There are a number of threads on creating new badges for CAP, and we do have loads of various badges and patches, along with our various uniforms themselves. Some people find our fully configured BDU's similar to NASCAR driver uniforms (Forgot who said it, wasn't me, I just find the comparison amusing and apt.)
My question is: Going through the entire uniform manual (and various letters as supplemental policy), what would you eliminate?
Not looking for anything to the effect of "I'd get rid of this and then create this", or discussions on whether someone is right or wrong (within reason). How would you reduce the size of our uniform manual?
I wouldn't.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 28, 2007, 07:55:09 PM
My question is: Going through the entire uniform manual (and various letters as supplemental policy), what would you eliminate?
Patches from the BDU and Field Uniform. White on blue cloth insignia only.
ES patches from bags.
CAP Corporate Uniform or blazer, aviator shirt... Pick one.
CAP Utility Uniform, not quite a bag, not quite a Field Uniform.
Golf shirts.
Pre-solo badge.
Group CC badge.
Beanies and Hawk bling. - Reverse NB decision, and eliminate all together.
National Commanders Commendation. - CCA with star.
National Commanders Unit Citation.
Edited to add: White undershirts with Field Uniform.
Maybe more later.
I know that SrA McLarty has personally volunteered to rewrite the entire CAP uniform manual.
It would be interesting to see what he has to say about all this.
Thanks, MIKE exactly what I'm looking for.
If anyone is interested, I'll compile a list and post it in a week or so.
Senior Professional Development awards. Keep one ribbon and add a numeral or clasps to show development level.
Second my vote for ALL patches off the BDU. Name, Civil Air Patrol, GT, Wings, and rank. The wing patch is required by some wings... should be GONE like the fins off a 57 Chevy... GONE! No squadron stuff, either. Why do you need that? So if you get drunk and pass out the cops will know where to take you back to?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2007, 10:29:13 PM
Senior Professional Development awards. Keep one ribbon and add a numeral or clasps to show development level.
Per CAPR 39-3, seniors can opt to wear only the highest professional development award. Just pointing that out.
Eliminate:
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards! (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets. All, some, or none was fine the way it was.
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)
Eliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.
Eliminate the New CAP Command Shield for flight suits, vehicles, etc.
Eliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB. Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)
Eliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.
Eliminate BOTH the emergency services patches. (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)
Eliminate the yellow "chicken print" CAP flight suit scarf!
Eliminate berets
Eliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts, orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms, and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.
Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear. Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out. This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.
Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.
Eliminate the pre-solo wings.
Agreed with Mike to eliminate White undershirts/t-shirts with the field uniform. To me it looks super-trashy. Wear black.
I'm sure I'll think of more.
I think we should be a bit more inline with the Air Force on what they wear on their BDUs.
Perhaps authorize only:
1) Specialty badge
2) Pilot or aircrew wings
Eliminate everything else on the BDUs unless it conforms to what the Air Force is doing.
While we are at it, let's get rid of the ultramarine blue, it looks hideous! I'm sure we can come up with something more professional looking.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate:
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards! (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets. All, some, or none was fine the way it was.
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)
Eliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.
Eliminate the New CAP Command Shield for flight suits, vehicles, etc.
Eliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB. Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)
Eliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.
Eliminate BOTH the emergency services patches. (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)
Eliminate the yellow "chicken print" CAP flight suit scarf!
Eliminate berets
Eliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts, orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms, and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.
Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear. Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out. This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.
Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.
Eliminate the pre-solo wings.
Agreed with Mike to eliminate White undershirts/t-shirts with the field uniform. To me it looks super-trashy. Wear black.
I'm sure I'll think of more.
I agree with everything except for the C/AB issue. As it is, the officer without grade uniform is identified by having no grade insignia at all. A 17 year old C/AB cannot be confused with a 19 year old officer without grade. Considering that by eliminating the CAP cutouts on the rest of cadets uniforms and if we eliminate the cutouts from the TPU there will be no reason to make the cutouts anymore, we should come up with some distinctive insignia for officers without grade... perhaps something more in line with what CG Aux assigns to their members... A prop or something? Perhaps go to gray epaulets with nothing but CAP on them. I think those used to be made.
Unit patches are inline with the air force BDU wear traditions and since it's an Air Force style uniform, I see nothing wrong with wearing them and tabs like Honor Guard. However, when we make the switch (and I believe it's almost certain we will one day) to ABU, all patches will be unauthorized anyway.
As far as the navy utilities... I think the new Army/Air Force tan t-shirt should be the one authorized. It is already readily available, will look good against the navy (black and navy looks bad) and will be the proper t-shirt for when we switch to ABU anyway.
Berets should be gone as an activity award. It's nothing but elitist and serves no pupose (does not identify anything important). If someone likes berets, perhaps it should be authorized to ES trained personnel in lieu of the ES patch. At least it will identify those of us who are operationally trained and active, cadet and senior. We can develop a metal flash to be worn similar to the one PJ's wear, but one that's rooted in our CAP history... perhaps an angel with a prop? That way all members will be able to be a part of a truly elite and trained group of CAP personnel, all over the nation.
Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM
I think we should be a bit more inline with the Air Force on what they wear on their BDUs.
Perhaps authorize only:
1) Specialty badge
2) Pilot or aircrew wings
Eliminate everything else on the BDUs unless it conforms to what the Air Force is doing.
I agree, especially the American flag patch on the BDU's. We are not the auxiliary of the Army.
Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM
While we are at it, let's get rid of the ultramarine blue, it looks hideous! I'm sure we can come up with something more professional looking.
How about these?
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/2477/3542/1600/863019/nametape.jpg
Source: www.cap-sarex.blogspot.com
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards! (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)
New style enlisted service dress is the only reason I can see for keeping them. It's a double edged sword.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets. All, some, or none was fine the way it was.
If you're gonna do it, there needs to be a standard applied to
some IMO. Highest achievement/award ribbon works for me and mirrors the standards for seniors.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)
Ok, but what about SMs without grade and NCOs?
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat
And the silver chin strap on the service cap.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.
Ok.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB. Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)
This assumes they won't wear service dress as a C/AB?
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.
NON-CONCUR. I would really like to see more of this actually, for other positions in line with the
Leadership Expectations chart.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate BOTH the emergency services patches. (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)
And fugly.
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts, orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms, and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.
Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear. Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out. This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.
Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.
Word!
Quote from: Guardrail on January 28, 2007, 11:09:21 PM
Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM
I think we should be a bit more inline with the Air Force on what they wear on their BDUs.
Perhaps authorize only:
1) Specialty badge
2) Pilot or aircrew wings
Eliminate everything else on the BDUs unless it conforms to what the Air Force is doing.
I agree, especially the American flag patch on the BDU's. We are not the auxiliary of the Army.
Quote from: DrJbdm on January 28, 2007, 10:56:47 PM
While we are at it, let's get rid of the ultramarine blue, it looks hideous! I'm sure we can come up with something more professional looking.
How about these?
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/2477/3542/1600/863019/nametape.jpg
Source: www.cap-sarex.blogspot.com
Yeah... I think ultramarine lettering on ABU background for tapes would work just great to identify us as CAP. I don't know if CG Aux has issues of identification, but their volunteers wear the same exact tapes as active duty does, it just says U.S.C.G. Auxiliary instead of US Coast Guard on them.
Yeah I like the dark blue color myself. the OD looking ones would work great too if we could get that authorized.
Changing the tape color isn't really eliminating uniform items... Which is the stated purpose of this thread.
I would like to see us eliminate the white/grays as well as the blazer combo. I think it should be the AF style or the TPU. I would keep the grays/golf shirt for those members who cannot or will not meet the grooming standard. Perhaps change the gray pants to khaki, which might look a little better.
Quote from: DrJbdm on January 29, 2007, 12:36:07 AM
I would like to see us eliminate the white/grays as well as the blazer combo. I think it should be the AF style or the TPU. I would keep the grays/golf shirt for those members who cannot or will not meet the grooming standard. Perhaps change the gray pants to khaki, which might look a little better.
Why eliminate the white/grays and the blazer combo? For those out of grooming and/or height and weight regs, the white/grays and blazer combo are the only way to meet UOD requirements without having to be in an AF uniform. Example: if the UOD is service dress, those members wear the blazer combo. If the UOD is mess dress, then it's blazer combo with bow tie and a medal.
I say get rid of the TPU altogether and keep the gray/golf shirt combos only for those who are not within grooming/height & weight standards.
I do like the idea of changing the grey pants to tan, though I think grey looks better with the blazer. Maybe only tan pants with the polo shirt?
Sorry I meant to hit this earlier but had to run. So w/o reading anyone else's...
1) Patches: The multi-color explosion is rediculous, might as well wear a girl scout sash. Take off the flag, wg patch, activity/school patches, anything like CISM/safety, burn those retaded ES patches on all uniforms... JUST tapes & embroidered versions of badges worn in the same position as on Blues. That's it, nothing else, stick your esprit de corps complaints. You're absolutely kidding me if you think people participate at your unit or not cause they're wearing a patch. We need to be building together, not apart into 52 seperate CAPs & certainly not 1500 or whatever seperate & unrelated units. We're eitehr a cohesive organization that looks dresses the part of the unified professionalism we want to display or we're not worth existing.
