Oregon Wing Purchases a Cessna 337

[bosshawk]

Now that I have your attention with the topic, let me refer you to a news article released over the Oregon Wing name to the effect that several ORWG members have purchased a Cessna 337(yes, a push-pull twin) for use in CAP missions.

Go to www.aero-news.net for 10 Mar 07 for all the interesting details.  Without knowing all of the details, I wonder if our masters at National have seen this article or know about the purchase.

To keep your blood pressures down, the title is misleading, but the article makes interesting reading.  Be curious as to the response from members of ORWG who regularly post here.

[lordmonar]

Try this link http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=8ddcb6cb-95bd-46d6-9595-f97ffbe7c812&Dynamic=1&Range=WEEK&FromDate=03%2F05%2F2007&ToDate=03%2F12%2F2007&Category=%2Findex.cfm

[bosshawk]

Patrick: thanks for the complete link: I am one of the world's worst computer people.  Knew that someone out there would know how to do just what you did.

[DNall]

There's a CAPBlog post & another thread on this already, somewhere aroud here.

Personally I don't much like the liberal use of "CAP" while soliciting for what is basically their private flying club, regardless of their stated motives. If they can't buy the thing thru CAP, then the CAP name should be nowhere near it.

[lordmonar]

There's a CAPBlog post & another thread on this already, somewhere aroud here.

Personally I don't much like the liberal use of "CAP" while soliciting for what is basically their private flying club, regardless of their stated motives. If they can't buy the thing thru CAP, then the CAP name should be nowhere near it.

Nothing like a bunch of volunteers getting the tools and training needed to do the job we are tasked to do!

The sad part is that it takes some sort of grass roots efforts to force the issue.

[RiverAux]

And exactly what tools did they get that CAP doesn't have access to or couldn't ask for money for?  The reason they didn't get activated had nothing to do with their equipment, it was because the Sheriff didn't ask for help.  That problem won't be solved by this action. 

[DNall]

The sadder thing would be when they've used CAP's name to get all these donations to their private enterprise, then get fed up w/ CAP & leave, keeping their cool airplane & toys that companies though they were giveing to CAP or at least to SaR work. So then these folks can turn to profit or sell the stuff or just play with it.

I got no problem with them going in together on a plane, or if they use that as member owned on CAP missions - hopefully it doesn't take hours off corp planes & lose them out of the area because of it. I got no problems with them raising money or asking for donations. What I do have a problem with is how liverally they've used the CAP name in this process, almost as though it is an official act, and certainly bearing on donors. If you can't do it right, don't do it!!! If CAP sucks & keeps you from doing something that would be good for everyone if you could just bend the rules or your integrity for a few minutes... don't do it! You know as well as I do they shouldn't be using the CAP name in this process, that's all I ask. I don't know, if I were a local Gp CC worried about losing a plane or two cause of these guys cowboying off in their own direction, I might have some more concerns, but from afar it's jsut the name.

[Chris Jacobs]

I didn't quite finish the article, i have school to go to, but i will say that most of your guy's concerns have been addressed.  These guys are not cowboys and are very good members.  I know most of the guys in the article and they are doing all of this for the good of CAP.  The key benefit that we are getting with this ability is to work with the coast guard.  Unless you have two engines the coast guard wont call you out to sea.  This air plane will be allowed to go a ways out to see and support the coast guard.  I think this is a great opportunity for CAP.

As far as them forming the charity thing or what ever it is called, it is also a good idea.  They are not just using it to collect money to support CAP but other flying activities that CAP doesn't do.  The key idea is mercy flights for people that are far away from treatments.  this is for people like cancer patients that need to go 6 hours to get treatments but are to weak to make the long trip by car.  They can fly them.  They are going to provide this service, from my knowledge, with the donations that they gather.

As long as the mission allows for a 182 or other cooperate aircraft they will be the first to be tasked.  this new air plane will only be used when specific missions call for it or if all of our planes are already being used.

I know more about this air plane if any one has any questions.  I have actually already seen it down at wing headquarters two weekends ago.

