ's dropping a house on CAWG, but I won't do so in a public forum. To clarify further, I refer to the "self-appointment" to be the period following Encampment, even though the practice of Temporary Grade was in practice in CAWG until well past Y2K. I was not in CAP in 1964 ( Few five-year-old children were:) ) So I can't speak to what the regs were at that time, or how they were implemented. I personally have nothing against having discretionary grade in principal. The right grade for the right slot clarifies the chain of cadet command, it was just impermissible under CAPR's.

My background statements on the matter of Spaatz progression were meant to be just that: Background. It goes to the question of how fast a new cadet can "complete" ( Arrrghhhh!) the cadet program. issues like 13 Y/O cadets and having a larger number of Job openings in the Service Academies due to effectively, to a continuous state of undeclared, and escalating wars, makes the desire to earn the Spaatz award a more desirous goal for many cadets, and I a not shocked or offended that a Cadet is "ticket punching" by playing the fast-track game to that goal line. Using the JROTC exemption and a laser-like focus on accomplishing the goal is certainly not a bad thing, and demonstrates a degree of tactical thinking that I am proud to see in a Cadet! Ths Spaatz ring is more golden than brass, and earning it before HS graduation is optimal, strategically, but tough to do.

I also think that a proper "rant" should be carried out in capital letters, don't you? 

[ALORD]

That rant is so off base...

Allen hasn't met a carriage return he could agree with in years...

Show me proof! I demand answers, photographic evidence or a full retraction and seppuku in the public square! Actually, I agree with almost everything on Captalk, since most posts are questions, and questions are always beneficial! I do admit to having opinions and even biases, and I am an admitted bigot on many issues ( Freedom: Good!, Communism: Bad!) The Global CAP powerbase often views Captalk as subversive, but it is an invaluable filter against the often "creatively interpreted" actions of our NHQ and various other echelons of Command ( Or in Air Force parlance, "Management" ) If no one thanks you for maintaining CAPTALK, let me do so now: You are a great American and a credit to our organization.

[Holding Pattern]

Somebody buy this man an enter key!

[PHall]

Alan, did you forget to take your meds again?

[ALORD]

Yeah, your momma ran out and I had to find a new dealer...

[SarDragon]

Guys, don't encourage him, or be the straight person.

[C/ID-073]

From personal experience, I've seen a lot of cadets who promote as fast as they can (and until I got my Mitchell I was one of those cadets) and I've learned that I don't think it's good for cadets to promote that fast. Because you will have a huge high ranking cadet in your squadron, that you don't want to give a position because their maturity hasn't caught up with their rank. I'm not staying it's bad to promote, but you have to pace yourself at a reasonable level. If you do promote that fast, then you need to prepare to take on some major leadership changes as you go. You can't be stuck in the mindset of a staff sergeant when you are a major, because then that only effects you negatively. And in most the cases I've seen with really really young cadets that are super high ranking, nobody respects them (they just respect their rank) because they can't work with them because they don't have the maturity to match their grade. So just be careful if you plan on promoting that fast.
Good luck!
Respectfully,
C/1stLt. Kubik, CAP

[Airplane girl]

From personal experience, I've seen a lot of cadets who promote as fast as they can (and until I got my Mitchell I was one of those cadets) and I've learned that I don't think it's good for cadets to promote that fast. Because you will have a huge high ranking cadet in your squadron, that you don't want to give a position because their maturity hasn't caught up with their rank. I'm not staying it's bad to promote, but you have to pace yourself at a reasonable level. If you do promote that fast, then you need to prepare to take on some major leadership changes as you go. You can't be stuck in the mindset of a staff sergeant when you are a major, because then that only effects you negatively. And in most the cases I've seen with really really young cadets that are super high ranking, nobody respects them (they just respect their rank) because they can't work with them because they don't have the maturity to match their grade. So just be careful if you plan on promoting that fast.
Good luck!
Respectfully,
C/1stLt. Kubik, CAP

I agree with this completely. I'm pretty young for my grade (14 year old Chief), and I'm planning on promoting less quickly in the future. The worst experience that I had in CAP was when I promoted way too quickly to C/MSgt, and could barely be a good C/MSgt. And then some people in my squadron decided it would be a good idea to make me cadet commander. That went about as well as you might think.

And then there's the 13 year old Chief who basically sounds like Garibaldi's amazingly perfect Earhart cadet, except his dad is the commander. And he doesn't know how to wear his uniform. No one respects his grade, at all. Whenever he shows up every 2 months to promote, he's basically treated like a C/Amn. I'll probably still be bitter about him 10 years from now.

Anyway, now I know that having experience and taking care of your cadets is lot more important than promoting if you want to be respected. Being a Chief (Or Lieutenant, or Colonel, or any other grade) doesn't make you a good leader. So now I think I want to wait a while to get my Mitchell, so I can have experience so that my rank will mean more than which insignia I wear.

[lordmonar]

Reducing the speed of promotions due to maturity and leadership skills......is the job of the Cadet Programs Officer and the Command.