2) Badges: some of the specs can be combined into related career fields (admin/pers for instance, ops, etc). The CP & AE badges specifically need to fit the mold as an over the name badge. Which brings me to the wear policy. Yes there are four spots on a uniform wear some kind of badge can go, but that doesn't mean any badge can go in any spot. If you got wings those should be worn on top (pick one, mil or CAP, not both). Those two over the name slots are for spec track & operational badges. That's wings, GT, PAO, CP, Comm, ES, etc. The pocket is ONLY for specific duty badges like recruiter, honor guard, etc. The only thing that applies to in CAP is the NEC badge. A re-designed IG badge would be appropriate there, as would a nat/reg staff badge. NB badge needs to be eliminated now that there's a master command badge. Which brings me to over the name side. The ONLY thing that needs to go there is the command badge. Over for current, under for past, that's it. If that means you get a choice of one spec track badge & have to leave some spots empty, that's perfect, and the policy should at least encourage that the one badge you chose there be for the job you're currently assigned to (assuming you have that rating). If we have to redesign anything, for the love of God get rid of the cartoons.
3) Flight suit: get rid of the plastic grade in favor of dark blue sewn on, or at least make that optional. And don't change the command patch you retards.
...that's it on AF-style, now lets take care of corporate-style. Notice I said corporate-STYLE, not uniforms authorized by the CAP corporation, which is exactly what the original meaning of the phrase was.
4) Get rid of the golf shirt. I don't care how comfortable it is I don't care how easy or cheap it is. The purpose of a uniform & the intricate care it requires is not to look good, it is meant to require sacrifice, dillagnce, & vigilants specifically to remind you of you regularly & mechanically of the obligations you've committed to. The golf shirt was never made to be a uniform, it was made to be a novelty item sold by the bookstore. Cut that thing right now before it further corputs us.
5) pick one of either the corporate-style blue/white w/ service coat or gray/white w/ blazer. We'll assume they pick blue there & drop the grooming standard.
6) Drop BBDU & Blue utility jumpsuit (keep blue nomex flt suit). In place of that for field uniform use the same white aviator shirt but with BBDU pants & boots (must blouse pants). That's dramatically simplified (cheaper) and gives a professional appearance while not trying to look like a swat cop. Authorize CG-style blue Goretex parka w/ that combo & optional blue patrol cap or cold weather watch cap.
7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 01:49:19 AM
Sorry I meant to hit this earlier but had to run. So w/o reading anyone else's...
1) Patches: The multi-color explosion is rediculous, might as well wear a girl scout sash. Take off the flag, wg patch, activity/school patches, anything like CISM/safety, burn those retaded ES patches on all uniforms... JUST tapes & embroidered versions of badges worn in the same position as on Blues. That's it, nothing else, stick your esprit de corps complaints. You're absolutely kidding me if you think people participate at your unit or not cause they're wearing a patch. We need to be building together, not apart into 52 seperate CAPs & certainly not 1500 or whatever seperate & unrelated units. We're eitehr a cohesive organization that looks dresses the part of the unified professionalism we want to display or we're not worth existing.
2) Badges: some of the specs can be combined into related career fields (admin/pers for instance, ops, etc). The CP & AE badges specifically need to fit the mold as an over the name badge. Which brings me to the wear policy. Yes there are four spots on a uniform wear some kind of badge can go, but that doesn't mean any badge can go in any spot. If you got wings those should be worn on top (pick one, mil or CAP, not both). Those two over the name slots are for spec track & operational badges. That's wings, GT, PAO, CP, Comm, ES, etc. The pocket is ONLY for specific duty badges like recruiter, honor guard, etc. The only thing that applies to in CAP is the NEC badge. A re-designed IG badge would be appropriate there, as would a nat/reg staff badge. NB badge needs to be eliminated now that there's a master command badge. Which brings me to over the name side. The ONLY thing that needs to go there is the command badge. Over for current, under for past, that's it. If that means you get a choice of one spec track badge & have to leave some spots empty, that's perfect, and the policy should at least encourage that the one badge you chose there be for the job you're currently assigned to (assuming you have that rating). If we have to redesign anything, for the love of God get rid of the cartoons.
3) Flight suit: get rid of the plastic grade in favor of dark blue sewn on, or at least make that optional. And don't change the command patch you retards.
...that's it on AF-style, now lets take care of corporate-style. Notice I said corporate-STYLE, not uniforms authorized by the CAP corporation, which is exactly what the original meaning of the phrase was.
4) Get rid of the golf shirt. I don't care how comfortable it is I don't care how easy or cheap it is. The purpose of a uniform & the intricate care it requires is not to look good, it is meant to require sacrifice, dillagnce, & vigilants specifically to remind you of you regularly & mechanically of the obligations you've committed to. The golf shirt was never made to be a uniform, it was made to be a novelty item sold by the bookstore. Cut that thing right now before it further corputs us.
5) pick one of either the corporate-style blue/white w/ service coat or gray/white w/ blazer. We'll assume they pick blue there & drop the grooming standard.
6) Drop BBDU & Blue utility jumpsuit (keep blue nomex flt suit). In place of that for field uniform use the same white aviator shirt but with BBDU pants & boots (must blouse pants). That's dramatically simplified (cheaper) and gives a professional appearance while not trying to look like a swat cop. Authorize CG-style blue Goretex parka w/ that combo & optional blue patrol cap or cold weather watch cap.
7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.
Dennis,
Referring to CAP's leaders a "retards" isn't likely to win your proposals any support.
okay, now that I read everyone's, let me second a couple...
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate:
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards! (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets. All, some, or none was fine the way it was.
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)
Eliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat
Eliminate CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts -- grade on both sides is fine, just like the BDUs.
Eliminate the New CAP Command Shield for flight suits, vehicles, etc.
Eliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB. Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)
Eliminate the grade requirements for Cadets First Sergeant.
Eliminate BOTH the emergency services patches. (They don't relate to anything the USAF uses, they don't demonstrate any particular capability or skill, and they're huge!)
Eliminate the yellow "chicken print" CAP flight suit scarf!
Eliminate berets
Eliminate whistles, colored belts, ranger tabs, shoulder cords on BDUs, ascots with BDUs, orange undershirts, orange "CAL-Trans" GT uniforms, and other abuses of the uniform by specifically prohibiting them from being implemented/worn.
Eliminate abiguity as to what Wing Commanders can and cannot authorize for uniform wear. Specifically say what they can authorized, and follow-up by specifically saying anything else is out. This hopefully will eliminate other future "Wing King Creations" to the uniform repertoire.
Eliminate Wings being able to require members to wear wing patch.
Eliminate the pre-solo wings.
Agreed with Mike to eliminate White undershirts/t-shirts with the field uniform. To me it looks super-trashy. Wear black.
Okay all of that. Specifically I'm going along w/ the no cutouts items cause I know national CAC is already wroking on getting grade on both sides of blues to match BDUs. Personally I'd ratehr see it go the other way for logistics reasons, but it does look better & absolutely HAS to be consistent between the two.
Also agree that SMWOG has to be indicated. We used to use the sewn on "CAP" on both collars. What's wrong with that, and a good bit cheaper by the way. Don't give me any crap about sewing on for six months either when it's worse for FOs.
And by the way do something about FOs. That's messed up that we screw them over based only on age & yet promote much less qualified individuals to officer grade also based only on age. I'm not saying officers shouldn't be 21 to be effective as officers, but our officers aren't effective anyway so until we fix that we shouldn't be discriminating. If we are going to keep the system then use the old school AF WO insignia that CAP used to use for years & years. Just don't punish kids that have to meet the same standards as everyone else.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 01:58:41 AM
Dennis,
Referring to CAP's leaders a "retards" isn't likely to win your proposals any support.
Yeah cause I've always been real fond of stupid decisions or concerned with what those that made them think of poor little me. I know their reasons behind that decision, and all I can say is they are not listening to a lawyer that has any clue on the issue. If you can just have the CAP/CC PM me, I'll give him a number he can call & get some direct congressional guidance once & for all on PCA.
I would by the way like to go to white on an OD or at least dark blue background for BDU items, but I did't mention it cause that was the conditions the thread started under.
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate Cadet Officer Shoulderboards! (Ridiculously expensive ($26 a pair), serve no practical purpose over pinning the grade directly onto the epaulet, and are difficult as hell to work with and put on)
New style enlisted service dress is the only reason I can see for keeping them. It's a double edged sword.
Indeed, it might be a double-edged sword because of the new enlisted-style service dress. But one side of the sword is definitely sharper -- $26 just the shoulderboards (
without insignia) is too steep to ask a new Mitchell cadet to foot, especially when I can completely outfit a new cadet with everything they need for just a little bit more than that.
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PM
Eliminate the All or none ribbon rule for cadets. All, some, or none was fine the way it was.
If you're gonna do it, there needs to be a standard applied to some IMO. Highest achievement/award ribbon works for me and mirrors the standards for seniors.
Meh. If the C/Col just wants to wear his curry ribbon and the unit citation, why not let him or her?
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate CAP cutouts on the M-65 field jacket epaulets (Civil Air Patrol is clearly on the front of the jacket; same reasoning as the removal of CAP cutouts from the BDUs)
Ok, but what about SMs without grade and NCOs?
