NCO's in CAP - the challenges

Started by Dragoon, January 02, 2007, 12:01:33 AM

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capchiro

Having had a father that was a bombadier and navigator that flew out of England and Korea and risked his arse on the line several times, I am not sure that using pilot status as some guide to command is a good idea.  Not everyone in the military got to go to pilot training.  This was not always their fault and did not reflect any less quality as a commander.  Dad did not rise as high as he would have had he been a pilot in the real air force.  Was this fair?  He certainly put his life on the line for his country in two wars.  I also have a son that graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1991.  His class was the first class to suffer the brunt of Air Force pilot cuts.  Most classes prior to his had 60-70% go to pilot training.  His class had 25%.  He went to missle silos.  Does his lack of pilot status make him less thna a good leader/commander?  We must also remember that we have three missions and they don't require a pilot to  command all of them.   So, being a mission observer (although not current), and a squadron commander, I am against requiring a commander to be a pilot.  One of the differences in a CAP non-pilot and CAP pilot is money.  almost anyone with enough money can become a  CAP pilot, thereby allowing a rich boy to "purchase" a command.  CAP pilot status does not reflect any more leadership training than any other senior member.  this is not saying we don't need pilots, just that they are not gods.  Now, as far as having NCO's in CAP, I think it is s good idea, but not in the same status as in the military.  One must remember that CAP is a voluntary organization and NCO's have been trained to accomplish their missions by "intimidating" lower ranking enlisted types.  Won't work in CAP.  CAP requires leadership that motivates a member to "want" to do something, not scares them into compliance.  Leadership in CAP is an art and comes with much experience including the ability to persuade.  Most seniors that work 40 hours a week are not going to join an organization, not get paid, and be yelled at.  If they wanted that, they could join the National Guard and be working toward retirement.  JMHO.               
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

NEBoom

Quote from: msmjr2003 on January 02, 2007, 03:37:39 PM
My most proud accomplishment in my Air Force service, even exceeding my "beating the odds" and earning an enlisted commissioning program opportunity, was earning SSgt - so let it be known UP FRONT that no joy (for me) ever compared with competing for and earning an NCO grade.

That being said...

I do not support (in my heart) CAP senior member NCOs resting on their past accomplishments as they progress towards a future in CAP.

Firstly, a CAP NCO is limited in his/her ability to progress within the program.
<snip>

Second of all, I have heartburn with ANY military member, officer or NCO, thinking that their military career (apples) is directly applicable in CAP (oranges.)  There is a distinct tenor associated with being a CAP senior that is hardly akin to the demeanor used as a military member.  To rest on one's laurels and feel that there is a direct transferral of mentality from one to the other is a gross misunderstanding in my opinion.

Third, I have yet to see how an NCO senior has any real use within our watered-down officer/senior system.  As seniors, there is in essence, no other authority via rank 'n grade except that which is granted through command tenures (and whatever the commander delegates to others.)
<snip>

I've always had problems with folks trying to cross the CAP "ghostbusters" streams...  I will ALWAYS be kind, polite, and professional to any member of CAP (even the butt-nuggets that I see in person and often, here on these forums...at least, to the best of my ability.)  All the same, my kindness, politeness, and professionalism to a fellow volunteer is simply due in no small part to the fact that they are fellow volunteers - none of these attributes flows to others on account that they wear stars, bars, leaves, or sleeves.

It's the CAP way....which differs strikingly from how I would approach the same subject during my blue suiter days.

FWIW...and worth the price you paid for it, those are my thoughts on the matter....  :)

You're hitting here on the major reason why this isn't going to work, at least not until a major overhaul of the senior member officer structure is accomplished (which, if I may make an understatement, wont' be for a while).  The basic culture of CAP will have to be addressed first.  This would require the leadership in CAP to drop the politics and all the uniform changes, and actually work together as a team for the greater good of CAP (rather than themselves).  Call me a cynic, but I think lightning will strike me twice at least before that happens.

On a slightly different subject, one of the ideas being put forth in the locked thread was that the CAP NCO corps will somehow be "above the fray" and act as a "moral compass" for the organization.  I don't know from where all these perfect NCO beings will come, but my guess is the type of person we'd need for this will be few and far between.  Amongst all the noise of that thread, that was my understanding of what the NCO corps would mainly be used for.  I'm sorry, but under current conditions, I just don't see that happening.  An NCO corps coming in to "clean house" would be received about as well as anyone else who's ever tried to "clean house" in CAP.  Again call me a cynic, but this NCO corps would be viewed as a bunch of outsiders coming in to tell us how to run things.