No one should be self restricting themselves.

Go at your "best" speed.  A speed that balances all your life choices and obligations.   That is don't put off school work to study for a CAP promotion.  Don't always over look boy scouts, sports or church groups because you "have to" dedicate all your time to CAP.

Having said that.

Every cadet should be following the cadet oath to "advance my education and training rapidly".   So if you push yourself to promote every 8 weeks....good on you!  Keep it up!  Don't worry about promoting TOO fast......we CP officers will let you know if you need to spend some more time in grade before moving on.

[ALORD]

From personal experience, I've seen a lot of cadets who promote as fast as they can (and until I got my Mitchell I was one of those cadets) and I've learned that I don't think it's good for cadets to promote that fast. Because you will have a huge high ranking cadet in your squadron, that you don't want to give a position because their maturity hasn't caught up with their rank. I'm not staying it's bad to promote, but you have to pace yourself at a reasonable level. If you do promote that fast, then you need to prepare to take on some major leadership changes as you go. You can't be stuck in the mindset of a staff sergeant when you are a major, because then that only effects you negatively. And in most the cases I've seen with really really young cadets that are super high ranking, nobody respects them (they just respect their rank) because they can't work with them because they don't have the maturity to match their grade. So just be careful if you plan on promoting that fast.
Good luck!
Respectfully,
C/1stLt. Kubik, CAP

Lt Kubik,

I like your attitude! I am sure from the perspective of a C/Ofc, you realize just how much there is to learn in the intermediate levels ( Okay, let me say it right out: Sergeants have more fun!) In our squadron, we found that taking the more advanced Cadet Officers and placing them into a "consulting" role was very helpful. Frankly, most Cadet Officers who are the fast-track types are often busy with extra-curricular activities besides CAP. On the other hand, many of them know the Cadet Program minutia and movers and shakers to a degree that many S/M's ( Who were not cadets in their youth) can never achieve. A Cadet Major can do a great job of talking down a panicked cadet or parent by walking them through procedures and expectations in a step-by-step fashion. If they are interested in furthering their CAP career as a S/M, it's a great opportunity to see what all those mysterious old people on the other side of the room do! A savvy Cadet Officer quickly learns which S/M's are just bookmarks with a job title, and also identify those who are worth emulating ( And in some cases, avoid emulating).

p.s. I Love PHALL and just josh him. We have known each other since we ( allegedly) ran commo wire between all the Encampment dorms to build a temporary PA system and nearly faced a hideous death  at the hands of the ANG facilities guy and his henchmen. We don't always agree, but who does? ( Except two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?) Painters tape saved our bacon.

[Airplane girl]

Reducing the speed of promotions due to maturity and leadership skills......is the job of the Cadet Programs Officer and the Command.

Sir, it's great that your unit is run that way. But there are some units, like my old one, where they don't always do that.

[lordmonar]

Reducing the speed of promotions due to maturity and leadership skills......is the job of the Cadet Programs Officer and the Command.

Sir, it's great that your unit is run that way. But there are some units, like my old one, where they don't always do that.

Hmmmmmmm........how do I address this?   Yep it is true there are a lot of units out there that don't do it right.
But you and I cannon run our units and our program based on the failings on other units.

Some CP officer out there is pencil whipping tests and other things for the Little Darling......yep that happens.   But I'm not gonna change my way of doing business to because of it.

If you as a cadet want to slow down.....by all means do so.   But in general I don't encourage my cadets to slow down.....not unless I see a need for it....and I will let them know when that happens.

The other side of the coin of course is rank stagnation.  When a cadet starts sitting on a rank for more then six months....something is wrong.  Remember that the rules are built with the idea that a cadet "should" advance at least twice a year.

So somewhere between every 8 weeks and every 26 weeks is the idea promotion rate for cadets.

[Garibaldi]

From personal experience, I've seen a lot of cadets who promote as fast as they can (and until I got my Mitchell I was one of those cadets) and I've learned that I don't think it's good for cadets to promote that fast. Because you will have a huge high ranking cadet in your squadron, that you don't want to give a position because their maturity hasn't caught up with their rank. I'm not staying it's bad to promote, but you have to pace yourself at a reasonable level. If you do promote that fast, then you need to prepare to take on some major leadership changes as you go. You can't be stuck in the mindset of a staff sergeant when you are a major, because then that only effects you negatively. And in most the cases I've seen with really really young cadets that are super high ranking, nobody respects them (they just respect their rank) because they can't work with them because they don't have the maturity to match their grade. So just be careful if you plan on promoting that fast.
Good luck!
Respectfully,
C/1stLt. Kubik, CAP

I agree with this completely. I'm pretty young for my grade (14 year old Chief), and I'm planning on promoting less quickly in the future. The worst experience that I had in CAP was when I promoted way too quickly to C/MSgt, and could barely be a good C/MSgt. And then some people in my squadron decided it would be a good idea to make me cadet commander. That went about as well as you might think.