SMs without grade wear the CAP cutouts, as that
is their current grade isnginia, and CAP NCOs' wear the chevrons just like they do with their BDUs. Since "Civil Air Patrol" is already on the chest, I simply am advocating dropping the redundant CAP cutouts on the M-65 for SM officers - which we already did with the BDUs. Seems like somebody just forgot to extend that rationale to the field jacket at the time they made the decision.
Plus it makes outfitting an M-65 a little cheaper and quicker for members which is something I always advocate where possible.
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Silver sleeve braid on the TPU service coat
And the silver chin strap on the service cap.
Roger that. With the CAP cutouts and CAP nametag changes since the uniform was original rolled out, I think that coupled with the double-breastedness, different buttons, white shirt, and CAP SM device on CAP should make this uniform distinct enough to not need the garish silver braid on the sleeves. That just smacks of needless bling and attracts unwanted attention in my opinion.
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 28, 2007, 10:45:17 PMEliminate Grade insignia for C/AB, as in the "CAP cutouts" (USAF has no insignia for AB, why do we need insignia for C/AB. Makes it cheaper and quicker for new recruits to get into a uniform and find out if they like the program)
This assumes they won't wear service dress as a C/AB?
I suppose CAP cutouts in that instance would make sense.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 28, 2007, 11:07:51 PM
I agree with everything except for the C/AB issue. As it is, the officer without grade uniform is identified by having no grade insignia at all. A 17 year old C/AB cannot be confused with a 19 year old officer without grade. Considering that by eliminating the CAP cutouts on the rest of cadets uniforms and if we eliminate the cutouts from the TPU there will be no reason to make the cutouts anymore, we should come up with some distinctive insignia for officers without grade... perhaps something more in line with what CG Aux assigns to their members... A prop or something? Perhaps go to gray epaulets with nothing but CAP on them. I think those used to be made.
George,
Right now as it is, both SMWOGs and C/ABs wear the same insignia - the CAP cutouts. You can tell the difference because of the grey or blue nameplates which stand out at a distance.
I would advocate ditching the cutouts for both of them. One, it makes it cheaper for new cadets. For SMs, it eliminates leaving those pin holes in the collar once they promote to 2d Lt. As a replacement for the SMWOGs, the blank embroidered epaulet is perfect and provides distinctiveness.
I just think the CAP cutout for both the C/AB and the SMWOG serves no purpose.
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 01:49:19 AM
Sorry I meant to hit this earlier but had to run. So w/o reading anyone else's...
1) Patches: The multi-color explosion is rediculous, might as well wear a girl scout sash. Take off the flag, wg patch, activity/school patches, anything like CISM/safety, burn those retaded ES patches on all uniforms... JUST tapes & embroidered versions of badges worn in the same position as on Blues. That's it, nothing else, stick your esprit de corps complaints. You're absolutely kidding me if you think people participate at your unit or not cause they're wearing a patch. We need to be building together, not apart into 52 seperate CAPs & certainly not 1500 or whatever seperate & unrelated units. We're eitehr a cohesive organization that looks dresses the part of the unified professionalism we want to display or we're not worth existing.
Follow the AF lead on this. If the AF allows unit patches, CAP should also.
Quote2) Badges: some of the specs can be combined into related career fields (admin/pers for instance, ops, etc). The CP & AE badges specifically need to fit the mold as an over the name badge. Which brings me to the wear policy. Yes there are four spots on a uniform wear some kind of badge can go, but that doesn't mean any badge can go in any spot. If you got wings those should be worn on top (pick one, mil or CAP, not both). Those two over the name slots are for spec track & operational badges. That's wings, GT, PAO, CP, Comm, ES, etc. The pocket is ONLY for specific duty badges like recruiter, honor guard, etc. The only thing that applies to in CAP is the NEC badge. A re-designed IG badge would be appropriate there, as would a nat/reg staff badge. NB badge needs to be eliminated now that there's a master command badge. Which brings me to over the name side. The ONLY thing that needs to go there is the command badge. Over for current, under for past, that's it. If that means you get a choice of one spec track badge & have to leave some spots empty, that's perfect, and the policy should at least encourage that the one badge you chose there be for the job you're currently assigned to (assuming you have that rating). If we have to redesign anything, for the love of God get rid of the cartoons.
I think we've had many long discussions on other forum threads over this issue.
Quote3) Flight suit: get rid of the plastic grade in favor of dark blue sewn on, or at least make that optional.
Absolutely
QuoteAnd don't change the command patch you retards.
No comment. ;D
Quote...that's it on AF-style, now lets take care of corporate-style. Notice I said corporate-STYLE, not uniforms authorized by the CAP corporation, which is exactly what the original meaning of the phrase was.
4) Get rid of the golf shirt. I don't care how comfortable it is I don't care how easy or cheap it is. The purpose of a uniform & the intricate care it requires is not to look good, it is meant to require sacrifice, dillagnce, & vigilants specifically to remind you of you regularly & mechanically of the obligations you've committed to. The golf shirt was never made to be a uniform, it was made to be a novelty item sold by the bookstore. Cut that thing right now before it further corputs us.
I can go either way on this.
Quote5) pick one of either the corporate-style blue/white w/ service coat or gray/white w/ blazer. We'll assume they pick blue there & drop the grooming standard.
Until they drop the grooming, this one ain't happening.
Quote6) Drop BBDU & Blue utility jumpsuit (keep blue nomex flt suit). In place of that for field uniform use the same white aviator shirt but with BBDU pants & boots (must blouse pants). That's dramatically simplified (cheaper) and gives a professional appearance while not trying to look like a swat cop. Authorize CG-style blue Goretex parka w/ that combo & optional blue patrol cap or cold weather watch cap.
WHITE AVIATOR shirt with blue bdu pants ?! Do you realize how fast you'd be trashing those shirts. Talk about adding cost for unnecessary uniform items. Jeesh.
Keep the bbdu. It works.
Quote7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.
Possible, but can you see the folks (cadidiots and senile members) grabbing the AFI and setting up thier uniforms accordingly? They'll read the first line of the CAP supplement (Basic uniform guidance for CAP uniforms comes frm AFI...) and start raiding MCSS for all the AF bling they see in the AFI. We have many professionals in CAP who will read the next line (However, wear policies for CAP are modified in this regulation. Any discrepency between the AFI and CAPM 39-1 will be resolved in favor of CAPM 39-1). Do we have uniform image problems now? Can you see the problems that will cause. And, of course, those cadidiots and senile members will be the ones the press picks up on.
I would seriously consider the corporate service coat if the silver braid was not there. If the silver braid was not there I would even be a proponent of dropping all the USAF uniform combinations including the woodland BDU's.
Quote from: arajca on January 29, 2007, 03:20:55 AM
Follow the AF lead on this. If the AF allows unit patches, CAP should also.
AF is moving away from this on ABUs, or so the rumor goes. It looks pretty silly in the AF to tell you the truth, but passable in subdued. It's not in multi-color. At least if you haev to do it then go with a semi-subdued low color kind of patch design.
QuoteQuote7) when done, adopt the AFI as the CAP uniform manual w/39-1 as a supplement. That way AF changes are automatic to CAP & 39-1 spells out the distinctive way in which it's executed. That cuts down a massive amount of work for AF in dealing w/ our retarded uniform issues, & streamlines the process for us to stay up to date w/ them. If they want to hold us off on something, all they have to do it add a chapter to the end of the AFI saying XYZ will not apply to CAP or will be executed by CAP in the following way or timeline. Makes everyone's life easier.
Possible, but can you see the folks (cadidiots and senile members) grabbing the AFI and setting up thier uniforms accordingly? They'll read the first line of the CAP supplement (Basic uniform guidance for CAP uniforms comes frm AFI...) and start raiding MCSS for all the AF bling they see in the AFI. We have many professionals in CAP who will read the next line (However, wear policies for CAP are modified in this regulation. Any discrepency between the AFI and CAPM 39-1 will be resolved in favor of CAPM 39-1). Do we have uniform image problems now? Can you see the problems that will cause. And, of course, those cadidiots and senile members will be the ones the press picks up on.
I don't know if it's that big an issue. Saves the duplicated effort. Obviously they can't wear an AF badge they don't qualify for.
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on January 29, 2007, 03:26:12 AM
I would seriously consider the corporate service coat if the silver braid was not there. If the silver braid was not there I would even be a proponent of dropping all the USAF uniform combinations including the woodland BDU's.
Does anyone know the purpose of the silver braid on the corporate service coat? In the Air Force, the only personnel who wear the silver braid on the service dress are Honor Guardsmen and band members.
Seems a little ridiculous to have it on a dress uniform.
just commissioning braid & emphasizing the dif from normal service dress. Not really sure why we have the blue commissioning braid on service coats since we don't have commissions, but that's a hold over from an earlier time with blue grade slides & metal rank. I do think the silver braid looks a bit silly - looks McPeaks style - but my biggest issue with that uniform is the AF officer slides on the shirt. I've already had big problems with a member wearing the wrong slides on the wrong shirt by "accident." That happens once on an AFB & I don't want to be in same hemisphere. Just embroider CAP on the stock AF slides & lets get on with life. I like that actually, it helps make a case down the road to standardize to the blue slides later after everyone has accepted them as the norm.