OK enough rambling.  I've wasted yet another hour of my time on here (I'm starting to think it's a sickness of some sort... :))

Good day to all!
Lt Col Dan Kirwan, CAP
Nebraska Wing

Chief Chiafos

Gentlemen,

What I know about computers and websites you can write on a thumbnail.  It took me a while to figure out the Chief's Corner has been "closed".  Pity.  That was my first venture into the realm of the cyber and a real learning expirence.  I want to thank all of you who emailed me - you are the heart and soul of CAP, you are the doers who somehow keep CAP going - you are the hope for CAPs future.

It seems that most people have a hard time grasping the NCO concept - its simple: Leadership, leadership, leadership.  That isn't suprising in an organization starved for it.  A corps of seasoned professionals who lead by example, and impart those skills to all willing to learn.  To re-blue CAP in the military traditions from which it sprang - to regain the confidence, even the pride, of the Air Force.

I have also learned that these websites are high maintenance and the message soon drowns in irrelavent noise.

There is nothing wrong with CAP that cannot be fixed - another concept difficult for some to embrace.  There are those who love the chaos because they can escape accountability by hiding in it.  They are free to do as they choose and the thought of giving that up is hateful to them - so they stoke the fires of controversy, quibble, split hairs, and argue about where to put the pencils.

I leave you with this bit of wisdom form Theodore Roosevelt:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Smokey

I think some are missing the point in the Chief's message....Chief correct me if I am wrong.....

I don't think he is proposing starting up a whole new corps of NCOs.  I think he wants to use the existing NCOs and those who may join in the future (who have been RLNCOs) as a resource. Use them to HELP direct the CAP officers, especially those without military training, to perform better.  They would be a resource in miliatry leadership, procedures, etc that would be better than just book learning.

I don't believe the Chief's proposal is to have a corp of NCOs that would be a separate entity, but a manner of harnessing their knowledge to ASSIST those CAP officers in the ways and whys of military operational issues and leadership.  Face it....for even the folks here who a corporate to the bone and would love to divorce the AF, we are still tied to them.  If we want to make things work together we need to speak the same language, dine at the same table and not act the like spoiled out of control child that is relegated to the closet.  I think the chief wants to help us with our relationship with our parent (AF) by tapping into the existing plethora of knowledge the NCOs have.

I dont' think his desire is nefarious or evil.  This does not appear to be one of those crazy schemes thought up by some.  Merely a way to use skill for everyones benifit.

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

Chief Chiafos

Smokey has sumed up all I have been saying - far better than I could.  All I can say is this: when the Iowa Wing got smart and began asking questions from members who were former NCOs the lights came on for the first time.  NCOs have revolutionized the Iowa Wing.  Morale is sky-high, nothing seems impossible, the old CAP - full of bickering and strife, is fading away.  You can do it to.

JohnKachenmeister

"To re-blue the CAP..."

Dang, Chief!

That's what I've been saying for YEARS!

At least there will be TWO of us that they can burn as heretics.
Another former CAP officer

A.Member

#26
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 02, 2007, 07:34:45 PM
"To re-blue the CAP..."

Dang, Chief!

That's what I've been saying for YEARS!

At least there will be TWO of us that they can burn as heretics.
I'm in agreement with that need as well, even if I remain unconvinced that his approach will be the one to accomplish that.  Actually, it's my belief that most members desire such a "re-bluing". 

Analogy:  We all agree that we're going to the store but we each want to take our own cars and our own route to get there.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

flyguy06

Quote from: capchiro on January 02, 2007, 06:01:20 PM
.  One must remember that CAP is a voluntary organization and NCO's have been trained to accomplish their missions by "intimidating" lower ranking enlisted types.  Won't work in CAP.  CAP requires leadership that motivates a member to "want" to do something, not scares them into compliance.  Leadership in CAP is an art and comes with much experience including the ability to persuade.  Most seniors that work 40 hours a week are not going to join an organization, not get paid, and be yelled at.  If they wanted that, they could join the National Guard and be working toward retirement.  JMHO.               

