Would this be permitted for a CAP Cadet?

[JeffDG]

Caption:

Corporal Madison McKay from 365 Lloyd ''Sparky'' Ament Royal Canadian Air Cadets Squadron, sits silently by a tombstone during the 70th Anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy ceremony at the Bény-sur-Mer Canadian War Cemetery in Bény-sur-Mer, France on June 5, 2014.

Photo: MCpl Marc-Andre Gaudreault, Canadian Forces Combat Camera

I think it's a great and poignant photo, but I don't think a CAP Cadet could ever do the same, could they?

[BHartman007]

I'm slow. What couldn't a CAP cadet do?

[JeffDG]

I'm slow. What couldn't a CAP cadet do?

Wear the uniform in France.

[BHartman007]

I'm slow. What couldn't a CAP cadet do?

Wear the uniform in France.

Ohhh. I get you now. My first thought would be no, but then again our WWII cemeteries over there aren't France So I dunno.

[abdsp51]

There are US military cemetaries in Europe and especially in France.  Wear of the CAP uniform overseas is limited to US bases with chartered units.  Wear is limited to rhe vase itself and wear off base is upto the host installation CC.

[MSG Mac]

The cemeteries are considered US territory.

[SarDragon]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

[lordmonar]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

[abdsp51]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation. 

[lordmonar]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation.

I was thinking more of "cadet from the states making a pilgrimage" sort of thing.

[abdsp51]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation.

I was thinking more of "cadet from the states making a pilgrimage" sort of thing.

Gotcha, though that is an expensive trip, especially when there are local cemetaries could benefit from it.

[JeffDG]

Not to speak for anyone else, but a trip to Juno Beach is on my bucket list for sure.

[MSG Mac]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

Every nation has a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) which says what is and sn't allowed. If a CAP member shows up in uniformed/she would be presumed to fall under that agreement.

[SarDragon]

There are no longer any US forces/bases in France, since 1967. That would preclude a SOFA, IMHO.

[PHall]

There are no longer any US forces/bases in France, since 1967. That would preclude a SOFA, IMHO.

They're a part of NATO and there is a SOFA for NATO.

[abdsp51]

CAP doesn't fall under SOFA.

[SarDragon]

CAP doesn't fall under SOFA.

Indirectly, they do. I was in an overseas squadron, as was Pat Harris, and SOFA is mentioned in the OS unit reg.

5. Membership Restrictions. Membership in overseas squadrons will be restricted to those individuals meeting the membership eligibility requirements of CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership, and who are covered under the provisions of the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA). (Note: Cadets who are living overseas at a location that is not near an Air Force installation or are not eligible for membership in overseas units, may be eligible to continue in the Cadet Program through independent study. See CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management, for details.)

All that said, the OP's situation would not necessarily be dependent on membership in an OS unit.

[abdsp51]

/quote]

No CAP does not even indirectly.  SOFA cover the members of the armed forces, their dependents, and select

[abdsp51]

/quote]

No CAP does not even indirectly or directly.  SOFA cover the members of the armed forces, their dependents, and select civilians.  MSgt Harris's and your membership in an overseas unit were based upon your SOFA status due to being a member or the military.  A local national cannot join a OS CAP unit unless they fall under SOFA.  In fact an OS unit can only be there dependent upon the whim if the Wg CC.

[Mitchell 1969]

I'm not sure if the right question got asked. WOULD it be possible....or COULD it be possible. There are subtle differences.

Either way, the question is incomplete. From the limited facts given (essentially, the photo), we don't know if this was a Canadian cadet who decided to suit up and sit on a grave or if it was an organized event. For all we know, RCAC flew a plane load of them for D-Day ceremonies and specified that it would be in uniform. I know that the UK ATC has organized a few trips for cadets to visit the site of Stalag Luft III and, presumably, connected the dots and jumped through the hoops.

The cites from regs concerning overseas CAP squadrons are red herrings. It's entirely possible that CAP could make arrangements to bring cadets to other countries in uniform seperate and apart from any overseas squadron involvement.

FWIW, I wore uniforms on IACE twice, although long ago and there were no references to SOFA either time. Although, we were attached to RNZAF HQ for purposes of receiving mail. I forget how it was set up in Korea. But, both countries expressed preferences for us to be in uniform and CAP complied, even while uniforms were prohibited in other countries the same years.

On a side note - it used to be easier to "catch a ride" and turn it into an activity. New Zealand got into IACE UNOFFICIALLY at first when they sent aircraft to Lockheed in Burbank CA. They'd bring a few cadets to tour CA. On the way back, some CA cadets would go with them. A USAFR LtCol assigned to Wing CP had contacts in NZ and made a pitch for the deal.  NHQ even approved the IACE ribbon for it. Mid to late 1960's. Eventually, NZ joined IACE formally and other wings sent cadets there.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I'm not sure if the right question got asked. WOULD it be possible....or COULD it be possible. There are subtle differences.

Either way, the question is incomplete. From the limited facts given (essentially, the photo), we don't know if this was a Canadian cadet who decided to suit up and sit on a grave or if it was an organized event. For all we know, RCAC flew a plane load of them for D-Day ceremonies and specified that it would be in uniform. I know that the UK ATC has organized a few trips for cadets to visit the site of Stalag Luft III and, presumably, connected the dots and jumped through the hoops.

Check and check, from personal experience.  As another example, from as long as I can recall, the UK ATC have placed teams in the annual Nijmegan Marches during which they wear their unforms.  It's simply a matter of following the process, and a CAP visit would need only to do the same.  Lots of hoops for the first person to ask, and you'd need to be willing to be beaten back a few times because of the paperwork involved but if you thought it was worth it you'd stay the course.

Honestly....all this for what is actually a very nice and very poignant picture!

