Main Menu

Glider Pilots

Started by desert rat, February 19, 2007, 03:51:19 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

davedove

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 22, 2007, 03:51:47 PM
I have heard that same thing about some of the interstates. Never seen anything official, although driving in some areas I'd say its definitely possible.

I've always heard the same thing, but not anything official.  That's supposed to be why there are so many straight patches in the system, so you can land a plane.  And that does make some sense.  If an enemy somehow managed to take out all landing strips, there would still be all those thousands of miles of interstate to land on.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

JohnKachenmeister

That's why the system is called the Interstate and Defense Highway system.

Eisenhower was impressed with the German Autobahns, and the fact that the Luftwaffe used them as airstrips when the 8th Air Force made their bases into rubble. 
Another former CAP officer

sardak

Sorry folks, but the landing strip plan on the Interstates is urban legend (or the Federal Highway Administration has a massive misinformation program trying to hide the plan).  Here is the official site of the  "Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways."

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/homepage.cfm

And if you don't want the long version, here's the short version from the FHwA regarding designing for landing strips.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/mayjun00/onemileinfive.htm

Mike

Al Sayre

In my initial flight training, I was taught that roads are in general poor places to land aircraft for several reasons, traffic, electrical poles and wires that are very hard to see from the air, crowned surfaces, potholes, ditches alongside, mailboxes, fire hydrants and a plethora of other things planted along the edges just waiting to rip the wings off.  Also, your average 2 lane section of road is only 20-30 feet wide, slightly less than the wingspan of many light aircraft... 
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

JohnKachenmeister

During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

Of couse, in 1963, it was only 20 years since World War II, the USAF guy tellig us that didn't say "The Germans."  There was no such thing as "The Germans" then.  The people who lived in the country called Germany were "The F-ing Krauts."

Another former CAP officer

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 23, 2007, 06:19:00 PM
During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on March 23, 2007, 07:19:37 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 23, 2007, 06:19:00 PM
During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

Info? Sources..?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 24, 2007, 09:44:45 AM
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on March 23, 2007, 07:19:37 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 23, 2007, 06:19:00 PM
During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

Info? Sources..?

The key phrase above is "if memory serves"... and mine doesn't always serve as well as I'd like  :-\

When I get a chance I'll check some archives and see if I can find anything on this. From what little I remember, CAP served in a peripheral role at best.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on March 24, 2007, 10:26:35 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 24, 2007, 09:44:45 AM
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on March 23, 2007, 07:19:37 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 23, 2007, 06:19:00 PM
During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

Info? Sources..?

The key phrase above is "if memory serves"... and mine doesn't always serve as well as I'd like  :-\

When I get a chance I'll check some archives and see if I can find anything on this. From what little I remember, CAP served in a peripheral role at best.

Your memory is pretty clear.  CAP had a small role in Operation Recovery, which didn't last all that long anyway.  CAP personnel were considered to back up reservists as flight line personnel, and other semi-skilled jobs where there were shortages of reservists.  Also, CAP planes (which then meant "Member-owned" planes) could be used to cross-level personnel.  Fly selected folks from areas where there were too many reservists to areas having not enough.

Transfer of weapons systems was classified then, so I can't tell you the plan for that, but I'm sure there was one, because the whole idea of the plan was to "Recover" for a second strike.
Another former CAP officer

SAR-EMT1

As to the weapons system reference: Meaning to say CAP members might have a hand in launching a second strike of ICBMs? Or just relocating the  crews?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

JohnKachenmeister

Not ICBM's.  Regular air-droppable nukes... What the manned bombers carried.
Another former CAP officer

SAR-EMT1

Ok, my mistake.. but my question still stands: in relation to wepons systems, what role could CAP possibly play?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

JohnKachenmeister

CAP had no role in the movement of weapons systems.  That's why we were not briefed on the classified aspects of Operation Recovery.  We knew that somehow, somebody was to bring them, and somehow, somebody was to guard them until they were put into a bomber, but we had no specific knowledge beyond that which we could figure out based on the mission statement itself.

CAP's role was to augment the USAF Reserve, providing base services when possible and when needed to make up for any personnel shortfalls.  Also, to use planes to cross-level USAF Reservists from places where there were too many folks to places with not enough.