Sir,

Iresect you,you are a friend, but I have to take exception to your comment aabout NCO's intimidating soldiers. NCO's are professional leaders. No where in the leadership Principles of any service does it say to "intimidate" junior enlisted. NCO's lead by providing purpose, direction, and  motivation. Maybe its the motivation part that you are confussing with "intimidation" Remeber that basic Training is not the orm for the military. Basic Training is  unique  environment nto itself. Yes, NCO's have to treat trainees a certain way in basic, because it is an indoctrination to a culture that these young civilians are not accustomed to. A dril Sergenats job is to take white people, black people, rich people, poor people, people from New York City, and people from the moutnains of Tennessee and make them into a team. You all these people wih very different backgrounds and the DI has to make them into a team. The only way to do that effectivley is to break them all down on the same level and build them into ane team. So that rich kid who probably never did a days worth of hard labor is treated no differently than that pooor kid wh probably never had a fancy outfit before. They are devleoped into one team.

Now after basic, NCO's do not go around yelling and sceaming at troops unless it is warrented. Now, of course if a soldier gets out of line yes a NCO will step back into that role and put him back in line. Life in everyday military is a professional environment with mutual respect regardless of rank.  If a soldier gets out of line then yes an NCO will put hm back in line.If I (an LT) get out of line, a MAJ will put me back in line. But its not as if its a daily dose of stress eeryday.

So, please never think an NCO's job is to intimidate That is far far from the truth. NCO's lead by example and make it happen.

lordmonar

I guess I am going to reserve any more comments on this topic until I see somthing more substantial in what the NCO program will be all about.  What exactly will the duties of these members be?  How will they integrate with the local squadrons and how will their professional development be managed.

I have read a lot about what Iowa is doing for CAP and for the most part I am pleased and excited about the results.  If we can capture the lessons learned and then a comprehensive plan and vision written up and sent out through official channels.  That I would like to see.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Chief Chiafos

Why do you have to wait for something in writing?  I don't get it.  If you have former NCOs simply use them.  What is so difficult about that?

When I returned to CAP and attended my first meeting I was horrified by what they were calling "opening ceremoines".  As most new members, I just assumed; well, that's the way things are done in CAP - But I knew better.  After a few more meetings I could no longer stand it!  I told the Squadron CC his formations and courtesies to the colors sucked, and sucked big time.  Fine, he said, fix it.  Our formations, and uniforms, are now as good as, and in someways better than, the Air Force!  Yea, that's right, BETTER than the Air Force.

The CC said, Chief do what you want - get this goat heard organized.  I trained our Officer staff and cadets in drill, ceremonies, customs, courtesies, and leadership. I was amazed!  They all set high standards for themselves, and then began to demand it from the slackers.  A NEW culture was born in the 78th Cadet Squadron, and once properly trained, that culture now perpetuates itself!

The squadron is PROUD!  It bought a Squadron flag and Guidon.  The competition by cadets for the priviledge to carry the guidon is fierce.  THEY decided only the cadet with the best uniform can carry it.

You want change, you want to be better, get off your cans and just DO IT.  That form of behavior gentlemen, is called LEADERSHIP!


MIKE

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on January 02, 2007, 06:44:05 PM
What I know about computers and websites you can write on a thumbnail.  It took me a while to figure out the Chief's Corner has been "closed".  Pity.

Sorry Chief, had to do it.  I think you'll learn how stuff works eventually... Most people pick up on stuff after they have been on a board for a while...  Others are just n00bs.  ;D  

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on January 02, 2007, 06:44:05 PM
I have also learned that these websites are high maintenance and the message soon drowns in irrelavent noise.

Learns fast, he does.  :)

Mike Johnston

lordmonar

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on January 02, 2007, 09:45:28 PM
Why do you have to wait for something in writing?  I don't get it.  If you have former NCOs simply use them.  What is so difficult about that?

When I returned to CAP and attended my first meeting I was horrified by what they were calling "opening ceremoines".  As most new members, I just assumed; well, that's the way things are done in CAP - But I knew better.  After a few more meetings I could no longer stand it!  I told the Squadron CC his formations and courtesies to the colors sucked, and sucked big time.  Fine, he said, fix it.  Our formations, and uniforms, are now as good as, and in someways better than, the Air Force!  Yea, that's right, BETTER than the Air Force.

