CAP membership in military flying clubs

[Eclipse]

As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.

Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

The Nellis Cadet Squadron meets on base and has no problem with not military members joining.  I know of no CAP members that have ever had a problem getting onto base to do CAP buisness.  Just because the squadron is on base does not mean you can or should limit who can join.

Um, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining sprcial access and then not participating in CAP.

[lordmonar]

Um, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining special access and then not participating in CAP.

Already answered that...2b them if they don't participate, its not rocket science.

I was addressing my specific concern that on base units may think that they are not allowed to recruit non-military/mil-dep members.  I was pointing out, that on Nellis AFB we have no problems with non-military people joining the squadron and getting access to the base.

[sandman]

Um, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining special access and then not participating in CAP.

Already answered that...2b them if they don't participate, its not rocket science.

You have that option of course, but John brings up a great point:

Just a thought.  I'd be careful about using the 2B to get rid of "Dead weight."

I used to have some dead weights in the squadron I commanded.  Nice guys, but theu just wanted the uniform and the rank, and didn't want to do anything.  I couldn't count on them for missions, for meetings, to give classes, nothing.

But once in a while, rarely, when I REALLY needed help, I'd call these guys, and sometimes they came through.  It might be just to drive some cadets up to an activity, or help out at a project for a day, but once in a while, these slugs actually helped.

I can't give you any advice for bringling these guys along, since I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if you 2B them they're gone forever, and so is any chance to EVER use them for anything.

Let's be thankful for all of our volunteers, even if they only show up once a year (or less ). I salute each one of you for the time you give as a volunteer !

[flyguy06]

Just some thoughts...

Other than stirring up the pot, and making us look bad, there's little value in trying to knock guys down from the aero club for non CAP-participation.

With that said, it might be time to review the requirements for their participation with the CC of that club, perhaps a waiting period, or active status w/CAP.  Not all CAP pilots are mission pilots, but transport is not unreasonable.

He may be paying NHQ dues, but that is no guarantee the unit's getting anything.

A member on your roster, in name only, might as well not be.  Kick him to your wing's inactive squadron, or the national reserve squadron,

Based on the comments on the attitude of the unit CC, it sounds like he doesn't care, so you're better off dropping it.  

I respect your service as well, but the "I spent a year in the sandbox" comments are going to get old around your unit after a while.

The comment is already old. I apoligize for using it. It was uneccessary.

[lordmonar]

Um, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining special access and then not participating in CAP.

Already answered that...2b them if they don't participate, its not rocket science.

You have that option of course, but John brings up a great point:

Just a thought.  I'd be careful about using the 2B to get rid of "Dead weight."

I used to have some dead weights in the squadron I commanded.  Nice guys, but theu just wanted the uniform and the rank, and didn't want to do anything.  I couldn't count on them for missions, for meetings, to give classes, nothing.

But once in a while, rarely, when I REALLY needed help, I'd call these guys, and sometimes they came through.  It might be just to drive some cadets up to an activity, or help out at a project for a day, but once in a while, these slugs actually helped.

I can't give you any advice for bringing these guys along, since I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if you 2B them they're gone forever, and so is any chance to EVER use them for anything.

Let's be thankful for all of our volunteers, even if they only show up once a year (or less ). I salute each one of you for the time you give as a volunteer !

Oh...I know what you mean....this is a non issue.  If a guy pays his dues and does not bring discredit to CAP I care less why he joined or if he ever shows up again.   I'll take his money and ignore him.

I was only pointing out...if someone really does have a problem of any member not being active in CAP, all he has to do is serve a 2b and be done with it.

If a guy joins CAP to be eligible for aero club membership....who cares, if he joins so he can get cheap flight time on the air craft...who cares....if he joins just to be an "officer" and stroke his ego...who cares?

All I care about is does this individual stand up and take a job and follows through on his commitments.  If he is taking up proficiency flying time but never shows up for SAREXs or real missions (and does not have a valid excuse) I will take the appropriate action (such as cutting him out of the flight schedule).  If he becomes a liability to the program then I 2b him.

Again guys...it's not rocket science.

[sandman]

Oh...I know what you mean....this is a non issue.  If a guy pays his dues and does not bring discredit to CAP I care less why he joined or if he ever shows up again.   I'll take his money and ignore him.

I was only pointing out...if someone really does have a problem of any member not being active in CAP, all he has to do is serve a 2b and be done with it.

If a guy joins CAP to be eligible for aero club membership....who cares, if he joins so he can get cheap flight time on the air craft...who cares....if he joins just to be an "officer" and stroke his ego...who cares?

All I care about is does this individual stand up and take a job and follows through on his commitments.  If he is taking up proficiency flying time but never shows up for SAREXs or real missions (and does not have a valid excuse) I will take the appropriate action (such as cutting him out of the flight schedule).  If he becomes a liability to the program then I 2b him.

Again guys...it's not rocket science.

Well said.

[wingnut]

What is a 2B I have been reading BB, and 2b, how can you fire a CAP member by serving a 2B because you don't like them?? does not sound professional

please explain

[arajca]

CAP Form 2B is the form used to terminate a membership.