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:06:57 AM
just commissioning braid & emphasizing the dif from normal service dress. Not really sure why we have the blue commissioning braid on service coats since we don't have commissions, but that's a hold over from an earlier time with blue grade slides & metal rank. I do think the silver braid looks a bit silly - looks McPeaks style - but my biggest issue with that uniform is the AF officer slides on the shirt. I've already had big problems with a member wearing the wrong slides on the wrong shirt by "accident." That happens once on an AFB & I don't want to be in same hemisphere. Just embroider CAP on the stock AF slides & lets get on with life. I like that actually, it helps make a case down the road to standardize to the blue slides later after everyone has accepted them as the norm.
I agree. I wish the white aviator shirts were cut the same as the blue ones though... I'm not umm... plump enough to pull off the aviator with military appearance and bearing. Not that I'm skinny, but I think the shirt's cut waaaay too big for the neck sizes.
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on January 29, 2007, 03:26:12 AM
I would seriously consider the corporate service coat if the silver braid was not there. If the silver braid was not there I would even be a proponent of dropping all the USAF uniform combinations including the woodland BDU's.
When they were discussing this originally, someone mentioned dark grey braid. How is got to be "drum major" silver, I'll never know.
If they would replace the silver braid with DAR grey it would look OK.
You can get a shirt tapered for under five bucks. Which I recommend, not cause it looks sharp, but well fitted cloths are oh sooo much more comfortable & easy to maintain.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 04:15:45 AM
When they were discussing this originally, someone mentioned dark grey braid. How is got to be "drum major" silver, I'll never know.
If they would replace the silver braid with DAR grey it would look OK.
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Simple solution -- lose it all together. Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around. I like it.
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 04:15:45 AM
When they were discussing this originally, someone mentioned dark grey braid. How is got to be "drum major" silver, I'll never know.
If they would replace the silver braid with DAR grey it would look OK.
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Actually not. All CAP/Vanguard would need to do is to go to a ribbon manufacturer and look through their product listing for 1/2" ribbed ribbon. Chances are very good they could find a suitable dark grey (or even charcoal grey) ribbon that would look good on the uniform.
Quote from: Pylon on January 29, 2007, 04:20:07 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Simple solution -- lose it all together. Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around. I like it.
Another solution is to get rid of the corporate service dress uniform completely. Not only is it an unnecessary economic burden, it conflicts with the U.S.C. and UCMJ.
Quote from: Guardrail on January 29, 2007, 04:26:55 AM
Quote from: Pylon on January 29, 2007, 04:20:07 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Simple solution -- lose it all together. Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around. I like it.
Another solution is to get rid of the corporate service dress uniform completely. Not only is it an unnecessary economic burden, it conflicts with the U.S.C. and UCMJ.
Glad we could get some changes made to get geneva convention off that list though right? I mean if I get shot down by an iranian freighter & am considered by international law to be a combatant, God forbid they treat me like an officer instead of some unworthy enlisted person. Yeah that was the top priority, good job there.
Careful all, this thread is going to devolved quickly if we don't get back on topic. SScrew the TPU, what else do people want
dropped
Quote from: Pylon on January 29, 2007, 04:20:07 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 04:18:29 AM
They'd have to make that. The silver is the same stuff from AF mess dress.
Simple solution -- lose it all together. Less sewing, less cost, less crap with which to draw needless attention to us, less messing around. I like it.
This would actually be the best solution. Remember, originally the braid was to distinguish OFFICERs from the rest on a military uniform. Since the CAP Distinctive is not a US military uniform, I don't see why it has to be there.
Plus, chaning to another colour would be an additional expense, much more so than just the expense to remove the silve braid.
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 08:46:26 PM
Group CC badge.
In the interests of fairness, let's add Squadron CC badge....both or neither is what I say!
What's wrong with the command badges? I'd go with the under for past like the Af does & cut the command service ribbon, but I got no issue with the badges. Like that it would cut the NB budge.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 04:43:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 08:46:26 PM
Group CC badge.
In the interests of fairness, let's add Squadron CC badge....both or neither is what I say!
There is a method to my madness. The USAF does not have a group CC's badge... The have one badge for commanders at various echelons, and even extend wear to former commanders.
Here's a radical thought:
1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs
2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)
3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC
4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?
5) Pick a single color (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX
6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards
7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)
8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag
Disabled smileys - MIKE
Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 04:50:33 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 04:43:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on January 28, 2007, 08:46:26 PM
Group CC badge.
In the interests of fairness, let's add Squadron CC badge....both or neither is what I say!
There is a method to my madness. The USAF does not have a group CC's badge... The have one badge for commanders at various echelons, and even extend wear to former commanders.
If you're saying "one commander's badge" regardless of echelon, I can live with that....I like the re-positioned 'past commander' badge....Command Service ribbon, we could, as DNall suggests, do without
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 05:00:54 AM
Here's a radical thought:
1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs
2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)
3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC
4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?
5) Pick a single color (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX
6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards
7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)
8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag
Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming.
Why?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive. It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.
Disabled smileys - MIKE
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 05:00:54 AM
Here's a radical thought:
1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs
2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)
3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC
4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?
5) Pick a single color (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX
6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards
7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)
8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag
Flame 1 (not really)
Why? It'd just cost more w/o surplus stuff. Besides AF doesn't care so much about us looking like them or not. That's CAP that's obsessed w/ that issue. AF just doesn't want their airmen thinking what we say is a valid order from a legal officer. They don't want us making fools of them or make them look bad no matter what we wear. Far as capabilities they don't care very much about that either. What we do for them in the bigger scheme of things is quite small. They give us more support than we deserve for what they get back & they poay exactly as much attention to our capabiltiies as we deserve. CAP is it's own worst enemy. If you want a better CAP, more money, a better relationship w/ AF, anything, the things preventing that are on the CAP side & in our power to fix. Well in the power of our leaders anyway & hopefully its in pir power to fix them.
Disabled smileys - MIKE
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 05:08:13 AM
Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming.
<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm824YYUS%2526i%253D26%252F26%255F7%255F27%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_7_27.gif)
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 05:08:13 AMWhy?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive. It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.
Word!
Quote from: afgeo4I wish the white aviator shirts were cut the same as the blue ones though... I'm not umm... plump enough to pull off the aviator with military appearance and bearing. Not that I'm skinny, but I think the shirt's cut waaaay too big for the neck sizes.
If you're looking for a aviator shirt that looks like the blue one check out this page (http://www.pilotshirts.com/products.asp?dept=9) if you've got the physique.
Cut all the variations of the Corporate Uniform. Since we MUST have a corporate uniform I say chose 1...ONE and stick with it. AE 1 to match the AF blues 1 to match the AF BDUs and 1 to match the Flight Suit PERIOD!
Get rid of the golf shirt if you aren't on the golf course
Get rid of all non-mission/skill patches on the BDU
Leave the nametag, CAP tag and the GTM/Wings/EMS patches
get rid of everything else including the US Flag
SWITCH PATCHES ON THE BDUS to MIDNIGHT BLUE AND OD, SAME AS AF
NO PATCHES ON BAGS EXCEPT MAYBE A NAME TAG
No NCSA bling on uniforms ae hawk scarves and NBB headgear
The Spec track badges for the blues need to be subdued- ae non colorized
just like the AF skills badges. Personally Id like to see them mirror AF in shape/design too. AE- more like the GTM badges with the wreath and all
...................
Thank you for your consideration :D
- edited to correct spelling
My take on the whole situation:
Say sayonara to the corporate grays. If we're gonna standardize on the TPU as the corporate uniform, do the following:
- Bring back the old blue CAP shouldermarks.
- Relax the grooming standard to allow neatly-trimmed beards/goatees.
- Kill the silver sleeve braid.
Golf shirt uniform: indifferent about it. However, use it only as an alternate flying/ES base uniform.
Keep the BDU simple. Nuke the rainbow colored activity patches. I don't mind the wing/group/squadron patch remaining.
Utility uniform: get rid of the aircrew look and adopt the dark blue nametape/CAP tape.
Patches on aircrew bags - OK, but allow a wing/group standard cloth embroidered nametag.
For getting rid of the blazer combo, remember, that is the uniform for IACE. In many countries we are restricted from weaing the USAF uniform.
I could say that keeping it for IACE only would be cool, though.
And, I like the golf shirt for certain activities, but I'm kind of a casual-type guy.
Here's what I would do if it were my say:
-Actually ENFORCE AF h/w standards on the AF-style Uniform
-Change the rank on the BDU hat to have CAP above it for both Cadet Officers and Senior Members
-Use the current Sq/CC Badge for both Sq/CC and Gp/CC
-Kill the TPU
-Change the way the Wings are worn to Military wings are ABOVE CAP wings
-Kill the Commissioning Braid UNLESS you have a Commission from the Military
-Require a white-on-blue nametape on the GORE-TEX Parka
-Remove the metal pin-on rank insignia from the BBDU hat
-Kill ALL wing patches, or move them to the pocket
-Keep the American Flag--you don't like it, go to Iraq
-All or none ribbons for BOTH CADETS AND SENIOR MEMBERS----you want to be like the Air Force, well they wear all or none
-On the Ribbons, either all Military, or all CAP, or all Military and CAP
-Have Vanguard make white or yellow-on-blue Military badges for the BDU's. The reason i said white or yellow, is that some badges, such as USN, USMC, USCG, are gold, and should be kept in that color on the BDU's.
-Let Air Force Commanders wear their Commanders' Badge in the location taht it's currently worn on their Air Force uniform
-Let the Navy Command Ashore and Command at Sea badges be worn
-Let ALL Military badges be worn on the AF-style uniforms
THat's all that I can think of for now, but will post more when I think of stuff.