[A.Member]

I didn't have a chance to read the article real thoroughly (I'll go back and read it more closely later) but here a few of my initial comments:

1.  I applaud their initiative and apparent willingness to help/get involved.  The aircraft appears to be a private purchase, so I have no heatburn over that.  In addition, setting up private companies (although usually a non-profit) to acquire resources is not a new concept.  It's just one way for innovative people get the things they need.

2.  The title of the article is wrong.  This was a private acquisition, not a CAP corporate purchase.  This may be the fault of the writer but based on a few comments in the article, there is a bit of concern about the way these members want to swap in the term CAP when convenient.  The distinction needs to be more black and white than it is presented.

3.  Why did they feel the need to purchase their own aircraft?  They say they have access to the CAP 182.  Was there really a problem that needed to be solved here?  Actually, there is but I'll get to that in a minute. 

4.  Why a Skymaster?  By introducing another type aircraft, the Skymaster significantly limits the number of potential persons available to fly the airplane (assuming they were to allow other pilots to fly it - which may open another can of worms), as such they have also necessarily limited it's availability for mission use.  I suspect that when they say they "will be able to activate a search mission at any time it is requested" they are being rather optimistic - for a number of reasons.

5.  Probably the most significant observation, and this was pointed out earlier, this acquisition does nothing to solve the relationship issues that apparently exist at a local level.  They say they were contacted to assist in the Kim search but were unable to.  Contacted by whom?  The article indicates that neither the sheriff's department nor any other official agency request their assistance.  As such, I find this to be perhaps the most troubling component of the story and it's the real problem that needs to be addressed.  You can have all the fancy equipment you want but it does no one any good if the phone doesn't ring.

[lordmonar]

2.  Why did they feel the need to purchase their own aircraft?  They say they have access to the CAP 182.  Was there really a problem that needed to be solved here (actually, there is but I'll get to that in a minute)?  That said, why a Skymaster?  By introducing another type aircraft, the Skymaster significantly limits the number of potential persons available to fly the airplane (assuming they were to allow other pilots to fly it - which may open another can of worms), as such they have also limited it's availability for mission use.  I suspect that when they say they "will be able to activate a search mission at any time it is requested" they are being rather optimistic - for a number of reasons.

I think they need the Skymaster for it power, seats and extra weight capacity.  They had to purchase their own plane because they also want to purchase FLIR, since CAP is not buying them.  Being able to maintain enough pilots is not that hard.  It's calle recruiting and training.

4.  Probably the most significant observation, and this was pointed out earlier, this acquisition does nothing to solve the relationship issues that apparently exist at a local level.  They say they were contacted to assist in the Kim search but were unable to.  Contacted by whom?  The article indicates that neither the sheriff's department nor any other official agency request their assistance.  As such, I find this to be perhaps the most troubling component of the story and this is the real problem that needs to be addressed.  You can have all the equipment you want but it does no one any good if the phone doesn't ring.

It does help a little when you can bring more tools to the table.  Supposedly the Sherrif thought that helos would be a better platform for visual searches in mountainous terrain.  This way CAP can say they have a FLIR to assist in the search.  It is easer to convince someone you have the ability to do something when you have a neat gizmo to help you out.

[A.Member]

I think they need the Skymaster for it power, seats and extra weight capacity.  They had to purchase their own plane because they also want to purchase FLIR, since CAP is not buying them.  Being able to maintain enough pilots is not that hard.  It's calle recruiting and training.

Who's going to pay for it?  First, you have to get someone with a multi that's interested in spending the money to get check out in it...and stay current.  Then you have the crew to operate the "gizmos" you refer to.  All of this requires a level of proficiency. 

I hope they can make it work but it sounds like they only have 3 crew members right now (the 3 that formed the organization).  I'm not sure they ever have more crew members than that.  It'd be nice if I were wrong but I don't think I will be. 

It does help a little when you can bring more tools to the table.  Supposedly the Sherrif thought that helos would be a better platform for visual searches in mountainous terrain.  This way CAP can say they have a FLIR to assist in the search.  It is easer to convince someone you have the ability to do something when you have a neat gizmo to help you out.

We bring plenty of tools and capabilities to the table.  We do it all the time, around the country.  Some of us do it better than others.  It simply takes someone to go in and talk to local officials.   This clearly is a problem...and it is not solved by buying more stuff.