And then there's the 13 year old Chief who basically sounds like Garibaldi's amazingly perfect Earhart cadet, except his dad is the commander. And he doesn't know how to wear his uniform. No one respects his grade, at all. Whenever he shows up every 2 months to promote, he's basically treated like a C/Amn. I'll probably still be bitter about him 10 years from now.

Anyway, now I know that having experience and taking care of your cadets is lot more important than promoting if you want to be respected. Being a Chief (Or Lieutenant, or Colonel, or any other grade) doesn't make you a good leader. So now I think I want to wait a while to get my Mitchell, so I can have experience so that my rank will mean more than which insignia I wear.

waiwaiwaiwait....he just shows up every 2 months to promote? Wow. I'd avoid the Christmas rush and start being bitter now. It's amazing that his father allows this behavior. I bet there's something in the files that shows he is an active participant, like the sign in sheets shows he's there every meeting. 

Not my place to point that out, though.

[THRAWN]

I might be misremembering this...like I am about my time in SEAL Team 32 during Operation Desert Nam...but wasn't there at one time a rule against parents being in direct line of supervision? I know it was practiced in most of my early squadrons, but thought that it was a written rule....

[lordmonar]

Only for testing proctors.....and even then it is a very strong "should not" and not an absolute WILL NOT IIRC.

The only place that specifically forbids it in a quick search of 50-5 and 52-16 is The Spaatz Testing officer can't be related to the cadet or from the same unit.

[ALORD]

I don't think there is such a rule...Too many S/M's come from the parental S/M supply side. It can be very trying to have Parents "advocating" for "their" Cadet's special interests. It would be an ideal "Best Practice" even if it's not a formal rule. Hey, didn't you save my life in Cambodia on that secret Christmas mission with John Kerry and Dick Marcinko providing cover fire? Oh wait, I was in Elementary school then...

[Airplane girl]

Hmmmmmmm........how do I address this?   Yep it is true there are a lot of units out there that don't do it right.
But you and I cannon run our units and our program based on the failings on other units.

Some CP officer out there is pencil whipping tests and other things for the Little Darling......yep that happens.   But I'm not gonna change my way of doing business to because of it.

If you as a cadet want to slow down.....by all means do so.   But in general I don't encourage my cadets to slow down.....not unless I see a need for it....and I will let them know when that happens.

The other side of the coin of course is rank stagnation.  When a cadet starts sitting on a rank for more then six months....something is wrong.  Remember that the rules are built with the idea that a cadet "should" advance at least twice a year.

Sir, I've definitely seen the other side of that coin too. Like that one cadet who was either C/AB or a C/Amn for 6 years. Cadets should promote eventually. There should be a balance between having enough experience and maturity to do well in your grade and promoting enough that you're being challenged more and learning new things.

waiwaiwaiwait....he just shows up every 2 months to promote? Wow. I'd avoid the Christmas rush and start being bitter now. It's amazing that his father allows this behavior. I bet there's something in the files that shows he is an active participant, like the sign in sheets shows he's there every meeting. 

Not my place to point that out, though.

I am definitely bitter now, and I'll probably still be bitter about it in 50 years. I don't think anyone signed in for him every meeting. Although, I never checked, so who knows? It could've happened. This commander did a few other questionable things to make sure his special little snowflake cadet was promoted, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, it's not like anyone's going to be asking if he was an active participant during the promotion boards, led by the squadron commander. If there are going to be any rules about parents who are commanders, I think there should at least be one preventing parents from being on the promotion boards for their kids. It's a lot harder to give a cadet accurate feedback when their dad and your squadron commander is there.

[lordmonar]

On the other hand.... Sometimes parents in that position hold their kids to a higher standard just to off set the appearance of favoritism.  I know this happened to me in the Boy Scouts when my father was scout master.   So it goes both ways.   

The key is integrity.   And some people got it and some don't. 

The other key is to really understand the standards.    I see generally that CP officers have a higher standard for cadet SNCOs then they do for cadet officers and that's a little backwards in the cadet program.   

[Holding Pattern]

If there are going to be any rules about parents who are commanders, I think there should at least be one preventing parents from being on the promotion boards for their kids. It's a lot harder to give a cadet accurate feedback when their dad and your squadron commander is there.

I just assumed that was a rule already. At least every squadron I've been in functioned that way, where people with conflicts recused themselves from boards/committees...

[lordmonar]

If there are going to be any rules about parents who are commanders, I think there should at least be one preventing parents from being on the promotion boards for their kids. It's a lot harder to give a cadet accurate feedback when their dad and your squadron commander is there.

I just assumed that was a rule already. At least every squadron I've been in functioned that way, where people with conflicts recused themselves from boards/committees...

Not a reg.....but a good rule of thumb IMHO.   But I agree with not making it a hard and fast rule.   Some of the smaller squadrons would struggle if that were a rule.   

On the concept that there are people pencil whipping their snowflake through the program.......well that's just oversight.   Wing/Group should be looking out for that and stopping it when it happens.   But that's true for most of CAP's problems.