Forgot one:
-Let current MILITARY Flyers wear their leather jacket with a CAP Nameplate with the Service Uniform and Flight Suit
This thread has definitely gone outside what I was looking for. There is a lot of disagreement on what someone else would eliminate. I don't want that, I want each persons input on what they would get rid of.
I'm trying to figure out how much commonality of opinion there is on what people find extraneous. We could make it far easier to be uniform, if there were fewer differences between uniforms.
And in a few days, I'll go on the record myself on what I would eliminate.
For the time being, please just make an input on that. I'm trying to do this as fact gathering, not create disagreement.
Guys, please try to keep to only those existing items you want to eliminate, and not adding new items... If you want to add a new item... Start a new thread... I will say no, lock it and claim my 5 bucks from Monty. ;D
I woul eliminate anything that doesn't enhance a clean, crisp look. It seems to me that the purpose of wearing a uniform is to be...well...uniform! The only "distinctives" to a uniform I would want to see are grade insignia and specialty insignia, i.e. Chaplain, Medical Officer, Pilot Wings, etc...
Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 08:20:44 PM
Guys, please try to keep to only those existing items you want to eliminate, and not adding new items... If you want to add a new item... Start a new thread... I will say no, lock it and claim my 5 bucks from Monty. ;D
No trippin' you up, eh? ;D
Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 08:20:44 PM
Guys, please try to keep to only those existing items you want to eliminate, and not adding new items... If you want to add a new item... Start a new thread... I will say no, lock it and claim my 5 bucks from Monty. ;D
Let's just say I've thought about that. And I'm strongly considering doubling that pot.
(Yes, I have Paypal too!)
My 0.02 worth:
Simplicity is its own elegance - get rid of the cartoon patches and all the extraneous nonsense.
Eliminate Membership Ribbon - you have to pass Level 1 to wear the uniform, therefore the uniform is the membership ribbon.
Eliminate Leadership Ribbon now that we have badges for each specialty.
Eliminate Command Ribbon.
Allow wearing only the highest received senior training ribbon.
Allow wearing the SAR ribbon only until you receive a FIND ribbon.
Eliminate the Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon.
Eliminate the special activity ribbon, national cadet competition, and national color guard ribbons from the senior uniform.
Allow the Encampment Ribbon (with no attachments) to be worn only by seniors who are not eligible to wear a Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, or Spaatz and attended the encampment as a senior.
Eliminate the Unit Citation Ribbon.
Eliminate rank insignia on the flight suit - it's already on the leather badge.
Eliminate the ES Patches.
Eliminate color patches on BDU style uniforms.
Something drastic from me: Eliminate all CAP awards and decorations... in preparation for total overhaul of the CAP awards system along Air Force lines. >:D
Something so drastic words can't describe.... establish a one month moritorium on uniform threads! ;D
Before everyone gets upset, that was a joke. Have a CAP kind of day!
Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 10:29:20 PM
Something drastic from me: Eliminate all CAP awards and decorations... in preparation for total overhaul of the CAP awards system along Air Force lines. >:D
I could go for that, but honestly we're not that far off. Just needs a good going over. Few add deletes, tewak the standards, no problems.
You get that thread to lock yet, cause I can go start
"do we need a pink sash for all our stupid patches"
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 11:26:17 PM
Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 10:29:20 PM
Something drastic from me: Eliminate all CAP awards and decorations... in preparation for total overhaul of the CAP awards system along Air Force lines. >:D
I could go for that, but honestly we're not that far off. Just needs a good going over. Few add deletes, tewak the standards, no problems.
Nah... Complete overhaul. Maybe take some design elements from some current awards, and the corresponding USAF award, but still all new and distinctive. I was just looking at the USAF awards to see how they could match up, but if I start a thread, I'll have to lock it. :D
Quote from: DNall on January 29, 2007, 11:26:17 PMYou get that thread to lock yet, cause I can go start "do we need a pink sash for all our stupid patches"
No, not yet, and I really need the cash... I have uniform bling to buy. :D
You know we had a thread a while back that talked about which AF decs were awardable to civilians & asking for help on the AFI to clear up a proceedure similiar to how CGAux works that. It might be fun to play with a new matrix like you're describing & fit those in. I might just do that thead tomorrow or something.
I'll have to make sure you can lock the pink sash thread first so you can rush out & buy that new mini-GT badge. ;D
I can't remember where it was, but we discussed making CAP awards comparable to AF awards once... I remember I suggested that the O-pilot ribbon, SAR ribbon, Drug Ribbon, etc. all be combined into a "CAP Air Medal" awarded for a certain number of missions/sorties regardless of type. There were some other good ideas, too, but that should be another (or resurrected) thread.
As far as eliminate, ALL color patches from the BDU. Name, Civil Air Patrol, Rank, Wings, GT badge, and that's it. I can live with the flag, but the idea of some wings having wing patches and others making it optional is no good. Wing patches should be part of our history.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 05:08:13 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 29, 2007, 05:00:54 AM
Here's a radical thought:
1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs
2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)
3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC
4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?
5) Pick a single color (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX
6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards
7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)
8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag
Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming.
Why?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive. It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.
Disabled smileys - MIKE
Flame away, folks, I've been singed by experts for years!
I'm not looking to distance us from the AF, trying to remove a serious area of contention (with all due respect to DNall, my experience has been that USAF gets really uptight about seniors' appearance....understandably, from their perspective.
Speaking of offensive, i wonder what USAF REALLY thinks of TPU?? Do they consider it an end run around their wishes? A series of legalistic loopholes skating right up to the edge of what we can get away with?
On a more practical note, we would, of course, phase in the changeover through a period of several years....eventually most of us need to replace clothes, including uniform items, due to wear & tear!
Disabled smileys - MIKE
Quote from: Guardrail on January 29, 2007, 05:15:26 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 05:08:13 AM
Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming.
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Quote from: Major Carrales on January 29, 2007, 05:08:13 AMWhy?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive. It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.
Word!
You should all feel perfectly free to disagree with me or anyone else.
Some reasons, however, would really contribute to keeping the conversation going.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 30, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
Some reasons, however, would really contribute to keeping the conversation going.
I think substantial cost to be bore by the individual members' wallets I think is a pretty good reason to start with. If I can get away with not buying anything new for my uniforms in the next few years, I'll be happy.
Quote from: Pylon on January 30, 2007, 03:12:45 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 30, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
Some reasons, however, would really contribute to keeping the conversation going.
I think substantial cost to be bore by the individual members' wallets I think is a pretty good reason to start with. If I can get away with not buying anything new for my uniforms in the next few years, I'll be happy.
Agreed....I'm talking abojut a gradual phase in.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 30, 2007, 02:52:28 PM
Flame away, folks, I've been singed by experts for years!
I'm not looking to distance us from the AF, trying to remove a serious area of contention (with all due respect to DNall, my experience has been that USAF gets really uptight about seniors' appearance....understandably, from their perspective.
True, but I think getting rid of the BDU's and all AF style uniforms would only make the Air Force more annoyed. It wasn't easy for CAP to earn AF approval to wear their uniforms, and getting rid of them in favor of all the CAP distinctive uniforms would, in the public view, distance CAP further from the Air Force.
Personally, I think it would be an idea worse than the TPU. But that's just my opinion.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 30, 2007, 02:52:28 PMSpeaking of offensive, I wonder what USAF REALLY thinks of TPU?? Do they consider it an end run around their wishes? A series of legalistic loopholes skating right up to the edge of what we can get away with?
I think the Air Force views the TPU as a slap in the face. Think about it: it has everything that is not allowed on the AF style uniforms for CAP... Metal rank insignia... silver sleeve braid... AF shoulder marks... this is clearly someone's way of getting back at the Air Force.
And it also violates both the U.S.C. and UCMJ... it is forbidden to mix military uniform items with civilian clothing - period.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 30, 2007, 02:52:28 PMOn a more practical note, we would, of course, phase in the changeover through a period of several years....eventually most of us need to replace clothes, including uniform items, due to wear & tear!
If your proposed changeover were to happen, this would be a good course of action. Besides, the gradual phase-in is something CAP has perfected! :D
Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 07:49:30 PMI think the Air Force views the TPU as a slap in the face. Think about it: it has everything that is not allowed on the AF style uniforms for CAP... Metal rank insignia... silver sleeve braid... AF shoulder marks... this is clearly someone's way of getting back at the Air Force.
And it also violates both the U.S.C. and UCMJ... it is forbidden to mix military uniform items with civilian clothing - period.
I don't think so. Had it
really run afoul of the USAF powers-that-be, they woulda slapped CAP down hard for being so insolent as to mock the AF blues. (Maroon epaulets, anyone?)
Apparently, some items probably did give 'em heartburn (the U.S. cutouts and the nameplate, for example), which is why there were some quick changes made. The uniform's distinctive enough - even with the silly silver sleeve braid and double-breasted cut - that most - I hope - can tell the difference.
And I'd rather wear this combination instead of aviator grays.
It still needs some other changes (blue CAP slides for shirt & service coat) but otherwise there's little AF can do about it. You understand the maroon slides didn't happen overnight. That took a series of needling them on things before they were forced to give us a shove. I can tell you for a fact that the white/blue combination is not well recieved by rank-in-file, and that senior CAP-USAF people aren't happy abou tthis whole episode. Of course this is third person, but from a highly reliable source.