[wingnut]

9. Demotions. If an officer fails to perform the duties satisfactorily or conducts himself/herself in a manner unbecoming his or her grade, the unit commander will recommend demotion to an appropriate grade. The unit commander will initiate this action on a CAPF 2, which will be routed through channels to the promoting authority, who is also the demoting authority. The demoting authority will indicate approval or disapproval and sign the CAPF 2. If approved, he or she will forward it to National Headquarters for validation; if disapproved, he or she will return it through channels to the unit commander. National Headquarters will return the CAPF 2 effecting the demotion through channels with a membership card showing the senior member's new grade. After the new grade has been posted to the member's personnel file, the CAPF 2 and membership card will be given to the member concerned by the unit commander, or commander's designated representative, who will retrieve and destroy the membership card showing the member's former grade. NOTE: Chaplains will not be demoted. A chaplain who fails to perform his or her duties satisfactorily or whose conduct is unbecoming will be terminated from membership in Civil Air Patrol in accordance with CAPR 35-5.

Ok

Reading 35-5  WOW powerful tool for getting rid of deadbeats

[RiverAux]

I know it is commonly used against cadets in my area for not attending meetings and similar issues.  Rarely have I seen it used against seniors, other than in mostly "political" situations. 

[bosshawk]

Without looking up the 35-5 words, I seem to recall that there is a 2c paragraph: which blocks the renewal of membership.  I used that once in a situation that I don't care to discuss in public.  Will be willing to describe it in a PM, if anyone is interested.  The incident in question was not "political" in any sense of the word.

It worked and that was all that was necessary.

[lordmonar]

Without looking up the 35-5 words, I seem to recall that there is a 2c paragraph: which blocks the renewal of membership.  I used that once in a situation that I don't care to discuss in public.  Will be willing to describe it in a PM, if anyone is interested.  The incident in question was not "political" in any sense of the word.

It worked and that was all that was necessary.

Can't find that in either 35-5 or 35-3.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Without looking up the 35-5 words, I seem to recall that there is a 2c paragraph: which blocks the renewal of membership.  I used that once in a situation that I don't care to discuss in public.  Will be willing to describe it in a PM, if anyone is interested.  The incident in question was not "political" in any sense of the word.

It worked and that was all that was necessary.

Can't find that in either 35-5 or 35-3.

Wasn't the 2c option removed around the same time that the MARB was established?

[wingnut]

wow it just seems like a lot of this is a major slander and libel suit waiting to happen, I mean can we all just get along. Secret tribunals and and all that maybe we should have our own GITMO, lets profile the wierd looking seniors and they can't fly on a SAR, maybe we can eliminate all the green party members too, and everyone over 50 (oh rats that means me too)

No just kidding I really mean all democrats who drive green cars

[bosshawk]

2c could certainly have been removed.  It has been at least 5 or 6 years since I used it and I haven't been a Sq CC for almost that long.  Just brought it up to point out one more avenue for dealing with those who we don't want or can't use.  This particular member disobeyed a direct order from me: don't pay to do that with me.

[RiverAux]

Ahh, the old non-renewal option.  I've heard many tales of it being used, again mostly for political reasons, but never any first hand knowledge. 

[flyguy06]

Well, if you had a Squadron of 20 members and 4 werent pulling their weight, then yeah, it wouldnt mater. But when you have a Squadron of 12 members and 7 arent pulling their weight, it effects the squadron.

[Dragoon]

You cannot 2B a senior member for not participating.  It's not listed in the regs as a reason to terminate.  Just for cadets.

You COULD try to demote them, as not participating sounds like grounds for the non-performance clause.  But I doubt it would stick, as they would point out all the deadwood folks in the Wing Ghost squadron who aren't participating either, and haven't been demoted!

This is yet ANOTHER good reason for active and inactive membership categories - then you could work with the flying club to make sure they only admit and keep active CAP members.  (incidentally, that's what the local club here does, but they use a memo from the CAP Squadron CC as proof of "active" status.  A category in the National database would sure make life easier...)

[arajca]

Ahh, the old non-renewal option.  I've heard many tales of it being used, again mostly for political reasons, but never any first hand knowledge. 

It's no longer an option. From what I heard, too many unit/cc's were using it without informing the member (there was no requirement to do so), and the member found out six months later when they tried to renew. Since they didn't appeal the action within the proscribed time limit (30 days?) because they were never told about the action, they were screwed.

[lordmonar]

This goes back to the active/inactive debate.

Who cares?  So a guy joins CAP so he can get access to the aero club and never shows up again.  It is the aero clubs problem not CAP's.

Here in Nevada we have CAP license plates.  They guy fills out the form the CC signs it and he has the plates. (they cost extra by the way).  If the guy goes inactive....who cares?  We are tasking the unit CC's to monitor a persons activities and making him go trough hoops to remove the "perks" the inactive person has.

Again...who cares.  So long as they are not giving CAP a bad name...I've got better things to worry about.