[BHartman007]

CAP doesn't fall under SOFA.

My tv remote fell under SOFA.

[Panzerbjorn]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation.

I was thinking more of "cadet from the states making a pilgrimage" sort of thing.

That's what IACE is for.

[lordmonar]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation.

I was thinking more of "cadet from the states making a pilgrimage" sort of thing.

That's what IACE is for.

No...it is not.

[LSThiker]

It is a nice picture in that it is well composed and has great light.  However, to me, it screams posed.  That causes me to lose my connection to it.  I dislike posed shots (except for the purpose of portraits obviously) as I feel it destroys the moment.

Interestingly, when I was younger, I was always taught to never walk with 6 feet of the headstone.  I am curious if this is a difference in culture, age, or what.

[Panzerbjorn]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation.

I was thinking more of "cadet from the states making a pilgrimage" sort of thing.

That's what IACE is for.

No...it is not.

Okay.....explain.

[68w20]

Permission would have to come from CAP NHQ, with possible coordination from the foreign government.

+1
I don't see why not.

The instruction is clear wear of the CAP uniform is prohibited without the approval of the wing commander of the host installation off the installation.

I was thinking more of "cadet from the states making a pilgrimage" sort of thing.

That's what IACE is for.

No...it is not.

Okay.....explain.

"The purpose of [IACEA] is to plan and run an annual, world-wide exchange for aviation-minded young people each July. Our members are drawn from 20 countries and include the Ghana National Cadet Corps, the Hong Kong Air Cadet Corps, the Turkish Aeronautical Association and the UK Air Cadet Organisation. Each year we give over 500 young people the opportunity to expand their horizons, experience different cultures and make life-long friendships."

http://www.iacea.com/

IACE is about interpersonal interaction between young, aviation-minded individuals from around the world.  Your description suggests that the intent is to let those same young people visit cool places and do cool things.  While that happens (it certainly did for me in the UK), it's not the primary focus.  Furthermore, we've already established that CAP Cadets participating in IACE do not (typically) wear USAF style uniforms. 

[Panzerbjorn]

Oh, y'all are still stuck on whether a cadet can wear USAF-style uniform.  I thought the question was about cadets making a pilgrimage to somewhere like France, which is what my IACE answer was regarding.

I was a Rotary Exchange Student to Japan in the early 90s.  Yes, Rotary had the whole intent and spirit of the exchange thing going on, but as a participant, the aim was to make that time overseas the most enriching and rewarding experience possible.  One always needs to be careful not to focus too much on the individual trees and forget to take in the forest.

[MHC5096]

From 1990 until 1993 when the BRAC closed Plattsburgh AFB, several of the units in the former Adirondack Group had regular exchanges with Royal Canadian Air Cadet units out of Ontario and Quebec. This ongoing program was coordinated through the Wing LO and the appropriate officials in the RCAF. The PAFB Wing Commander was exteremely supportive of the program. The Canadians would be quartered in the base dorms and meals were provided by one of the dining facilities. Likewise, PAFB provided buses and drivers to take our personnel north to the Canadian side of the border where we got the same treatment. Some of the activities included base tours, band competitions and color guard/drill team competitions. All activities were conducted in uniform. I still have a box of rank insignia and unit shoulder flashes packed away somewhere. Good times!

[Slim]

From 1990 until 1993 when the BRAC closed Plattsburgh AFB, several of the units in the former Adirondack Group had regular exchanges with Royal Canadian Air Cadet units out of Ontario and Quebec. This ongoing program was coordinated through the Wing LO and the appropriate officials in the RCAF. The PAFB Wing Commander was exteremely supportive of the program. The Canadians would be quartered in the base dorms and meals were provided by one of the dining facilities. Likewise, PAFB provided buses and drivers to take our personnel north to the Canadian side of the border where we got the same treatment. Some of the activities included base tours, band competitions and color guard/drill team competitions. All activities were conducted in uniform. I still have a box of rank insignia and unit shoulder flashes packed away somewhere. Good times!

Likewise, until a few years ago, Michigan Wing had a history of inviting Canadian air cadets and instructor cadre to our summer encampments.  That is until one of their officers got his RCAC involvement ended and chose not to share that with us for a couple of years.

[Mitchell 1969]

From 1990 until 1993 when the BRAC closed Plattsburgh AFB, several of the units in the former Adirondack Group had regular exchanges with Royal Canadian Air Cadet units out of Ontario and Quebec. This ongoing program was coordinated through the Wing LO and the appropriate officials in the RCAF. The PAFB Wing Commander was exteremely supportive of the program. The Canadians would be quartered in the base dorms and meals were provided by one of the dining facilities. Likewise, PAFB provided buses and drivers to take our personnel north to the Canadian side of the border where we got the same treatment. Some of the activities included base tours, band competitions and color guard/drill team competitions. All activities were conducted in uniform. I still have a box of rank insignia and unit shoulder flashes packed away somewhere. Good times!

Likewise, until a few years ago, Michigan Wing had a history of inviting Canadian air cadets and instructor cadre to our summer encampments.  That is until one of their officers got his RCAC involvement ended and chose not to share that with us for a couple of years.

We had two RCAC at the CAWG encampment in 1984. One was in consideration for "honor cadet." Somebody suggested that the Canadian cadet should be ineligible because he wasn't a CAP cadet. I engaged in a brief "cultural exchange" with that person and explained that, no, he wasn't CAP, but he was a cadet, was a member of his flight and had participated fully as a basic cadet, not as a guy in a different uniform just taking snapshots. Further, he had to do it all having to learn a new D&C system on a OJT basis. Point was taken and the RCAC guy was judged on his own merits, walking away with honor cadet.

Somewhere, buried in some drawer or cabinet at CW HQ there might even be the Canadian flag that we got for the color guard to carry at the Review.