Anyway, I thought we weren't going to argue points. Just post up what you want cut (not what you want changed) and leave the thread for everyone else so we can compile a list.
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 08:28:15 PM
It still needs some other changes (blue CAP slides for shirt & service coat) but otherwise there's little AF can do about it. You understand the maroon slides didn't happen overnight. That took a series of needling them on things before they were forced to give us a shove. I can tell you for a fact that the white/blue combination is not well recieved by rank-in-file, and that senior CAP-USAF people aren't happy abou tthis whole episode. Of course this is third person, but from a highly reliable source.
Anyway, I thought we weren't going to argue points. Just post up what you want cut (not what you want changed) and leave the thread for everyone else so we can compile a list.
Exactimundo, Dennis... and yes, I agree with the blue CAP slides - I'm half-tempted to dig out a pair of old blue CAP slides when I promote to Captain and see what happens.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 30, 2007, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 08:28:15 PM
It still needs some other changes (blue CAP slides for shirt & service coat) but otherwise there's little AF can do about it. You understand the maroon slides didn't happen overnight. That took a series of needling them on things before they were forced to give us a shove. I can tell you for a fact that the white/blue combination is not well recieved by rank-in-file, and that senior CAP-USAF people aren't happy abou tthis whole episode. Of course this is third person, but from a highly reliable source.
Anyway, I thought we weren't going to argue points. Just post up what you want cut (not what you want changed) and leave the thread for everyone else so we can compile a list.
Exactimundo, Dennis... and yes, I agree with the blue CAP slides - I'm half-tempted to dig out a pair of old blue CAP slides when I promote to Captain and see what happens.
Personally, I like the gray slides. It does present a minor difference from the Air Force blues. And it looks better than the old maroon epaulettes and blue nametag. That looked kinda silly.
I think we should eliminate all blue slides for everybody, even cadet officers. And use the gray nametag for everyone as well. Standard nametags across the board (except for the CSM tags, they should stay as they are, maybe make them gray too). No reason to have three or four, when one or two will do.
The USAF does not think as much about CAP uniforms as those that post here. When I asked a question of several high ranking USAF-CAP officers, I was told they view it (CAP Distinctive) as "our thing" and, if they had an opinion at all about it, "how could they do this to themselves?"
Simply put, the USAF knows what we are. They know how to use us and, what's more, how to use us to best suit their needs. The "uniform crisis" is more the result of of "CAP Officer insecurity" than anything the USAF actually thinks of us.
Personnally, I think we are lucky to be allowed the wear of any AF style uniform. Many of you dislike the "CAP Distinctives" but if you really think about it. They are closer to what an "auxiliary" might wear. I am suprised indeed after much though that we are allowed to wear almost the identical uniform as the USAF (save for GREY shoulder marks, distinctive insignia and nameplates)
Youse guys should best be counting your blessings than counting reasons why it is bad.
You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 11:03:44 PM
You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.
Yes, I'm quite sure.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 30, 2007, 09:29:48 PMPersonally, I like the gray slides. It does present a minor difference from the Air Force blues. And it looks better than the old maroon epaulettes and blue nametag. That looked kinda silly.
I don't know if gray shoulder marks are a
minor difference from the Air Force blues... gray doesn't go with blue in any way. But I do agree that it looks better than the old maroon shoulder marks (aka "Berry Boards") mixed with the blue nametag.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 30, 2007, 09:29:48 PMI think we should eliminate all blue slides for everybody, even cadet officers. And use the gray nametag for everyone as well. Standard nametags across the board (except for the CSM tags, they should stay as they are, maybe make them gray too). No reason to have three or four, when one or two will do.
Why eliminate the blue slides and nametags for cadet officers? Clearly the fact that they're still in existence shows how much more the Air Force cares about the cadet program than the senior program.
I think we should standardize everyone to blue... blue nametags... blue shouldermarks... on the AF uniform. For the grays, keep the gray epaulets and nametag. It's the only uniform they go good with.
Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 07:49:30 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 30, 2007, 02:52:28 PMSpeaking of offensive, I wonder what USAF REALLY thinks of TPU?? Do they consider it an end run around their wishes? A series of legalistic loopholes skating right up to the edge of what we can get away with?
I think the Air Force views the TPU as a slap in the face. Think about it: it has everything that is not allowed on the AF style uniforms for CAP... Metal rank insignia... silver sleeve braid... AF shoulder marks... this is clearly someone's way of getting back at the Air Force.
And it also violates both the U.S.C. and UCMJ... it is forbidden to mix military uniform items with civilian clothing - period.
And this is precisely my point...get the seniors OUT of AF uniform so this can never happen again!
Also, I have questioned the need for a non-combatant auxiliary to wear Battle Dress (now AF Combat) Uniforms since the day it replaced the old 'pickle suit' fatigues.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 30, 2007, 11:49:10 PM
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 11:03:44 PM
You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.
Yes, I'm quite sure.
Clearly we're talking to different people....which makes sense, you're in Texas, I'm in NER....my sources tell a tale more like what DNall is hearing.....that this thing (TPU) could very well still come back to haunt CAP.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 31, 2007, 01:41:08 AM
Also, I have questioned the need for a non-combatant auxiliary to wear Battle Dress (now AF Combat) Uniforms since the day it replaced the old 'pickle suit' fatigues.
Airman Battle Uniform (ABU) ZigZag. Not to be confused with the Army Combat Uniform (ACU).
Quote from: MIKE on January 31, 2007, 01:45:44 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 31, 2007, 01:41:08 AM
Also, I have questioned the need for a non-combatant auxiliary to wear Battle Dress (now AF Combat) Uniforms since the day it replaced the old 'pickle suit' fatigues.
Airman Battle Uniform (ABU) ZigZag. Not to be confused with the Army Combat Uniform (ACU).
My mistake, sorry....bottom line, they're camouflage uniforms....in CAP's line of work, we want to be VISIBLE.
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 11:03:44 PM
You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.
Please post a link or source for these published statements so we can evaluate them and make our own judgements as to their validity and relevence.
Not in this thread please.
ZigZag911 makes a good point about questioning the wearing of BDU's by CAP, the non-combatant civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. There are 2 reasons why I believe we should do away with camouflage BDU's:
1. There is no need for camouflage in any of CAP's missions.
2. Camouflage is not ideal for SAR missions.
The second point is especially true. The first rule of emergency response is: don't become a victim. Camouflage in the wrong setting can cause that to happen.
People may argue that CAP should adopt camouflage to keep current with the Air Force, but the truth is, the Air Force needs it... CAP does not.
Quote from: Guardrail on January 31, 2007, 05:51:25 AM
ZigZag911 makes a good point about questioning the wearing of BDU's by CAP, the non-combatant civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. There are 2 reasons why I believe we should do away with camouflage BDU's:
1. There is no need for camouflage in any of CAP's missions.
2. Camouflage is not ideal for SAR missions.
The second point is especially true. The first rule of emergency response is: don't become a victim. Camouflage in the wrong setting can cause that to happen.
People may argue that CAP should adopt camouflage to keep current with the Air Force, but the truth is, the Air Force needs it... CAP does not.
Common sense would dictate that CAP uses BDU's because it was at one time (I SAID ONE TIME) in high production, routinely available at MCSS, orderable from the AAFES Catalogue, and the basic battle dress for the Armed forces, which meant CAP could acquire new and used surplus from the Federal Government (Like DRMO).
That is the exact same reason CAP used the green fatigues (above reasoning is the same).
That is the exact same reason CAP continued to wear the Army Service Uniform well after 1947, because it was so highly available.
However, today there is a new issue. AAFES has discontinued stocking quantities of the BDU's in MCSS stores, and should by next fiscal year stop carrying them altogether because of the AF switch to the ABU.
CAP does not wear battle dress because we are trying to be like the military, it is just plain ECONOMICS.
Wait until AAFES stops carrying black Combat boots in FY '08. I bet we see a switch to the tan boots.
To go into more depth (which I am getting good at), the old style AF service coat that Cadets still wear will no doubt in a few years be discontinued. There are only so many out there, and upkeep will cost too much. CAP is like a HUGE recycle bin. We get the AF hand-me-downs and we have gotten fairly good at using what we get.
On a personal note, I am getting sick of people complaining about the blue and white name/CAP tapes and insignia. We are stuck with them and need to live with it. We are MORE STUCK with them now than ever before in our history. You may ask why? The simple truth is that Vanguard will fight and fight to keep producing those distinctive items. They won out bigtime, and I would bet there is a clause in their contract with NHQ that states something to the point of not changing colors or thread type for at least 5 years, unless it advantageous to them to do it. We should have pressed AF to allow subdued when the organization picked up the BDU's, but I guess there were more pressing matters.
WE can make a presentation to the AF when we switch over to the ABU that we need (because of economics) to use subdues patches. Just think, we can maybe get AAFES to carry our items in the stores on a national scale again!
Quote from: PhotogPilot on January 31, 2007, 02:06:38 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 11:03:44 PM
You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.
Please post a link or source for these published statements so we can evaluate them and make our own judgements as to their validity and relevence.
Okay
Quote from: MIKE on January 31, 2007, 02:27:36 AM
Not in this thread please.