[lordmonar]

I think they need the Skymaster for it power, seats and extra weight capacity.  They had to purchase their own plane because they also want to purchase FLIR, since CAP is not buying them.  Being able to maintain enough pilots is not that hard.  It's calle recruiting and training.

Who's going to pay for it?  First, you have to get someone with a multi that's interested in spending the money to fly it.  Then you have the crew.  All of this requires a level of proficiency.  I hope they can make it work but it sounds likte they only have 3 guys right now.  I'm not sure they ever have more crew members than that.  It'd be nice if I were wrong but I don't think I will be. 

Well they are going to pay for it themselves through donations to the company they have set up.  At least that is what I got from reading the article.  Yes you will have to have higher prficiencies....everyone will have to multi-engine rated for starters.  They may only have 3 guys right now...but if all three are multi-engine CFIs it does not really take all that long to train up more pilots.  Given that it is NOT a CAP plane they can use it to train more pilots.  If they donate their instruction time that would keep the costs down to just gas and wear & tear.  The obvously think they can pull it off.

We bring plenty of tools and capabilities to the table.  We do it all the time, around the country.  Some of us do it better than others.  It simply takes someone to go in and talk to local officials.   This clearly is a problem...and it is not solved by buying more stuff.

What are trying to say we would not be more effective if we were all given a thermal detector or a FLIR system?  Assuming selling the mark I eye ball as your only sensor platform is not going to impress the local sherrifs when they think that a helo is better than a fixed wing aircraft.  I am not saying that we don't do well everywhere....I am only addressing the situation in Oregon as I understand it.  From what I understand the locals knew of our capabilities but did not think we were the right tool for the job.  Getting a better sensor makes that sell easier in the future.

[Chris Jacobs]

Before they get FLIR i think they are looking at getting speakers for the bottom of the plane.  this will allow them to verbally give directions to people on the ground.

The skymaster is a unique multi engine choice because it doesn't handle like most multi engines.  It is a push/pull set up so that means if one engine goes out no change.  I was talking to Lt. bakker and he was actually saying that for cruise they will shut down one engine to keep the fuel down.  It is a really great airplane and CAP should be operating them on a cooperate level, especially in coastal and mountain regions.

[DNall]

CAP uses new planes, and there 337 has good & bad points. Yes you can shut down the rear engine I believe it is & cruise on the front, assuming you're in weight tolerances, but if you lose the front & have to fly on the back only you're screwed. Least that's how our Gp PD officer here tells it about Vietnam. However, you put on that loud speaker system, FLIR, and the few other toys they are talking, plus lots of gas & three adults... you're talking about pretty darn heavy.

The situation with the corporate plane is this... clearly the rules say it must be used first, and can be flown by any CAP MP current on the type. OR you have this 337 with FLIR flown just by members of their private flying club. I'm pretty sure, based on the gear, the 337 will get flown at times over the CAP 182. And not only that, but the hours going on it by CAP pilots that may otherwise be putting those on the 182, and some portion of those missions at least could go to CAP if the Wg would develop the relationships.

Also, I thought for some reason that you do not need a multi for 337s, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was just HP & complex plus a number of hours. If it is instrument then, that adds up to multi-engine commercial with instrument (no FAA exemptions for them).

[A.Member]

The skymaster is a unique multi engine choice because it doesn't handle like most multi engines.  It is a push/pull set up so that means if one engine goes out no change.  I was talking to Lt. bakker and he was actually saying that for cruise they will shut down one engine to keep the fuel down.  It is a really great airplane and CAP should be operating them on a cooperate level, especially in coastal and mountain regions.

The Mixmaster is unique, I'll grant you that.  But this group will need every dime it can muster to pay for the maintenance and fuel costs.  It would not be a good choice for a CAP airplane for several reasons (two of which I already pointed out). 

[DNall]

Oh & the CG thing, that's a bit a crap. That's what the CG Aux Air is for, and they don't get used much. These guys with special gear might get more than that, but they'd be better off joining CGAux also for those missions. CAP can & does work with CG quite often, usually in major inshore searches where we cover the coastal side of marine grids & don't fly out beyond "glide range" of land. CAP also flys member-multis over water on lots of HLS stuff. I really like the skymaster, but if I were going to go to a multi for CAP purposes it'd be a more significant platform that can carry lots of toys, crew, & gas on long haul multi-role missions.