The CC said, Chief do what you want - get this goat heard organized.  I trained our Officer staff and cadets in drill, ceremonies, customs, courtesies, and leadership. I was amazed!  They all set high standards for themselves, and then began to demand it from the slackers.  A NEW culture was born in the 78th Cadet Squadron, and once properly trained, that culture now perpetuates itself!

The squadron is PROUD!  It bought a Squadron flag and Guidon.  The competition by cadets for the priviledge to carry the guidon is fierce.  THEY decided only the cadet with the best uniform can carry it.

You want change, you want to be better, get off your cans and just DO IT.  That form of behavior gentlemen, is called LEADERSHIP!

I do that anyways as a CAP Capt.  I don't need my MSgt stripes to lead.  Again...what I am looking for is what is national's vision on how NCO's are to be integrated into the squadron.  How are we going to manage the NCO's professional development. 

Saying just start leading is not enough of a duty discription for me to want to establish a CAP NCO corps.

What exactly are the duites of the NCO?  I know exactly what I am supposed to do as a USAF SNCO....but those are the same things I am supposed to be doing as a CAP officer.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

sandman

Quote from: lordmonar on January 02, 2007, 10:07:13 PM
Quote from: Chief Chiafos on January 02, 2007, 09:45:28 PM
Why do you have to wait for something in writing?  I don't get it.  If you have former NCOs simply use them.  What is so difficult about that?

When I returned to CAP and attended my first meeting I was horrified by what they were calling "opening ceremoines".  As most new members, I just assumed; well, that's the way things are done in CAP - But I knew better.  After a few more meetings I could no longer stand it!  I told the Squadron CC his formations and courtesies to the colors sucked, and sucked big time.  Fine, he said, fix it.  Our formations, and uniforms, are now as good as, and in someways better than, the Air Force!  Yea, that's right, BETTER than the Air Force.

The CC said, Chief do what you want - get this goat heard organized.  I trained our Officer staff and cadets in drill, ceremonies, customs, courtesies, and leadership. I was amazed!  They all set high standards for themselves, and then began to demand it from the slackers.  A NEW culture was born in the 78th Cadet Squadron, and once properly trained, that culture now perpetuates itself!

The squadron is PROUD!  It bought a Squadron flag and Guidon.  The competition by cadets for the priviledge to carry the guidon is fierce.  THEY decided only the cadet with the best uniform can carry it.

You want change, you want to be better, get off your cans and just DO IT.  That form of behavior gentlemen, is called LEADERSHIP!
I do that anyways as a CAP Capt.  I don't need my MSgt stripes to lead.  Again...what I am looking for is what is national's vision on how NCO's are to be integrated into the squadron.  How are we going to manage the NCO's professional development. 

Saying just start leading is not enough of a duty discription for me to want to establish a CAP NCO corps.

What exactly are the duites of the NCO?  I know exactly what I am supposed to do as a USAF SNCO....but those are the same things I am supposed to be doing as a CAP officer.

Valid point. Shouldn't CAP appeal to those former NCO's, now wearing officer devices, to take up the slack and lead by example? In other words, shouldn't CAP NHQ led off on a campaign to raise the awareness of the military heritage of CAP by appealing to current and former NCO's to bring order and dicipline to their local units? What advantage will wearing NCO stripes bring? How will that help?
My skepticism of this program is elevating...
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

Al Sayre

I still worry about gutting squadrons if the RLNCO's revert back to their stripes.  In my case I have two RLNCO's, me and my Deputy Commander for Seniors.  I've also got a couple of RLO's, one is pretty active in the Aerospace Education for the Cadets, but that's all he's really interested in, and the other I've only seen once or twice since I joined the Squadron as far as I know, that's it for a Squadron of 60 members.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

DNall

Chief I don't think anyone has a problem utilizing NCOs in the role you describe. It's the big picture that escapes us...

I think we're all seeking the same end point!!!! I think we all agree there is no single silver bullet program to fix it, that it'll take several simultaneous efforts from varrious directions. I don't think we fully have our brains wrapped around the details of what Chief wants to do & how he wants to do it - I get the individual level, not as well the broader national program & execution details.

Are NCOs particularly required to accomplish this feat? Well the grade doesn't matter, but their experience in mentoring superior officers & shoving a back bane up from below does. The only advantage in designating them NCOs is it brings a degree of credibility to start. If they took the same people into this seperate specialty track & kept wearing officer grade, it just wouldn't be as effective. How screwy does that make CAP? well that 's a whole other topic.