Good point, by PM then
Lucky for us, the ABU does absolutely nothing for camouflaging in a woodland area. In fact, it's so visible, that we may not need to wear orange vests anymore!
Also, there are no patches authorized on the ABU, so making them subdued would be of no use.
I am still fully for the ABU because of its wash/wear qualities and because the boots are no-shine (which are the only two differences between the ABU and BDU aside from the silly colors and absolutely useless inside pockets). I just think we need to use the tiger stripe print ad background of nametapes with ultramarine lettering on them.
Oh... because vanguard will be producing ABU nametapes anyway, it would actually be cheaper for them to drop the white on blue CAP tape and order more tiger stripe.
(anyone know if AF combat vehicles will be repainted into the tiger stripe pattern too????)
We wear the BDUs as a utility uniform. Not for its camo.
When the Air Force changed its utility uniform, Civil Air Patrol followed suit, once the older stocks of the Air Force's former utility uniform were depleted. You couldn't get any more of them. It took a few years, but it changed.
There are better utility uniforms out there. Better than BDUs, ACU's, MCUUs, or ABU's. But they are expensive. For those of you that feel that we don't need the camo, I'm sure Headquarters would probably consider adopting an alternate utility, and would happily send you the bill for the acquisition of that new design.
It is a matter of practicality. New BDUs can be purchased at Air Force installations all over this country, or you can get them online at reasonable prices. There are also numerous surplus resources for BDUs. Shopping reasonably, you can get a pretty good condition setup for a reasonable price.
And the camo ones are whats available. If you have a source for surplus blue, brown, green, khaki, etc BDUs, I'd love to see it. But it must be a resource that can support every single member of Civil Air Patrol. A 100 pound bulk lot, one time purchase doesn't cut it. It must be able to support the whole team.
Now, that being said, can we get back to "What you'd eliminate" ?
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 31, 2007, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 31, 2007, 05:51:25 AM
ZigZag911 makes a good point about questioning the wearing of BDU's by CAP, the non-combatant civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. There are 2 reasons why I believe we should do away with camouflage BDU's:
1. There is no need for camouflage in any of CAP's missions.
2. Camouflage is not ideal for SAR missions.
The second point is especially true. The first rule of emergency response is: don't become a victim. Camouflage in the wrong setting can cause that to happen.
People may argue that CAP should adopt camouflage to keep current with the Air Force, but the truth is, the Air Force needs it... CAP does not.
Common sense would dictate that CAP uses BDU's because it was at one time (I SAID ONE TIME) in high production, routinely available at MCSS, orderable from the AAFES Catalogue, and the basic battle dress for the Armed forces, which meant CAP could acquire new and used surplus from the Federal Government (Like DRMO).
That is the exact same reason CAP used the green fatigues (above reasoning is the same).
That is the exact same reason CAP continued to wear the Army Service Uniform well after 1947, because it was so highly available.
However, today there is a new issue. AAFES has discontinued stocking quantities of the BDU's in MCSS stores, and should by next fiscal year stop carrying them altogether because of the AF switch to the ABU.
CAP does not wear battle dress because we are trying to be like the military, it is just plain ECONOMICS.
Wait until AAFES stops carrying black Combat boots in FY '08. I bet we see a switch to the tan boots.
To go into more depth (which I am getting good at), the old style AF service coat that Cadets still wear will no doubt in a few years be discontinued. There are only so many out there, and upkeep will cost too much. CAP is like a HUGE recycle bin. We get the AF hand-me-downs and we have gotten fairly good at using what we get.
On a personal note, I am getting sick of people complaining about the blue and white name/CAP tapes and insignia. We are stuck with them and need to live with it. We are MORE STUCK with them now than ever before in our history. You may ask why? The simple truth is that Vanguard will fight and fight to keep producing those distinctive items. They won out bigtime, and I would bet there is a clause in their contract with NHQ that states something to the point of not changing colors or thread type for at least 5 years, unless it advantageous to them to do it. We should have pressed AF to allow subdued when the organization picked up the BDU's, but I guess there were more pressing matters.
WE can make a presentation to the AF when we switch over to the ABU that we need (because of economics) to use subdues patches. Just think, we can maybe get AAFES to carry our items in the stores on a national scale again!
Some good practical points in there, that's a good assessment of the situation.
Far as subdued.... We had been just like the AF on ODs before BDUs came along. When they went subdued in that change over, we asked to follow suit, they said we didn't need fully subued stuff & there was lots of stock of blue AF tape avail to keep it cheap for CAP for a while. Then it became an issue that a change would cause every member basically to replace everything on their BDUs & that'd get costly. It's since the maroon epaulets that they wouldn't have allowed us to look almost just like them. We still haven't earned our way back into the place we were then, and maybe never will. The truth is we don't need subdued, but white/grey on OD or even dark blue tapes would a massive improvement to professional image, and I can talk their language on some additional justification (solidarity, etc). Understand though that when they go to ABUs, everything will be on an ABU background, not OD. That makes OD cost effective for all the excess stock out there & distinctive from the AF, while still presenting a more professional appearance. This is something to worry about as that change works in to place though, which is still a couple years from now. White/gray/ultramarine on ABU would also be quite distinctive, but I don't think they'd buy that. I'd be happy to put the proposal together, but it's AF's call.
ANYWAY, back to what do you want to CUT from the uniform manual, not change, not add, not down the road, C-U-T cut?
My argument for the BDU and by extension the ABU is simply that it is the Air Force style utility uniform, and not just a Battle Dress Uniform. Heck, look at the Navy... They are replacing their solid color work uniforms with BDU like uniforms in camo patterns supposedly because they hide shipboard grime better.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2007, 04:24:13 PM
Now, that being said, can we get back to "What you'd eliminate" ?
Quote from: DNall on January 31, 2007, 04:27:06 PM
ANYWAY, back to what do you want to CUT from the uniform manual, not change, not add, not down the road, C-U-T cut?
:)
Next time one of these type of threads comes up, the topic starter should set the ground rules/format for the replies... See my list on the first page... Anything that doesn't match the format gets nuked... I've seen this used for similar threads other sites. Sometimes there is a separate discussion thread that is linked to the topic, sometimes not.
Also, if you keep to the format and don't post something that somebody else already posted... Then Hawk200, doesn't need to recap the thread later.
... And do you guys need to quote someones entire post for some of these replies? N00bs! >:(
Items to phase out:
AF blue cardigan
Service Cap (male and female)
Old style service dress coat.
Old style dress trouser.
Gray corporate slacks. (allow wear of blazer with TPU aviator shirt and blue pants but without cover)
Leadership ribbon.
Polo shirt (no longer a uniform, but can remain as appropriate civillian attire for summer and recruiting activities, just like the military uses their polo shirts)
US Flag on BDU/CUU (we only operate in the United States anyway)
All patches on BDU/CUU except for unit patch
Brown t-shirts
All baseball style caps other than black, bdu or navy (for CUU)
CAP cutouts on cadet blues.
Cadet Officer shoulder boards.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 31, 2007, 04:52:32 PM
Old style service dress coat.
Old style dress trouser.
Forgot about those! Other than those, I think most of the other older style stuff was phased out by the 1997 CAPM 39-1.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 31, 2007, 08:21:39 AM
CAP does not wear battle dress because we are trying to be like the military, it is just plain ECONOMICS.
Certainly a fair, reasonable point, worthy of consideration.
If the surplus supply ever dries up across the board (that is, ABU or its eventual successor for some reason becomes unavailable), then i think the issue needs to be re-addressed --why wear camouflage for CAP activities?
Quote from: MIKE on January 31, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
My argument for the BDU and by extension the ABU is simply that it is the Air Force style utility uniform, and not just a Battle Dress Uniform. Heck, look at the Navy... They are replacing their solid color work uniforms with BDU like uniforms in camo patterns supposedly because they hide shipboard grime better.
Probably for economic reasons, too, use available stock up as the other services change to ABU. ACU and so forth.
I surrender on the camouflage issue!
I feel somewhat conflicted by this thread. I applaud the notion that our uniforms should be more in line with that which the USAF has. However, I REALLY don't want to spend another $200 to $300 on uniforms!
The only compromise I can think of is utilizing the uniforms we already have and are allowed to wear, and removing all extraneous patches, ribbons, etc...to offer a more "classic" uniform look.
I know that we are the Unpaid Auxiliary of the Air Force, however. Has it ever been proposed that we be given a uniform allowance? -- Similar to the annual credit CAC carrying personnel receive with which to purchase uniform items? I know that even a little bit could go a long way for ALOT of our membership.
Thoughts?
Quote from: DogCollar on February 01, 2007, 01:04:42 PM
I feel somewhat conflicted by this thread. I applaud the notion that our uniforms should be more in line with that which the USAF has. However, I REALLY don't want to spend another $200 to $300 on uniforms!
The only compromise I can think of is utilizing the uniforms we already have and are allowed to wear, and removing all extraneous patches, ribbons, etc...to offer a more "classic" uniform look.
Eventually, we will be in the ABU, but it will take 10 years to fully phase in. As a general rule, you double the Air Force's wear-out dates for new uniforms. If Big Mother Blue plans 5 years to integrate a new uniform, plan on 10 for CAP. As you replace worn out BDU's you will eventually replace them with ABU's.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 01, 2007, 01:58:14 PM
I know that we are the Unpaid Auxiliary of the Air Force, however. Has it ever been proposed that we be given a uniform allowance? -- Similar to the annual credit CAC carrying personnel receive with which to purchase uniform items? I know that even a little bit could go a long way for ALOT of our membership.