When I said "I can't tell you..." I wasn't being secretive.  I can't tell you because I don't know.  Nobody told me.
Another former CAP officer

SJFedor

Quote from: Al Sayre on March 23, 2007, 03:40:03 AM
In my initial flight training, I was taught that roads are in general poor places to land aircraft for several reasons, traffic, electrical poles and wires that are very hard to see from the air, crowned surfaces, potholes, ditches alongside, mailboxes, fire hydrants and a plethora of other things planted along the edges just waiting to rip the wings off.  Also, your average 2 lane section of road is only 20-30 feet wide, slightly less than the wingspan of many light aircraft... 

True, but once I'm down at the level where things may rip my wings off, they've just about served as much purpose as they can, and they're welcome to leave. It'll slow me down a bit  ;D

Besides, you gotta admit, if you crash on a paved road, you'll be a lot more easily found then putting it down in the trees. Maybe not immediately found, but odds are, in a few hours, at least someone will notice that the road is now closed due to the addition of a cessna in the northbound lane.

Although, the DOT may be upset that you made a rather large pothole for them to fix in the next 3-5 years, funding permitting.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

SarDragon

Quote from: SJFedor on March 26, 2007, 03:41:30 PM[portions redacted] Besides, you gotta admit, if you crash on a paved road, you'll be a lot more easily found then putting it down in the trees. Maybe not immediately found, but odds are, in a few hours, at least someone will notice that the road is now closed due to the addition of a cessna in the northbound lane.

Although, the DOT may be upset that you made a rather large pothole for them to fix in the next 3-5 years, funding permitting.

Here in Sunny San Diego, we have had several instances of light aircraft making emergency landings on a 6 lane wide city street near one of our GA airports, and even the one that crashed hard didn't make much of a dent. Each incident did cause quite a stir, though.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Chris Jacobs

While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 26, 2007, 08:32:31 PM
While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

We were talking about the planned use of sections of interstates (NOT 2-lane country roads) as emergency military airfields.  Not emergency landings, per se, but landing USAF aircraft on them in order to rearm them and send them back up to fight if their bases had been nuked.

Eisenhower got the idea from the Germans, who used the Autobahn as a runway for planes up to and including the ME-262.  It was also included in the thinking for Operation Recovery.  I do believe, however, that there were no specific provisions in the law requiring 1 mile straight for every 5 miles generally.  That would be an engineering nightmare in mountainous terrain.
Another former CAP officer

SJFedor

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 26, 2007, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 26, 2007, 08:32:31 PM
While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

We were talking about the planned use of sections of interstates (NOT 2-lane country roads) as emergency military airfields.  Not emergency landings, per se, but landing USAF aircraft on them in order to rearm them and send them back up to fight if their bases had been nuked.

Eisenhower got the idea from the Germans, who used the Autobahn as a runway for planes up to and including the ME-262.  It was also included in the thinking for Operation Recovery.  I do believe, however, that there were no specific provisions in the law requiring 1 mile straight for every 5 miles generally.  That would be an engineering nightmare in mountainous terrain.

As is proved on a good portion of I-40 in Tennessee going through the mtns between nashville and knoxville. There's spots that the only straight, level piece of roadway that could possibly be suitable for any type of aircraft operations are the bridges going over rivers and such.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: SJFedor on March 28, 2007, 04:25:50 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 26, 2007, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 26, 2007, 08:32:31 PM
While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

We were talking about the planned use of sections of interstates (NOT 2-lane country roads) as emergency military airfields.  Not emergency landings, per se, but landing USAF aircraft on them in order to rearm them and send them back up to fight if their bases had been nuked.

Eisenhower got the idea from the Germans, who used the Autobahn as a runway for planes up to and including the ME-262.  It was also included in the thinking for Operation Recovery.  I do believe, however, that there were no specific provisions in the law requiring 1 mile straight for every 5 miles generally.  That would be an engineering nightmare in mountainous terrain.

As is proved on a good portion of I-40 in Tennessee going through the mtns between nashville and knoxville. There's spots that the only straight, level piece of roadway that could possibly be suitable for any type of aircraft operations are the bridges going over rivers and such.

Been there.  Also the switchback section near Cold Mountain between Gatlinburg and Asheville, NC.  The only straight road stretches are in tunnels, which are notoriously hard to land in! 
Another former CAP officer