Duty Day for Ground Operations?

[RADIOMAN015]

Do we have a limit on the duty day (defined as time one reports for duty at squadron and time one leaves from duty from squadron) for anyone who is driving a CAP vehicle

Here's an example.   CAP Driver provides transportation to an activity driving time total to/from activity 2.5 to 2.75 hrs.  HOWEVER, driver also participates in activity (not driving, primarily classroom type activities) for 12 hours.  So total duty day between 14.5 to 14.75 hrs.  (basically left squadron at 0630 hrs local and arrived back around 2130 hrs local).

I know with aircrews on any type of training exercise the wing doesn't want to exceed 12 hours duty day, and actually tries to keep it under that.

Comments?

RM 

[Eclipse]

No.

39-3 limits the number of sorties to 3 per day (4 hours per), and most operations I have worked on do not exceed that 12 hours, but there is no crew rest regulation or limitation for ground teams or base staff.

[sardak]

Good question that NHQ should act on at some point. Proposals for defining duty day were submitted during the draft phase of the current "interim" version of CAPR 60-3 but apparently didn't make the cut. We discussed this on CAP Talk most three years ago but that thread didn't go anywhere - not even to uniforms . http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3816.0

Mike

[RADIOMAN015]

Good question that NHQ should act on at some point. Proposals for defining duty day were submitted during the draft phase of the current "interim" version of CAPR 60-3 but apparently didn't make the cut. We discussed this on CAP Talk most three years ago but that thread didn't go anywhere - not even to uniforms . http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3816.0

Mike

Thanks for the above information.  I've noted that the Federal DOT website allows up to 16 hours "of on duty time" for driver's of commercial buses carrying greater than 16 people.

I've also seen documents via google search that in extra ordinary circumstances in the AF, personnel could have a duty day of 16 hours.

There's two issues with this.   First on a real mission responses, the responders have likely been up already for a period of time.  I spent an all nighter at our mission base during one ELT hunt, and I have absolutely NO idea how the UDF team van driver/team leader was ever able to stay that alert driving throughout the period (likely we were all up for a 24 hours period).

The other issue is typical scheduled training or another activity.   Do you schedule training to take into consideration the longest travel time by the unit participating so you don't go over whatever the standard is    Also what about a cadet activity (e.g. Color Guard Competition) that has units traveling 6 hours to the competition.  IF they leave on Sunday by 1400 hrs local (0700 start time), it's likely they could make it home in about 14 hours also.   Again do we really want members driving a van that are going to exceed a total duty time of over 16 hours  

I think there's a reluctance for CAP to limit ground time, BUT even during accident investigations are some of the questions asked how long had you been on duty?  How long had you been awake prior to the accident?  How long did you sleep before you started your day (duty day) (whatever or both is applicable) , etc.

RM

[LGM30GMCC]

This is exactly why we have safety officers. To bring up issues like this and make sure the people making decisions (IC/GBD/Etc) take these things into consideration.

As for the AF, the 'normal' maximum duty day is 16 hrs. However, in extraordinary circumstances (At least in missiles) the group commander in question can often put the folks on duty at any time. I don't know how they did the 20+ hr BUFF missions when bombing Iraq from Missouri, but I'm sure it involved some waivers and back-up crews.

For those in geographically separated wings (like MTWG, lots of space, not much population) it is something that has to be taken into consideration. It means teams may have to arrive the night before and we try to wrap up events in the early afternoon at most.

The example you cited of having to pull an all-nighter strikes me as irresponsible and very poor planning on a number of people's. Beyond 16hrs not only are you a hazard to yourself in terms of fatigue, but you are less effective at search. It may very well be better to have you sleep, and go at it fresh in the morning rather than try to just keep going. Also, were you busy during that whole time? Or could you and your team leader have found a quiet corner before you're posted somewhere and have the team catch some shut-eye?

The problem I see is the 'This is an EMERGENCY, we have to respond RIGHT NOW or people are GOING TO DIE", while having a sense of urgency is good, we have to take care of our own folks or they could be added to a tragedy, rather than trying to prevent one.

These are things I would bring up to your leadership during the next SAREX debrief/etc and ensure is covered in planning it all out.