Cadets do, the free uniform program straight from the AF. If there's more money suddenly avail for cAP, what do you want to spend it on? Additional uniforms for cadets so everyone is covered; flight training; funded sarex; radios; most of a plane; or giving all seniors a credit at vanguard?
I am aware of the free-uniform-for-cadets program. I am aware of it because when I joined as a cadet I paid over 300 dollars for a uniform, the day after I received my Curry they began that program :(
My question was trying to ask if such a free uniform program had ever existed for Seniors. - I know the reasons why there isn't one now, and I think, given the costs and Vanguards non-existant service that the policy needs to be changed.
I understand your argument as to the other items that need to be purchased however, I mean this as something earmarked for uniform items ONLY. Not simply extra money that CAP can use as it pleases; but rather a Uniform allowance, just like that given to "regular" service personnel.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 01, 2007, 06:08:28 PM
I am aware of the free-uniform-for-cadets program. I am aware of it because when I joined as a cadet I paid over 300 dollars for a uniform, the day after I received my Curry they began that program :(
My question was trying to ask if such a free uniform program had ever existed for Seniors. - I know the reasons why there isn't one now, and I think, given the costs and Vanguards non-existant service that the policy needs to be changed.
I understand your argument as to the other items that need to be purchased however, I mean this as something earmarked for uniform items ONLY. Not simply extra money that CAP can use as it pleases; but rather a Uniform allowance, just like that given to "regular" service personnel.
Free uniforms for seniors is a bad idea. For the money that it would take to just buy someone a blues shirt (or aviator) one could by mission related materials like radios, tents and the like. Or more items for cadets.
Plus, what about those that don't meet the standards? This will create a disparity in costs for a uniform allowance.
I think this is a "black hat" moment (for those familiar with Dr. de Bono's "Six Hats"), you need to take such an idea and ask "what could go wrong with this?" I have done so and found lots of possible precariousness.
right, it's just a matter of priorities.
I reckon Ill accept that. Though, from a certain standpoint; you talking about the various types of uniforms: the Air Force could just as easily say: to be used at the Base Uniform Sales Kiosk for Air Force Style Blues ONLY. Not TPUS, flight suits etc...
it could have the benefit of having some perspective / current Seniors look at their weight and or appearance and make changes. Now am I saying that its required? no, Am I trying to drive away an older, overweight vet in the Greys? No Am I trying to discourage the hippie with long hair from signing up? NO. - Nor am I trying ot short change cadets/radios etc...
I'm just giving a source to purchase the AF type uniforms.
My personal deal is this: CAP means Come and Pay to some... but it shouldn't have to.
When I was in the Utah area we had a good relationship with Hill AFB, we had access to the airmans attic. If folks your state have access to these facilities you can get uniforms for free. My group commander here in Texas informed me that if we make the trip to San Antonio we can get the uniforms of the USAF BMT washouts if we help the San Antonio folks sort the uniforms they have.
From my experience if there is a need you can get the uniforms. There is no need for our members to pay for uniforms if they can't afford to do so, we just need to use the resources we have. If your commander isn't willing to find these resources, shame on the commander. If the units that have these resources are not willing to share, shame on them.
Back to "what would you eliminate"
First, lets standardize on a black undershirt, to be worn whenever an undershirt is to be visible. (flight suits, BDUs, BBDUs and Blue flight suit, and heck, even with the golf shirt)
And speaking of the golf shirt - eliminate it. No grade insignia = not really a uniform.
Standardize on a single, distinctive ball cap for all utility and flight uniforms. Probably navy blue, or perhaps ultramarine blue to match the nametapes (and provide a little visibility)
Standardize on a single name badge for everything except the blazer. Make it in two colors (one for cadets) but otherwise identical. (Heck, you could even get down to one that has a single hole in it - put in your grade insignia for the blazer, and a CAP shield for all other uniforms.
Only the USAF blue tie. Even with the blazer. Keep it simple.
Wherever possible, make sure USAF and Corporate uniforms are worn the same way. Same cutouts, same grade insignia, same badges and ribbons....the only difference should be the lack of military awards on the corporate suits. Keep it simple and we're more likely to wear them correctly.
Eliminate the US Flag on the BDUs. We're only going to operate in the US anyway. And if you can't eliminate it, put it on the left shoulder so it's the same as on the flight suits. Simple is better.
Allow USAF outerwear with the TPU. The idea of wearing Army outerwear and claiming its "corporate" is just silly. Either get USAF's permission to wear their stuff (with our insignia) or create non-DoD outerwear.
Fewer uniform choices = more chance of our members wearing them correctly!
Dragoon, I like the ideas for nametags. Been thinking about that one for awhile, just couldn't seem to get them down to just a couple to use. Your idea is brilliantly simple.
Make that even simpler... just use the standard USAF blue namplate, or the new two line blue nameplate. Standardize for all uniforms, both cadet & senior (have to keep the sliver ones for service dress, use the same one one corp-style jacket & blazer).
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 01, 2007, 01:58:14 PM
I know that we are the Unpaid Auxiliary of the Air Force, however. Has it ever been proposed that we be given a uniform allowance? -- Similar to the annual credit CAC carrying personnel receive with which to purchase uniform items? I know that even a little bit could go a long way for ALOT of our membership.
Thoughts?
The Air Force barely has money to issue their airmen ABUs as it is. I really don't think they can afford to issue us all uniforms.
Quote from: dogden on February 01, 2007, 09:22:10 PM
When I was in the Utah area we had a good relationship with Hill AFB, we had access to the airmans attic. If folks your state have access to these facilities you can get uniforms for free. My group commander here in Texas informed me that if we make the trip to San Antonio we can get the uniforms of the USAF BMT washouts if we help the San Antonio folks sort the uniforms they have.
From my experience if there is a need you can get the uniforms. There is no need for our members to pay for uniforms if they can't afford to do so, we just need to use the resources we have. If your commander isn't willing to find these resources, shame on the commander. If the units that have these resources are not willing to share, shame on them.
I'm under the impression that USAF BMT washouts get to keep their BDUs/blues except for outerwear which is recycled to new issue. Garments worn over skin cannot be reissued and are allowed to go home with discharged personnel. It is allowed because it would cost the USAF money to destroy those uniforms vs. no cost if they take them home. But, most active, reserve, and ANG bases do have to get rid of uniforms that are issued and then become unserviceable. Most logistics squadrons keep bins of those to be discarded. Many uniform items there are in good condition and are great for CAP. Most reservists and guardsment get free uniforms every year as opposed to active duty who have to pay for them out of allotment every 2 years I believe, so many uniforms are in VERY good conditions. Speak to your nearest Logistics Sq on a base about this. They may let you raid those bins. Mention that a lot of that will go to cadets and they will be more lenient. Airmens attics are a great suggestion though and I myself have used the one at McGuire. They store uniforms for JROTC units who often just don't show up to pick them up. They were more than happy to give them to us when we showed up even unannounced.
You might also check with the base Brig or Detention Facility, the usually have a closet full of Uniforms from those who get tossed out. Offer to clean out the closet if you can keep the uniforms...
Lose the following:
cadet officer shoulder boards
pre-solo wings
shoulder cords of all descriptions
hats,scarves, and similar accourtrements for Hawk Mtn, various "ranger" schools (allow them to keep patches)
do away with the new Distinctive CAP Service uniform. Or at least provide the uniform to everyone at no cost.
Here's the list on eliminations:
1. Patches from the BDU's. (6)
2. Corporate Service Dress(6)
3. Golf shirts (5)
4. US flag on BDU's (5)
5. Unique Special Activities patches & insignia (4)
6. Cadet officer shoulder boards (4)
7. TPU silver sleeve braid (4)
8. ES patches from flightsuits (4)
9. Pre solo wings (3)
10. Blazer Uniform (3)
11. White undershirts with field uniform. (3)
12. Emergency Services patches (3)
13. Group CC badge (3)
14. New CAP Command Shield (3)
15. Eliminate Command Service ribbon (3)
16. Berets (3)
17. CAP cutouts on Field jackets (2)
18. Plastic flightsuit/utility uniform rank insignia (2)
19. Brightly colored patches on BDU's (2)
20. Flight suit scarf (2)
21. Blue utility uniform {jumpsuit}
22. National Commanders Commendation
23. National Commanders Unit Citation
24. Blue BDU's
25. CAP cutouts on collar for senior member NCOs
26. Multiple Professional Development awards.
27. Flightsuit patches
28. Metal rank insignia from BBDU hat
29. Cadet Orientation pilot ribbon
30. Unit citation Ribbon
31. CAP cutouts on the cadet blues shirts
32. Blue Cardigan
33. Old style service dress
34. Brown t-shirts
35. Blazer tie
36. Silver chin strap on corporate Service Dress
37. Shoulder cords
38. Special activities hats and scarves.
Please, keep in mind that all I did was compile this. I would rather not be called "crazy" or "insane" like in the last thread I did when I compiled what people would be interested in seeing.
There were a few things I did not compile that would have been contrary to what the Air Force does with it's uniforms. But for the most part it's all here.
Got an idea on reducing Senior Member PD ribbons, but I'm gonna put that up on another thread.