You guys know I'm full on all out for massive reformation of the officer program - limited slots, 80% AF standards, selection & promotion boards w/ an AF rep, merit based system following AF career timelines... the whole deal. I understand teh argument that an NCO program like this cannot be extremely effective w/o also making those changes to the officer program, but look at it from the other direction. What if Chief runs this NCO program in here that proves to everyone how much we need an NCO corps, then what officers should be, then that we need to recruit civilians thru an enlisted track to CAP-made NCOs meeting real standards... What if what he's doing is coming from one direction, while other things come from a couple other diretions, all trying to meet in the middle? That's what I see here. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I don't think so.

lordmonar

Quote from: sandman on January 02, 2007, 10:24:13 PMValid point. Shouldn't CAP appeal to those former NCO's, now wearing officer devices, to take up the slack and lead by example? In other words, shouldn't CAP NHQ led off on a campaign to raise the awareness of the military heritage of CAP by appealing to current and former NCO's to bring order and discipline to their local units? What advantage will wearing NCO stripes bring? How will that help?
My skepticism of this program is elevating...

And officers.....there is a lot of military experience in most CAP squadron.  The lack of militarism is not because there is no one around who knows better.  NHQ should send out to all echelons of command that they would like to see more attention to military customs and courtesies, wear of the uniform and a more military image.  That is all that is needed.  Communication.  If lack of military awareness is the problem then lets address the problem.  Creating a new wrinkle in the already wrinkle CAP rank structure is not how I would address this problem (if there really is one).
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Dragoon

The big question is - where is the parallel effort to utilize the talents of real military officers to fix the organization?  Or has CAP decided that only military NCOs have the leadership qualities needed to make the change?

I've always thought it a bit odd how we hold the stripes in such high respect, and, hand out bars and oak leaves like candy.  Weird.

Chief Chiafos

I want to express my gratitude to all who have posted here, and in the Chief's Corner.  I am trying to digest what everyone had to say: the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Some concepts I had will have to be rethought, and others, which I had not anticipated at all, require some additional thinking.  As I try to find where and how I will fit into Headquarters, my thoughts will always be with you - the people who are CAP.

The NCO issue, like so many others, uniforms, etc., are rooted in the schizophrenic nature of CAP: are we, or are we not "military"?  The Air Force says they want us to wear their unifrom - and then works like hell to ensure that we don't look like the Air Force.  The Air Force expects us to abide by customs and courtesies, but instructs its people not to salute us back.  Is it any wonder we are confused, frustrated, and demoralised?

And CAP is just as bad; authorizing award of distintictive achievements, like the Blue Beret - then forbiding anyone to wear it (I know, I know, I know - that has recently changed).  But the idea is basic and still applies; and it sends a terrible message.

Our Officers are not "real" but expected to act like they are; until you try to hold one accountable, then its the old "Hey, I'm a Vounteer - worship me because I am here" song and dance.  Try that one in the all "volunteer" military and see what happens.  Try to correct a misworn uniform and you get the - "I'm not in the military" excuse.

We desparately need trainable people but we have an any-moron-wannabe can join membership policy.  I have watched smart and talented people come to a meeting with intention to join, get a good look at Capt. Snuffy and his refugee-from-a-surplus-store appearance, and we never see them again.

Before CAP will ever get its house in order, it must decide what it is.  If we are military then we need to embrace it whole heartedly.  Set manning documents for each unit and recruit to fill slots, demand discipline, and all other things military; and send those who cannot or will not comply to the Boy Scouts.

If we are not military - then lets dump all the pretence and return the uniforms to the Air Force with a thank you very much, but we don't pretend anymore.

No man can serve two masters - neither can CAP.  For he will serve only one to neglect the other, or dispise them both.


Dragoon

Good points all, Chief.  Overall, a definition of the basic problem.  BG Anderson noticed it years back - we're military when it suits us, and corporate when it doesn't.

Kind of like being "a little bit pregnant."

And, with the problem defined, the question becomes "what is the best set of changes to correct the problem?"

Hopefully, you'll be in a position to put forth some modest proposals to fix things.

flyguy06

I msis Gen Anderson......and Gen"s Bergman, Bowling, Cass, and the rest that go back to 1984.