[A.Member]

Also, I thought for some reason that you do not need a multi for 337s, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was just HP & complex plus a number of hours. If it is instrument then, that adds up to multi-engine commercial with instrument (no FAA exemptions for them).

You're right, it is a complex aircraft but you still need a multi-engine rating.   If you obtained your multi in a 337, the FAA would actually issue the rating with a "center-line thrust" operating limitation (or at least you used to - "limited to CE-336/337 only").  This limitation was actually created specifically as a result of the 336/337. 

[RiverAux]

Before they get FLIR i think they are looking at getting speakers for the bottom of the plane.  this will allow them to verbally give directions to people on the ground.

Hawaii Wing apparently uses loudspeakers all the time, so the new plane isn't necessary.

I, like most, have no problem with them buying a private plane and maybe it could be used by CAP or CG Aux Air on occassion, but for most CAP missions it would probably be the last choice, for cost if no other reason. 

[Chris Jacobs]

Oh & the CG thing, that's a bit a crap. That's what the CG Aux Air is for, and they don't get used much. These guys with special gear might get more than that, but they'd be better off joining CGAux also for those missions. CAP can & does work with CG quite often, usually in major inshore searches where we cover the coastal side of marine grids & don't fly out beyond "glide range" of land. CAP also flys member-multis over water on lots of HLS stuff. I really like the skymaster, but if I were going to go to a multi for CAP purposes it'd be a more significant platform that can carry lots of toys, crew, & gas on long haul multi-role missions.

Well it's not crap because the coast guard is already using them a lot in their 182.  i don't know where you are from but between Oregon and washington we have the most dangerous waters in the country behind alaska.  The coast guard really wants our help in the area, and they wont take us out to sea unless we have a multi engine.  this will increase our mission load on all aircraft and if the coast guard wants to work with the airforce i don't see the problem.  And while i am not positive on any of this the only aircraft that i can think of the coast guard owning in this area is helo's.  Which are great and take care of all their missions, but they like to use us for comm support.  we especially are good at talking with multiple agencies.  So the coast guard does want to use us and is already doing so in a limited manner.

[RiverAux]

Are you saying that the Coast Guard is asking for CAP support?  Are these missions being done through AFRCC or the NOC?  Is OR Wing getting reimbursed by AF or the CG?  I'm interested in the mechanics of how this is being done. 

[Chris Jacobs]

I don't know exactly who is paying in the end, whether it is the coast guard or the air force.  in the end i guess it doesn't truly matter that much because the tax payers are the ones really paying for it.  The money comes from one big pile anyways.  the missions are official and all but i don't know the innerworkings of how the NOC and air force approve all the missions.

[RiverAux]

By the way, it looks like there is only 1 CG Aux aircraft in Oregon and there are 15(including 1 helicopter and 1 floatplane) in Washington. 

[Chris Jacobs]

Does it tell you which kind of air craft they are?

[DNall]

Are you saying that the Coast Guard is asking for CAP support?  Are these missions being done through AFRCC or the NOC?  Is OR Wing getting reimbursed by AF or the CG?  I'm interested in the mechanics of how this is being done. 

I can tell you what has happened here in Texas before... which is we've done some excicises (AF funded SaREx on our end, matched dates with their stuff). I've been on several REDCAPs with CG, including for missing vessels in distress in the open water. CAP would put ground teams along the beach, & Air in coastal grids off a marine chart or just route searches.

Functionally it was always CG running the show, but with a fair number of CAP staff working closely on the team at the CG Air Wg, and our own brach directors putting out ops from the CAP base across the street.

Most of those incidents we were on AFRCC mission numbers after they were requested by the CG RCC. It's a pretty simple thing, you just need local CG Air Wing to like CAP & want you helping them out w/o running into a helicopter. Biggest thing there is getting up to speed on the ICS/NIMS compliance as it sits right now.

[RiverAux]

My experience as a CAP member with the CG has mostly involved them handing ELT missions over to us after they figured out it wasn't on the ocean OR a few occassions where we handed missions over to them when we figured out it wasn't on the land....